Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[Habs Halifax]

I agree, he wouldn't have got the spot usually. His rookie camp was the meh one, he started to show something in the training camp and especially in the exhibition games because he wasn't sent back to Finland. He took giant development leap between August and April that season. I see no way that steep of a curve to happen if he was playing here instead (in Finland that is). But after that there has been questionable decisions by his training group and the team (or coaches more likely).

I understand though why people say they shouldn't have rushed him. It raised the expectations way up when in reality his physique was always going to make him a long term project. Maybe the team should've communicated better with the community about the matter. Or maybe they got too excited too and thought he was going to be ready in two years.

There is no other way we can spin it. Habs had a very bad drafting record from 08-15 and that caused ripple effects. They ended up trying to improve the team through trades and UFA signings and anytime we had a decent prospect, they were rushed. Thankfully, our pool is not thin anymore and we don't have to rush guys. KK might have been the last one and even Romanov and Caufield sat in game 1 for the playoffs. Make then earn a spot, not place them there and watch them struggle.

KK's offensive development years were bypassed cause we asked him to focus on D and 200' game in the NHL. Suzuki had his offensive development years in the OHL before we asked him to mature in the 200' game.

* Suzuki went from a very good offensive year at age 19 in OHL, then to the NHL. Played top line minutes.

* KK went from a bottom 6 role in the Liiga league (draft year) to a 3C role in the NHL. Not smart management and as a result, it's going to take him time to put it all together.

 

[Habs Icing]

Nope.

at 19 he was in the WHL.

May 2012 he turned 20... still in the WHL.

Played his first NHL games during the 2012-13 season, closer to 21 as he played the first 36 games of that season in the AHL.

Brendan Gallagher Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

His first taste of NHL hockey came in his D+3 season,

i swear, the lengths some of you want to go to try and build some silly narrative about JKO's deficiencies is ridiculous.

My bad. He was 20 not 19. Still falls in the parameters set by the OP - 18, 19, or 20 year olds..

 

[Habs Icing]

KK had 8 points in the playoffs. 8. He had 4 the year before.

For all the talk of "playoff KK" that PPG over a season is what? 35 points?

Better than he's been in the regular season but we should probably be hoping for more than a 35 point season from KK going forward.

If he's a 2nd center you hope for more but if he's only a 3rd that's not bad.

P.S. It's a couple of years I've been saying KK is a 3rd center in the making so I'm not upset with his progress. I'm simply upset with TT for the usual first-round screw-up.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I would not even count his 1st two years. His age 18 and 19 years were development. I think his age 22 or 23 season is where you see him show his top potential. Next season is his transition with more opportunities! It’s there for him to take

He can't get more opportunities without the club being willing to give him some.

Was he great against Tampa? No, but neither were 2/3 of the forwards. Staal was slower and more useless for sure.

I think that KK needs to be 2nd centre this year and play through his ups and downs. We will reap the dividends in a year or so, and for a long time.

 

[Miller Time]

Well, clearly contexts doesn't matter.

Kk got most of his goals against Toronto and the first game against Winnipeg. After that I don't believe he got any.

Suzuki's ppg is flat is a bad thing now ? Still producing a solid clip for a young player. Caufields's first playoffs after playing a handful of NHL games.

Suzuki got more pp time than KK would have, but out PP sucks and 5 on 5 the other team is more concerned about shutting down Suzuki and Caufield than they would be shutting down KK. This stat is akin to people who show 5 on 5 production and see Gallagher, or Danault around, or ahead of some very talented players.

You missed the point.

 

[Miller Time]

lol. You guys are too much.

"Suzuki's PPG was flat"

No shit sherlock. He lead the team in scoring two years in a row. Somehow this is supposed to be a bad thing and a testament for Kotkaniemi who was scratched by the coaching staff for the last two games.

Let me guess. Because Julien, Muller, Ducharme, Richardson and Burrows are all idiots?

Context.

Matters also when reading a post.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He can't get more opportunities without the club being willing to give him some.

Was he great against Tampa? No, but neither were 2/3 of the forwards. Staal was slower and more useless for sure.

I think that KK needs to be 2nd centre this year and play through his ups and downs. We will reap the dividends in a year or so, and for a long time.

Habs want him to be better in his own zone and the areas that don't show up on the score sheet. Basically, they want him to listen to instructions like Suzuki has. Once he figures that part out (consistency), Ducharme will trust him more. It's basically the same development approach Tampa had with Drouin. Offensive skills are nice but get it through your thick skull that you need to be aware and focus on the 200' game. This is the NHL, not a junior league

This is not a 100% rebuilding team where we just placed them and let them play. Kotkaniemi has work to do to earn trust. It's much deeper than his offensive potential

 

[Miller Time]

My bad. He was 20 not 19. Still falls in the parameters set by the OP - 18, 19, or 20 year olds..

Keep moving the goal post... doesn't make your take any better.

 

[Garnet76]

With the short off season I don't expect anything more from KK this year in regards to his physical ability. Just not enough time to increase strength and work on his skating in my opinion.

 

[Habs Icing]

Keep moving the goal post... doesn't make your take any better.

I'm not moving any goalposts. You just suffer from vertigo. Go read the original post.

 

[Habs Icing]

With the short off season I don't expect anything more from KK this year in regards to his physical ability. Just not enough time to increase strength and work on his skating in my opinion.

If there's not enough time then he should try to improve just one of those foibles.

 

[Habby4Life]

It really is when you think about it.

Both players drafted 3rd overall

Both players rushed to the NHL.

Both players started on the 3rd line

Both players pushed aside for local players with lesser talent.

You'd think they would learn from their mistakes...

No, they just drafted guys who were not very good!

 

[Miller Time]

I'm not moving any goalposts. You just suffer from vertigo. Go read the original post.

I did.

Your post (which you've already partially acknowledged) was wrong.
Making excuses to try and make it less wrong only highlights how thin the ice is beneath your bloated take.

Vertigo indeed lol

 

[Habs Icing]

I did.

Your post (which you've already partially acknowledged) was wrong.
Making excuses to try and make it less wrong only highlights how thin the ice is beneath your bloated take.

Vertigo indeed lol

You obviously did not so I'll post here for your convenience.

Those players weren't in the NHL at 18/19/20...Try again please?

 

[Kents polished head]

Context.

Matters also when reading a post.

lol. Let's get into that then, shall we? Let's put some context into of those stats of yours.

JKO scored more than caufield while playing with Byron & Anderson...

"JKO" had 5 goals on 28 shots taken. Which is good for a 17.9% shooting percentage. It's an unsustainable rate by any means, when you consider that he shot for 5.8% during regular season. This is an abnormal stretch, nothing more, nothing less. Just like his 40% SH% was an abnormal stretch in the bubble in 2020. Naturally, we saw his stats reverting back to normal last season, where he scored 5 goals in 56 games. Who would have guessed.
Cole Caufield had 4 goals in 48 shots taken. Good for 8.3%. It's actually under what you expect from an elite shooter.
As for "scored more than Caufield"... He had ONE. More. Goal.

Also funny that you say that playing with Josh Anderson is some kind of an handicap when the guy actually scored as many goals as Kotkaniemi. All of that while actually shooting 50 times on net. Good for 3rd among all of the Montreal Canadiens skaters. Also funny that you ignore the fact that Ducharme was trying to match Danault against the best lines of the opponent, while the opponents tried to match their best defensive line/their top line against Suzuki, depending of the strategy used. But hey. Let's ignore that for "context"'s sake, I guess? Because obviously, quality of competition doesn't matter.

Suzuki's ppg was flat, JKOs increased in the playoffs...

Now, this is clever.
Suzuki, in 2020, had 0.70 points per game played. In 2021, he had 0.73 points per game played. An improvement of 0.03 PPG.
"JKO", in 2020, had 0.40 points per game played. In 2021, he had 0.42 points per game played. An improvement of 0.02 PPG.

If you meant regular season vs playoffs, Suzuki stayed at 0.73 points per game in both cases. "JKO" went from... 0.36 PPG to 0.42 PPG. Wow! A 6% improvement shooting at more than 3 times his regular season efficacy! Now that's a drastic improvement! /s

JKO was 2nd on the team in P/60, behind CC & comfortably ahead of Suzuki.

Wow, now that's one hell of a statistic. Let's dig into the value of those numbers, shall we?
This regular season, Paul Byron had more points per 60 minutes than Kotkaniemi. In the bubble last season, Paul Byron was 2nd in terms of points per 60 minutes.
Man. I guess that using this narrative, Paul Byron is a better offensive player than Kotkaniemi. Man. Put that guy on the 1st line. Why can't the coaches understand that we're depriving ourselves from a superstar in the making?! Because clearly. CONTEXT. MATTERS.

Context.
Matters.

What you did has nothing to do with context. You just brought together a bunch numbers that fit your agenda to build a strawman on how there's nothing wrong with Kotkaniemi's game. Newsflash; There is. Coaches are not ALL stupid. He was scratched in the last 2 games of the Finals. Because A) He was not getting shit done. And B) I don't think him goofing around in practice after the ass-kicking in game 1, piling pucks on his head and whatnot, sat pretty well with the veterans core and with the coaching staff. It's the f***ing Stanley Cup Final. It's war out there. There's no place for children.

But absolutely. He's still young. Let's repeat that to ourselves year in and year out. Like we did like Galchenyuk. Like we did with the Kostitsyns. And then when he gets traded for a 2nd round pick or another similar prospect, we can remind ourselves how we're doomed because the coaching staff and management "ruins" every single one of our prospects.

I challenge anyone here to come up with 3 videos where the guy fed a teammate with an obvious scoring chance by passing the puck on his tape. I swear. 95% of the time it's the same damn story. Guy gets into the zone with tunnel vision. His speed doesn't allow him to gain time and space against NHL Ds. He corners himself into having to make a quick decision and he shoots on the pads of the opposing D. Every. Single. Time. Again and again and again.

But yeah. He improved his balance. He falls 60% of the time on board battles instead of 80%.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Habs want him to be better in his own zone and the areas that don't show up on the score sheet. Basically, they want him to listen to instructions like Suzuki has. Once he figures that part out (consistency), Ducharme will trust him more. It's basically the same development approach Tampa had with Drouin. Offensive skills are nice but get it through your thick skull that you need to be aware and focus on the 200' game. This is the NHL, not a junior league

This is not a 100% rebuilding team where we just placed them and let them play. Kotkaniemi has work to do to earn trust. It's much deeper than his offensive potential

He is not as bad in his own zone as you are claiming. Of course, when he plays with Anderson and Byron, who are not good at getting the puck, out of their zone, it will show up in results for the line. But actually he has been listening a lot just like Suzuki.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He is not as bad in his own zone as you are claiming. Of course, when he plays with Anderson and Byron, who are not good at getting the puck, out of their zone, it will show up in results for the line. But actually he has been listening a lot just like Suzuki.

He misses assignments and this is the number 1 reason why Ducharme is being hard on him. You can look at what you value but I'm looking at what Ducharme has as a strategy. I support what he is doing and he's sending a message that you need to play a strong 200' game and play within the structure. If you can do that, you will get ice time and opportunities and what you do with the opportunities after your assignments is up to you.

It's like your parents telling you that you can can anything you want after your homework is done

 

[Kents polished head]

He is not as bad in his own zone as you are claiming. Of course, when he plays with Anderson and Byron, who are not good at getting the puck, out of their zone, it will show up in results for the line. But actually he has been listening a lot just like Suzuki.

I mean... who would we want him to be playing with? He played with Toffoli and Armia for a healthy portion of the season. Both are pretty solid defensively and it didn't prevent him from having a pretty ordinary season. Anderson is the 2nd best goal scorer on this team. He slowed down drastically after being put with Kotkaniemi, this season.

At some point, guys like Hoffman and Drouin are not exactly experts in their own end neither. When Suzuki was paired with Anderson and Drouin, who by all means are not defensive wizards neither, he didn't seem to have any trouble getting the puck out of his zone. They were our most consistent line at the start of the season last year.

At some point, the guy will have to be a positive factor by himself, and not count on others to get the puck out of the zone for him and whatnot.

 

[BaseballCoach]

He misses assignments and this is the number 1 reason why Ducharme is being hard on him.

If his assignment is to cover for missed assignments on both wings simultaneously, he will miss some for sure.

Joking aside, he does miss some assignments, but so did Evans (four years older) and Staal, the latter a lot!

By all means work with him. But benching him when he had 5 playoff goals, all important ones, was a head scratcher. Bad omen.

 

[TopTenPlayz]

If he's a 2nd center you hope for more but if he's only a 3rd that's not bad.

P.S. It's a couple of years I've been saying KK is a 3rd center in the making so I'm not upset with his progress. I'm simply upset with TT for the usual first-round screw-up.

Can't believe how many flops Timmins drafted especially in the first round and yet still hasn't been fired and so many ppl defending him. The guy has more lives than a cat and I'm positive he can survive a nuclear bomb.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If his assignment is to cover for missed assignments on both wings simultaneously, he will miss some for sure.

Joking aside, he does miss some assignments, but so did Evans (four years older) and Staal, the latter a lot!

By all means work with him. But benching him when he had 5 playoff goals, all important ones, was a head scratcher. Bad omen.

The clear strategy was big boys that force things to the outside. They valued Staal cause he listened to instructions (like it or not). I felt like we should have given KK more of a shot as well but I always try to figure out what the coaches are dealing with behind the scenes. Ducharme is not an idiot so there are reasons

Consistency and more of a power game is what KK needs to focus on. His offensive skills are there.

 

[DAChampion]

BREAKING NEWS
Here is a live feed of KK's development curve so far:

_________________________
2018 2019 2020 2021

He's actually gotten worse. Like a lot of Habs' forwards, his offensive effectiveness peaked in his rookie season.

 

[1909]

It really is when you think about it.

Both players drafted 3rd overall

Both players rushed to the NHL.

Both players started on the 3rd line

Both players pushed aside for local players with lesser talent.

You'd think they would learn from their mistakes...

Only in your biased view.

 

[Kents polished head]

He's actually gotten worse. Like a lot of Habs' forwards, his offensive effectiveness peaked in his rookie season.

I just don't understand what games people who say he's showing signs of improvement/becoming a very good player are watching. His decision-making has shown no sign of improvement over his first 3 years. None.

I don't know if he got worse. I don't think he significantly regressed. But he sure as hell doesn't show a whole lot of things that indicate he has "it".

 

[Skip Bayless]

He's actually gotten worse. Like a lot of Habs' forwards, his offensive effectiveness peaked in his rookie season.

I think in terms of confidence he's regressed. It's a shame because that's a product of getting rushed.

I just don't think he had much to work with outside his shot power and good vision in certain situations.

I hope he can get it together, I wouldn't be mad at a big, strong, powerful 3rd line C.