Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[Miller Time]

It took less than 123 games for Pacioretty to start showing signs of dominance, and he himself had an atypical progression. So yeah. Odds are not in Kotkaniemi's favor.

age is more than a number

 

[Archijerej]

That’s my point - there’s nothing wrong if KK tops out as an NHL regular 3C, since it’s becoming more evident there was no clear cut top line talent after Svechnikov in the projected top-10 of 2018 draft.

It’s not as if the Habs missed out on a Marner, Seth Jones or Pettersson by selecting KK ....that’s where context needs to come into play

I disagree. Hughes may never be a true first pair D, but one of the best point producing defenceman in the NHL has tremendous value. Let's not fool ourselves.

Same with a power forward like Tkachuk.

The only scenario when a #3C would be ok is if Kotkaniemi developed into an exceptional defensive player, which I don't see happening. Drafting Alexander Wennberg 3OA is a major flop.

 

[salbutera]

I disagree. Hughes may never be a true first pair D, but one of the best point producing defenceman in the NHL has tremendous value. Let's not fool ourselves.

Same with a power forward like Tkachuk.

The only scenario when a #3C would be ok is if Kotkaniemi developed into an exceptional defensive player, which I don't see happening. Drafting Alexander Wennberg 3OA is a major flop.

Tkachuk doesn’t look like he’ll be a 35, 40 but more like a 25G power forward ...that’s Anderson territory.

As for Hughes, everyone knows aside from Leafs, NHL coaches & GMs view DZone consistency as critical for their top-4D. Hughes is trending more towards Krug type rover

Keep in mind things change, 5-years after 2003 draft many would’ve said Staal or Parise was the best player, today it’s likely Bergeron

When is the proper time to draw a line in the sand and come to a conclusion on draft success?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I mean playing good defense is part of any strategy lol

no team goes out there aiming to play bad defense.

What I questioned in your post was the logic behind spending that much money on goaltending (over 13M) and not to mention in defense-first Dmen (Weber, Chiarot, Edmunson, Savard) and still playing a defense-first system.

seems to me if you’re going to invest that much capital in your goaltending and defense…it should afford you to play more aggressively offensively with your forwards…

Thus not requiring the need to absolutely ice a lineup with an all-defensive Center playing 18 mins a game.

Either way…we’re straying away from the thread topic, so my bad.

Playing good Defense vs actually performing well in that area are different. Habs do not go on that run without their defensive 1st structure. You won't move me off that stance.

We shut down a lot of offensive stars along the way and even contained Tampa's deadly PP.

 

[Kents polished head]

Pacioretty starting showing signs of dominance when he got an actual opportunity to play with some talent night and night out in the top 6.

Prior to that..his usage looked a lot like KKs

3rd line…sometimes 4th line…healthy scratch.

y’all got short memories man

Of course... I forgot how Anderson and Toffoli (our top 2 goal scorers last season) are not enough for sa majesté Kotkaniemi lol.

As for Pacioretty, what the hell are you even talking about? He started 2009-2010 on the first line with Gomez and Gionta and was even used extensively with them for a huge chunk of that training camp. A single Google search was enough to find an article about that;
Gomez-Gionta: Martin tente le Diable...

When he ultimately came back to Montreal for good, he was used with the same guys, again
«Je peux aider en bloquant la vue du gardien»

He was given opportunities. Like Kotkaniemi. But he ended up getting "it" and deserved his spot more than a year and a half after that... still playing with Gionta and Gomez.
Players win their ice time. It's not the other way around. And it's not always about linemates.

 

[Miller Time]

I challenge anyone here to come up with 3 videos where the guy fed a teammate with an obvious scoring chance by passing the puck on his tape.

really?


The maturation of Jesperi Kotkaniemi

Then, Kotkaniemi’s vision opened the scoring for Montreal, as his partnership with Artturi Lehkonen paid off. While in full stride through the neutral zone Kotkaniemi took a feed from Jeff Petry, blew by Jesse Puljujarvi and entered the Oilers zone with ease. From there he didn’t hold up and try to find a seam, Kotkaniemi pulled the puck back as he drifted across the slot, drawing an Oilers defender out of position. Once he read that he fed a pass to Lehkonen who easily flicked the puck over Mike Smith’s shoulder to open the scoring.


On the advanced stats side of things, Kotkaniemi was a star once again, and he did so against two of the best in the NHL on a given night. According to NaturalStatTrick, in the 6:54 of five-on-five ice time he had against Leon Draisaitl, Kotkaniemi controlled 75% of the shot attempts, and generated five scoring chances while allowing none against.
That’s not all. Against Connor McDavid, Kotkaniemi also controlled 75% of the shot attempts while producing four scoring chances and allowing none.
What’s perhaps the most impressive is that Kotkaniemi did all of this while being the fourth least used forward at five-on-five. The only forwards who played less was the line of Eric Staal, Corey Perry, and Jonathan Drouin.


you can learn how to google if you want more videos...


Scotty Bowman's high praise of Kotkaniemi included comparisons to Habs legend - Article - BARDOWN

also might want to check out Scotty Bowman's take... maybe you can educate him as well about how little he knows of things like vision

 

[417]

I disagree but whatever. It's obvious has hit a wall after his first season. He looks the same player (albit a tad stronger) than he was at 18years AND even less creative.

Well the coaching staff has done a great job of sucking out any creativity from him in favor of "playing it safe"

So it's not all that surprising.

The AHL is an incredible development league for young players, they learn to be pro and that they have to push their game a notch if they want to be called up.

So is the NHL..

The NHL is a survival league, you need to be consistent and perform or another player get your spot.

Not really... depends who and how he is favored by the coaching staff.

KK has never had to push his game up only to limit his mistakes. Now he does not look like a top line center and it seems more like his career trajectory is a 3rd/4th line center with some offensive flair from time to time.

He's never been used or even considered as top line center for this team.

I'm not sure how anyone can really call they right now.

 

[Kents polished head]

really?


The maturation of Jesperi Kotkaniemi

Then, Kotkaniemi’s vision opened the scoring for Montreal, as his partnership with Artturi Lehkonen paid off. While in full stride through the neutral zone Kotkaniemi took a feed from Jeff Petry, blew by Jesse Puljujarvi and entered the Oilers zone with ease. From there he didn’t hold up and try to find a seam, Kotkaniemi pulled the puck back as he drifted across the slot, drawing an Oilers defender out of position. Once he read that he fed a pass to Lehkonen who easily flicked the puck over Mike Smith’s shoulder to open the scoring.


On the advanced stats side of things, Kotkaniemi was a star once again, and he did so against two of the best in the NHL on a given night. According to NaturalStatTrick, in the 6:54 of five-on-five ice time he had against Leon Draisaitl, Kotkaniemi controlled 75% of the shot attempts, and generated five scoring chances while allowing none against.
That’s not all. Against Connor McDavid, Kotkaniemi also controlled 75% of the shot attempts while producing four scoring chances and allowing none.
What’s perhaps the most impressive is that Kotkaniemi did all of this while being the fourth least used forward at five-on-five. The only forwards who played less was the line of Eric Staal, Corey Perry, and Jonathan Drouin.


you can learn how to google if you want more videos...


Scotty Bowman's high praise of Kotkaniemi included comparisons to Habs legend - Article - BARDOWN

also might want to check out Scotty Bowman's take... maybe you can educate him as well about how little he knows of things like vision

Wow! He performed a successful pass to a player skating in from the outside! Stop the press! That's the best example you could come up with? Now find 2 more. I'll "learn how to use google" when you learn how to count to 3. Is that good for a deal?

Of course, coupled with a bunch of idiotic statistics that fit your narrative, and a Scotty Bowman interview that dates back from 2 years and a half ago.

Man. I'm out of arguments. You win. lol. We definitely have a franchise players in our hands.

 

[417]

Also Pacioretty was 22 years old when he started to break out.

In Pacioretty’s 20 year old season he played 34 games and had 3 goals and 11 points. The next season he played 52 games and had 3 goals and 14 games.

I remember...same crap going on in this thread was going on then too.

Never fails.

 

[Miller Time]

Wow! He performed a successful pass to a player skating in from the outside! Stop the press! That's the best example you could come up with?
Of course, coupled with a bunch of idiotic statistics that fit your narrative, and a Scotty Bowman interview that dates back from 2 years and a half ago.

Man. I'm out of arguments. You win. lol. We definitely have a franchise players in our hands.

actually, you haven't offered any half-decent argument yet... that's the issue, bad takes built off of bad arguments are what they are...

there's no winning, though hopefully fewer garbage posts clogging up this thread may be an outcome

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

It took less than 123 games for Pacioretty to start showing signs of dominance, and he himself had an atypical progression. So yeah. Odds are not in Kotkaniemi's favor.

and how many ahl games?

 

[417]

Playing good Defense vs actually performing well in that area are different. Habs do not go on that run without their defensive 1st structure. You won't move me off that stance.

We shut down a lot of offensive starts along the way and even contained Tampa's deadly PP.

Last thing I'll say about this in this thread...cause it's about Kotkaniemi and this conversation isn't really related.

But it's different applying strategy in the playoffs then it is in the regular season.

When you're facing a specific team for 4-7 games...you can employ a specific strategy.

But for 82 games...it's completely different.

One doesn't apply to the other IMO.

Playing Danault 20 mins a game during the playoffs worked fine. You do what you gotta do to win and part of winning included doing that or...scratching KK.

I got no issues with that.

But again...for 82 games...that won't work and we have applied evidence in the form of missed playoffs, as proof.

 

[Kents polished head]

and how many ahl games?

45. Which, in addition to his NHL games, still amount to less than the amount of games Kotkaniemi has played so far.

 

[Kents polished head]

actually, you haven't offered any half-decent argument yet... that's the issue, bad takes built off of bad arguments are what they are...

there's no winning, though hopefully fewer garbage posts clogging up this thread may be an outcome

You're one to speak about garbage posts. All that while trying to make a point using a statistic like points / 60 minutes played. Bravo champion.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Last thing I'll say about this in this thread...cause it's about Kotkaniemi and this conversation isn't really related.

But it's different applying strategy in the playoffs then it is in the regular season.

When you're facing a specific team for 4-7 games...you can employ a specific strategy.

But for 82 games...it's completely different.

One doesn't apply to the other IMO.

Playing Danault 20 mins a game during the playoffs worked fine. You do what you gotta do to win and part of winning included doing that or...scratching KK.

I got no issues with that.

But again...for 82 games...that won't work and we have applied evidence in the form of missed playoffs, as proof.

Fair. I just feel that the Habs recipe for success is to be a top 10 or top 5 defensive team and a top 15 offensive team. Being in the middle in both categories won't end up well IMO.

 

[417]

Of course... I forgot how Anderson and Toffoli (our top 2 goal scorers last season) are not enough for sa majesté Kotkaniemi lol.

Did you see how long he played with both?

The sample was very small not to mention it wasn't consistent.

He didn't benefit from consistent linemates all year and typically centered whoever was coldest.

As for Pacioretty, what the hell are you even talking about? He started 2009-2010 on the first line with Gomez and Gionta and was even used extensively with them for a huge chunk of that training camp. A single Google search was enough to find an article about that;
Gomez-Gionta: Martin tente le Diable...

Cool story...how long did that last?

When he ultimately came back to Montreal for good, he was used with the same guys, again
«Je peux aider en bloquant la vue du gardien»

He was given opportunities. Like Kotkaniemi. But he ended up getting "it" and deserved his spot more than a year and a half after that... still playing with Gionta and Gomez.
Players win their ice time. It's not the other way around. And it's not always about linemates.

You have a poor recollection of the events leading up to that and how it came about.

I don't.

 

[417]

Fair. I just feel that the Habs recipe for success is to be a top 10 or top 5 defensive team and a top 15 offensive team. Being in the middle in both categories won't end up well IMO.

Best way to be a top defensive team is to put pressure on teams offensively and not only own the puck (which the Habs are pretty good at) but also execute plays that turn into goals (something the Habs struggle with).

No great defensive team spends their time defending.

 

[salbutera]

Best way to be a top defensive team is to put pressure on teams offensively and not only own the puck (which the Habs are pretty good at) but also execute plays that turn into goals (something the Habs struggle with).

No great defensive team spends their time defending.

NJD did and so do present Isles team, Habs have in fact been one of the best 5-on-5 puck possession teams during the regular season going on 3-years now

Leafs on the other hand “put pressure on teams offensively and not only own the puck but also execute plays that turn into goals”, yet are a sieve like defensive team who don’t comprehend or recognize the situational details of defensive structure

 

[Habs Halifax]

Best way to be a top defensive team is to put pressure on teams offensively and not only own the puck (which the Habs are pretty good at) but also execute plays that turn into goals (something the Habs struggle with).

No great defensive team spends their time defending.

Turning our roster into that type of offensively dominate team you are referring too is not attainable. Not even the Leafs or Oilers can shelter defensive flaws. This is not the NBA where you can play McDavid 90% of the time.

Teams that have had playoff success are strong in net and with team defense. Reality. The offense added to that is important as well but you go nowhere without a strong team defense

 

[CHfan1]

45. Which, in addition to his NHL games, still amount to less than the amount of games Kotkaniemi has played so far.

82 games in the AHL (37 in 2008-09, 18 in 2009-10, 27 in 2010-11). He also played a season at Michigan as a 19 year old to help him develop before turning pro.

 

[417]

NJD did and so do present Isles team, Habs have in fact been one of the best 5-on-5 puck possession teams during the regular season going on 3-years now

NJD? You talking about the 90s trap era Devils?

Islanders?

Hmmm..not sure they really applies but let's say it does.

Pointing out the exception doesn't make it the rule.

Barry Trotz is an amazing coach...there aren't too many coaches in the NHL who get as much out of their players as he does and when he's coaching the Montreal Canadiens.

I might changr my stance on that...but until then....

 

[417]

Turning our roster into that type of offensively dominate team you are referring too is not attainable. Not even the Leafs or Oilers can shelter defensive flaws. This is not the NBA where you can play McDavid 90% of the time.

Teams that have had playoff success are strong in net and with team defense. Reality. The offense added to that is important as well but you go nowhere without a strong team defense

We got that covered...no need to triple down on it.

Goaltending & Defense hasn't been an issue for this team for 40 years lol.

 

[Heffyhoof]

really?


The maturation of Jesperi Kotkaniemi

Then, Kotkaniemi’s vision opened the scoring for Montreal, as his partnership with Artturi Lehkonen paid off. While in full stride through the neutral zone Kotkaniemi took a feed from Jeff Petry, blew by Jesse Puljujarvi and entered the Oilers zone with ease. From there he didn’t hold up and try to find a seam, Kotkaniemi pulled the puck back as he drifted across the slot, drawing an Oilers defender out of position. Once he read that he fed a pass to Lehkonen who easily flicked the puck over Mike Smith’s shoulder to open the scoring.


On the advanced stats side of things, Kotkaniemi was a star once again, and he did so against two of the best in the NHL on a given night. According to NaturalStatTrick, in the 6:54 of five-on-five ice time he had against Leon Draisaitl, Kotkaniemi controlled 75% of the shot attempts, and generated five scoring chances while allowing none against.
That’s not all. Against Connor McDavid, Kotkaniemi also controlled 75% of the shot attempts while producing four scoring chances and allowing none.
What’s perhaps the most impressive is that Kotkaniemi did all of this while being the fourth least used forward at five-on-five. The only forwards who played less was the line of Eric Staal, Corey Perry, and Jonathan Drouin.


you can learn how to google if you want more videos...


Scotty Bowman's high praise of Kotkaniemi included comparisons to Habs legend - Article - BARDOWN

also might want to check out Scotty Bowman's take... maybe you can educate him as well about how little he knows of things like vision

So now Kotkaniemi also sucks at passing the puck and creating scoring chances? The takes on this thread are getting more and more embarrassing.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We got that covered...no need to triple down on it.

Sure, what about the 1st part? Even if we add Eichel, we still need to be defensively strong. And if you talk how Defensive structure is not as important as offense, you are going to get the broken record

 

[Kents polished head]

Did you see how long he played with both?

The sample was very small not to mention it wasn't consistent.

He didn't benefit from consistent linemates all year and typically centered whoever was coldest.



Cool story...how long did that last?


You have a poor recollection of the events leading up to that and how it came about.

I don't.

Oh believe me, I remember him crying about how he'd rather be sent to the AHL than be used on a 4th line. But in the end, the guy reapeatedly got opportunities with Gomez and Gionta, and he just wasn't up to the task. That's why he could not deliver and that's why he was always sent back in a depth role.

He was given opportunities. He was not a 4th line player/healthy scratch from the get-go like you're trying to push as a fact.

If your narrative was any true, the simple fact to have 1st line minutes and being put on a line with Gionta and Gomez should have been enough to make him produce in the first place. But it didn't. And the guy ultimately had success when he came back.

Something happened in between and it's not that he got a "better opportunity". He simply made progress and was ready for a bigger role. And this time, the coaching staff could not bring him back down the lineup, because he proved he was ready to take on the role. Not because they felt like keeping him there.