Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Chainshot]

Important distinction that's usually ignored.

Overall, I don't believe the impact of the 'cut too deep' was as impactful as it's made out to be... I don't think flushing two 2nds and McNabb down the toilet is any different than Botts flushing 3rd, Fedun, Beaulieu down the toilet. Adding in an extra asset on the WPG trade is completely meaningless in the long run.

It's the difference in how the Rangers have Kreider and Zib and Skjei coming out of their retool. Murray went deeper than the Rangers to make sure he came out with McDavid or the consolation prize in Eichel.

The correct criticisms of Murray lie in his failure in all areas of communication (coach to gm, gm to team, player to gm, gm to owner, etc).

Him defending Bylsma to end that season is also something that one could look at. He was going to force control, yet it was clear the team had quit on Dan.

You had a great saying regarding the hiring of housley, the impact on ROR, and then Botts blaming ROR for Housley's outcome... wish i bookmarked that.

I still feel the way all of the stuff from last season worked out had roots in the hiring of an incompetent coach. I went through to find my earliest comments on Housley being in over his head and it was the end of his first October behind the bench. Much like the on-ice talent, what was it that Phil did/said that made Jason think he was going to be a good choice? Evaluation questions remain.

Sure, there is plenty to hate about all 3.... but nothing... absolutely nothing compares to the Housley hiring and ROR trade in terms of long term damage. The hypothetical comparable would be if when Briere/Drury walked, we hired Rolston.

The Housley hiring is the catalyst of the unraveling that leaves us where we are today. I agree that it is the most damaging of the moves any of the last three GM's have made.

(And as an aside, I think it would be they hire Rolston and then Briere/Drury leave at the first possible opportunity because of him.)

 

[OkimLom]

Pretty sure 95 percent of the fanbase wanted Housley.. didn’t work out, and Botts made the right move and fired him. Move on.

and most of that crowd wanted him purely because of this idea he was some sort of "defenseman whisperer" because he was the assistant coach in Nashville, a team that consistently had a good to great D-Corp before he got there and after he left.

When you look at the rest of his resume, he shouldn't have been an option in the first place. Everything about Housley, and everything that was wrong with the team, screamed that Housley + Buffalo Sabres to be a terrible fit. Botts shouldn't be forgiven for this poor hire because he fired him at some point.

 

[Chainshot]

Jame your response a few pages ago plainly illustrates you can't be rational when discussing Botterill. You're a great part of this community but for whatever reason it seems you can't think or act with reason all things Botterill.

Murray made far more bad moves than Botterill. You keep regurgitating the one bad move he did make... And as pointed out elsewhere there were circumstances which made the outcome of that trade absolutely as bad as possible. Circumstances outside Botterill's control... Hell I don't even trust that it was all on Botterill making the move to begin with....

You need to give him time. If he bungles a potential Risto trade, messes up the 7ov selection & it turns out his boy Krueger is a total failure - then we can sit here next summer & all be closer to agreement.

You give a GM a job even if he is terrible the least you owe that guy as an owner is time. But there has been enough good stuff to suggest that Botterill might not be terrible.

I have yet to see good stuff from Botterill that one could not point at as being baseline acceptable.

 

[Montag DP]

I still feel the way all of the stuff from last season worked out had roots in the hiring of an incompetent coach. I went through to find my earliest comments on Housley being in over his head and it was the end of his first October behind the bench.

I remember being worried when they went 0-4 or whatever in the preseason that year, trying to reassure myself that the preseason doesn't matter, and then coming to grips with the reality that Housley was completely in over his head after they looked no better in the first few games. That was such a disappointment after all the hype surrounding Housley during the offseason. I hope Botterill has learned from his mistakes and that Krueger will be as advertised.

 

[Chainshot]

I remember being worried when they went 0-4 or whatever in the preseason that year, trying to reassure myself that the preseason doesn't matter, and then coming to grips with the reality that Housley was completely in over his head after they looked no better in the first few games. That was such a disappointment after all the hype surrounding Housley during the offseason. I hope Botterill has learned from his mistakes and that Krueger will be as advertised.

Me too. I hope he's learned from his mistakes and that the Krueger moves bears fruit quickly. I hope the talk from so many in the hockey world about his ability to engage with his players brings out results quickly.

Phil talking about Tennyson being their go-to early in that first season because "he does what we want in practice" was alarming. Like, great, he prepares and does the things you want in practice but he's a crater on the ice Phil. If you want the team to win, you can't reward a guy with that level of impact on the game because of how he prepares if he is unable to do the job.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

I don’t need a refresher on any number period. All I know it’s the same Blues team that was dead last with Jake Allen. ROR isn’t the reason the Blues are so amazing, Binnington is period and the way he saved their asses proves it. But of course your not a goalie guy, you can win with anyone in your mind.

The Blues were a already good team with a sub replacement level goalie and coach, before Binnington and Berube. Theres plenty of numbers to back this up.

You're right, that is all you know. "Team win goalie good". Just bury your head in the sand and ignore information besides wins/losses that is readily available.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

That's a very simplistic viewpoint

You shouldn't be surprised.

Girgensons and Larsson are below nhlers, they create no offence at all.

Don’t come at me with all your useless stats either, just put the damn puck in the net.

 

[OkimLom]

I don’t need a refresher on any number period. All I know it’s the same Blues team that was dead last with Jake Allen. ROR isn’t the reason the Blues are so amazing, Binnington is period and the way he saved their asses proves it. But of course your not a goalie guy, you can win with anyone in your mind.

When they switched their HEAD coach, they were playing as a top 10 team that you could see without looking at the impact of the goaltender. They were playing better structurally. They were allowing fewer shots on net, they were allowing fewer shot ATTEMPTS, they had more shot attempts, and shots on net.

Their overall play improved as a team which led to them turning things around, but make no mistake about it, ROR was just as impactful to them when they righted the ship as he was impactful when they were losing games. Much like his time here, he was far far from the problem with the team, and he was without a doubt one of those players carrying the team when they needed him to.

 

[OkimLom]

I support Botts and if all we get is 90, he should be fired.

Why? That's a lot of progress, and as someone who is VERY critical of him, just having that improvement gives me pause to fire him.

Should I assume anything less than 90, you feel he should be fired as well?

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

Why? That's a lot of progress, and as someone who is VERY critical of him, just having that improvement gives me pause to fire him.

Should I assume anything less than 90, you feel he should be fired as well?

Of course. Progress was what last year should have been. He needs to make the playoffs as the assets he received should be good enough for playoffs.

 

[Jame]

The Housley hiring is the catalyst of the unraveling that leaves us where we are today. I agree that it is the most damaging of the moves any of the last three GM's have made.

(And as an aside, I think it would be they hire Rolston and then Briere/Drury leave at the first possible opportunity because of him.)

yea, that's perfect.

 

[OkimLom]

Of course. Progress was what last year should have been. He needs to make the playoffs as the assets he received should be good enough for playoffs.

Okay, just needed to know where the bar was.

 

[Chainshot]

So what I would like is for him to identify and acquire good players, even with a limited set of resources, that fill potential needs on the team like center, functional RHD, scoring wings, and hey... a good goalie.

I expect to look at any move he makes with a critical eye. I want what he does these next two weeks to work out. I am, like all of you, sick to death of this f***ing team being terrible. Make some improvement. Start something where they begin to crawl out of the bottom of the hole they are in, regardless of his part in making that hole.

 

[Jame]

Jame your response a few pages ago plainly illustrates you can't be rational when discussing Botterill. You're a great part of this community but for whatever reason it seems you can't think or act with reason all things Botterill.

I was right about all things Botterill... some people still have their heads buried in the sand for fear of admitting their error.

Murray made far more bad moves than Botterill. You keep regurgitating the one bad move he did make... And as pointed out elsewhere there were circumstances which made the outcome of that trade absolutely as bad as possible. Circumstances outside Botterill's control... Hell I don't even trust that it was all on Botterill making the move to begin with....

It's not even close. Murray got in some fender benders... Botterill wrecked the car.

You need to give him time. If he bungles a potential Risto trade, messes up the 7ov selection & it turns out his boy Krueger is a total failure - then we can sit here next summer & all be closer to agreement.

f*** that. Murray got two years with Eichel and co. Why are you comfortable waiting for him to f*** up the next move?

You give a GM a job even if he is terrible the least you owe that guy as an owner is time. But there has been enough good stuff to suggest that Botterill might not be terrible.

You think it's rational to give morons more time?

 

[Jame]

So what I would like is for him to identify and acquire good players, even with a limited set of resources, that fill potential needs on the team like center, functional RHD, scoring wings, and hey... a good goalie.

I expect to look at any move he makes with a critical eye. I want what he does these next two weeks to work out. I am, like all of you, sick to death of this ****ing team being terrible. Make some improvement. Start something where they begin to crawl out of the bottom of the hole they are in, regardless of his part in making that hole.

And I don't want to hear excuses (again) that it was too much to ask him to make X # of roster changes in one offseason.... he's had 3 offseasons.

 

[Chainshot]

And I don't want to hear excuses (again) that it was too much to ask him to make X # of roster changes in one offseason.... he's had 3 offseasons.

Yeah, he has to start adding players, not just shuffling the total number of good NHLers around. That was part of my point about his wasting his first summer -- you don't need to be a super genius to watch condensed tape of what the team has and see what it needs. You don't need to sit in the press box watching people do the same things they did the year prior, and the year before that, and the year before that, etc.... to know what is needed.

No excuses. Start finding contributors. A single fix is not possible, two years have been wasted spinning tires rather than taking even small steps to improve.

 

[Jame]

Yeah, he has to start adding players, not just shuffling the total number of good NHLers around. That was part of my point about his wasting his first summer -- you don't need to be a super genius to watch condensed tape of what the team has and see what it needs. You don't need to sit in the press box watching people do the same things they did the year prior, and the year before that, and the year before that, etc.... to know what is needed.

No excuses. Start finding contributors. A single fix is not possible, two years have been wasted spinning tires rather than taking even small steps to improve.

The reference to the Sheary/Hunwick trade when he was asked how he intends to add to the roster is just terrifying.

 

[Chainshot]

The reference to the Sheary/Hunwick trade when he was asked how he intends to add to the roster is just terrifying.

I'd like him and the team to move on from the slavering Penguin fandom. Pittsburgh doesn't need a fluffer, they are not infallible. And stop helping them.

And I am deleting my paragraph tirade on his wishy-washy language. That's just my morning coffee wearing off and not liking him.

 

[Chainshot]

Is it paranoid to worry that the other NHL GM trained at Shero's hand who is making dubious moves is cause for concern with his other GM protege?

 

[Jame]

Is it paranoid to worry that the other NHL GM trained at Shero's hand who is making dubious moves is cause for concern with his other GM protege?

Wracking my brain... is that a Chuck Fletcher reference?

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

And I don't want to hear excuses (again) that it was too much to ask him to make X # of roster changes in one offseason.... he's had 3 offseasons.

Same with him "inheriting a bad roster" which someone just dropped yesterday. The excuses have officially run dry.

 

[Chainshot]

Wracking my brain... is that a Chuck Fletcher reference?

It is.

 

[Jame]

Same with him "inheriting a bad roster" which someone just dropped yesterday. The excuses have officially run dry.

lol... inheriting a bad roster is hilarious...

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Important distinction that's usually ignored.

Overall, I don't believe the impact of the 'cut too deep' was as impactful as it's made out to be... I don't think flushing two 2nds and McNabb down the toilet is any different than Botts flushing 3rd, Fedun, Beaulieu down the toilet. Adding in an extra asset on the WPG trade is completely meaningless in the long run.

The correct criticisms of Murray lie in his failure in all areas of communication (coach to gm, gm to team, player to gm, gm to owner, etc).




agreed



You had a great saying regarding the hiring of housley, the impact on ROR, and then Botts blaming ROR for Housley's outcome... wish i bookmarked that.



Sure, there is plenty to hate about all 3.... but nothing... absolutely nothing compares to the Housley hiring and ROR trade in terms of long term damage. The hypothetical comparable would be if when Briere/Drury walked, we hired Rolston.

This is nuts. If Botts traded 2 2nds and McNabb for Fedun, Beaulieu and a 3rd you'd be repeating it every other post as a reason to fire him.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I have yet to see good stuff from Botterill that one could not point at as being baseline acceptable.

I know you like to down play it for.. reasons which are surely not biased, but the Skinner trade was good.

And the Montour trade looks good. He's a really steady 24 year old RHD. It goes to show how much of a tire fire everything is that he's not talked about more. I think he's a bright spot for Buffalo moving forward.