Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[BananaSquad]

He missed the playoffs in 5 of 8 years and got past the first round once... after all his patience, the cap caught up with him and now he’s got to give away talent...

Everytime someone points to Winnipeg as a positive model my eyes roll out the back of my head.

I’ll take the playoffs over what we are doing right now boss. Blues went from last seed in the playoffs to Cup champs.

 

[Jame]

What good coach did Murray ever hire? Botterill has the edge over him in coaching, because he at least fired the terrible coach he hired after two years.

Murray hired a bad NHL coach
Botts hired an unqualified coach

It's not even close. Murray had a coach who was able to implement an NHL system to grind out 80 points. Botts hired a coach who brought a defensive system from a high school team.

 

[BananaSquad]

Look at him still being bad!

You thinking Reinhart is better than Marner is bad.

 

[Chainshot]

You think Murray made more bad moves than Botts? That’s crazy... You must think depth and draft picks are more important than star players and coaches...

They both have made bad moves, as we've been over.

What remains is the ownership potentially meddling with under-qualified GM hires.


I'd like to see him surprise me today. I expect to be disappointed.

 

[Montag DP]

Murray hired a bad NHL coach
Botts hired an unqualified coach

It's not even close. Murray had a coach who was able to implement an NHL system to grind out 80 points. Botts hired a coach who brought a defensive system from a high school team.

Bylsma was a horrible coach. The team couldn't complete a pass from 5 feet away with him, and the locker room was a disaster, regardless of whether they managed to get a few more points than Housley's teams one year. The fact that you would mention coaching as one of the things Murray did right just shows your bias.

 

[BananaSquad]

Murray hired a bad NHL coach
Botts hired an unqualified coach

It's not even close. Murray had a coach who was able to implement an NHL system to grind out 80 points. Botts hired a coach who brought a defensive system from a high school team.

Pretty sure 95 percent of the fanbase wanted Housley.. didn’t work out, and Botts made the right move and fired him. Move on.

 

[Jame]

They both have made bad moves, as we've been over.

What remains is the ownership. I'd like to see him surprise me today. I expect to be disappointed.

Murray's bad moves pale in comparison to Botts.

They're not even in the same ballpark.

 

[Jame]

Pretty sure 95 percent of the fanbase wanted Housley.. didn’t work out, and Botts made the right move and fired him. Move on.

Yea, and that one stupid move cost us 2 years and ROR... that's totally on the same planet as trading away draft picks/prospects....

 

[Jame]

Bylsma was a horrible coach. The team couldn't complete a pass from 5 feet away with him, and the locker room was a disaster, regardless of whether they managed to get a few more points than Housley's teams one year. The fact that you would mention coaching as one of the things Murray did right just shows your bias.

Nobody hated Bylsma more than I. My statement during that hiring cycle was "please, anyone but Bylsma".

But I know the difference between having bad systems/structure and being unqualified for a job, and the impact that difference has.

 

[BananaSquad]

Yea, and that one stupid move cost us 2 years and ROR... that's totally on the same planet as trading away draft picks/prospects....

Who cares about ROR!?! Holy shit man. If Binnington doesn’t show up we are talking about the Blues 2020 first rounder right now.

 

[Jame]

Who cares about ROR!?! Holy **** man. If Binnington doesn’t show up we are talking about the Blues 2020 first rounder right now.

All the underlying metrics showed that ST louis was a very good team being dragged down by historically terrible goaltending... they were basically elite defensively.... it wasn't about Binnington as much as it was about any competent goaltender showing up.

Do you need a refresher on Carter Hutton's numbers in St Louis?

 

[Montag DP]

Nobody hated Bylsma more than I. My statement during that hiring cycle was "please, anyone but Bylsma".

But I know the difference between having bad systems/structure and being unqualified for a job, and the impact that difference has.

You literally listed "coaches" as one of the things Botterill allegedly doesn't care about but Murray did. If you hated Bylsma so much (and I'm aware you did, I remember that you complaining about him from day 1), why would you list coaching as something Murray cared about? Again, Botterill at least fired Housley, which is more than can be said about Murray with Bylsma.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Murray's bad moves pale in comparison to Botts.

They're not even in the same ballpark.

I'm taking Botts over GMTM all day every day

 

[BananaSquad]

All the underlying metrics showed that ST louis was a very good team being dragged down by historically terrible goaltending... they were basically elite defensively.... it wasn't about Binnington as much as it was about any competent goaltender showing up.

Do you need a refresher on Carter Hutton's numbers in St Louis?

I don’t need a refresher on any number period. All I know it’s the same Blues team that was dead last with Jake Allen. ROR isn’t the reason the Blues are so amazing, Binnington is period and the way he saved their asses proves it. But of course your not a goalie guy, you can win with anyone in your mind.

 

[Jame]

I don’t need a refresher on any number period. All I know it’s the same Blues team that was dead last with Jake Allen. ROR isn’t the reason the Blues are so amazing, Binnington is period and the way he saved their asses proves it. But of course your not a goalie guy, you can win with anyone in your mind.

That's a very simplistic viewpoint

 

[Jame]

You literally listed "coaches" as one of the things Botterill allegedly doesn't care about but Murray did. If you hated Bylsma so much (and I'm aware you did, I remember that you complaining about him from day 1), why would you list coaching as something Murray cared about? Again, Botterill at least fired Housley, which is more than can be said about Murray with Bylsma.

I think hiring a guy who won a Stanley Cup shows a bit more care than hiring a guy whose head coaching experience was a high school team and a world junior team.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

I concur, but I think Botts could sell 85-90 pts. as enough progress to convince the Pegulas that he should keep his job.

I support Botts and if all we get is 90, he should be fired.

 

[BananaSquad]

That's a very simplistic viewpoint

No it’s a realistic viewpoint. How about you get your face out of your papers full of numbers that back up everything you say, and just watch the actual games. The timely saves goalies make are the difference between winning or losing. You wanna bring up Hutton, damn the timely saves he was making were crucial, and then they all went away (and Ullmark) and all of sudden the Sabres couldn’t win a damn game.

 

[Jame]

No it’s a realistic viewpoint. How about you get your face out of your papers full of numbers that back up everything you say, and just watch the actual games. The timely saves goalies make are the difference between winning or losing. You wanna bring up Hutton, damn the timely saves he was making were crucial, and then they all went away (and Ullmark) and all of sudden the Sabres couldn’t win a damn game.

You watch the games?

 

[Steddy33]

I don’t need a refresher on any number period. All I know it’s the same Blues team that was dead last with Jake Allen. ROR isn’t the reason the Blues are so amazing, Binnington is period and the way he saved their asses proves it. But of course your not a goalie guy, you can win with anyone in your mind.

You obviously have no interest in the truth as far as the Blues go. Jake Allen was awful. Horrible. Easily the worst starting goalie in the league the first 3 months of last season. I know this from watching Blues games in the first half of the season, not from numbers. So yeah average NHL goaltending and the Blues are never in last place to begin with. They were never as bad their record. Sure, Binnington was good, better than average. But Binnington isn't the only reason the Blues were good. Not even close.

 

[Montag DP]

I think hiring a guy who won a Stanley Cup shows a bit more care than hiring a guy whose head coaching experience was a high school team and a world junior team.

That's a very simplistic viewpoint.

 

[Chainshot]

Murray's bad moves pale in comparison to Botts.

They're not even in the same ballpark.

Eh, it's a continuum of similar folly.

Murray cut too deep with the tank teams while continuing Regier's method of virtually ignoring the farm club. Making sure they had that going would provide ready-talent to inject into the lineup on the other side. His addition of an extra piece into multiple trades whittled away at potential depth. The trade with the Jets was perfect for damning the team yet injected one unreliable player and another with dubious preparation habits into an impressionable locker room. The comments from departures like Lehner and Kulikov doesn't point to the front office having a concern for the mental health of their on-ice talent that has persisted from Regier through to Botterill. His scouting, supposedly an individual strength of his, hasn't turned out much although some of the love for 2017 can be attributed to his staff book (in much the way 2014 good and bad can be shared with Regier). He operated on his "pee pee slapping" when it came to bad behavior that may work on a veteran team but was bad leadership and put poor off-ice influences in close proximity to impressionable youth who then also ignored the few vets he'd brought in to be traditional leader types.

The Murray hire of Bylsma seemed like the continuation of the mandate from above (similar to the Leino signing, Ehrhoff acquisition, scouting dept. expansion, etc... under Regier) to get the shiniest coach they could. Why he stuck with him and fell on the sword is interesting to speculate but Bylsma was not a good coach without the 1-2 tandem of Crosby-Malkin (which you were astute in pointing out at the time of the hire).

Botterill hiring a garbage HC is his biggest failing. Crushing players due to use and not maximizing any matchup had to be grating on the team which we then saw the further erosion of talent by the end of season one. I do not agree with how he went about roster construction or the narrative of the "evaluation" phase where no impactful or even marginal improvements were made. His scouting group leaves me wondering at what they are looking at for pro players and amateurs as well. The "build for the future" narrative falls under scrutiny of his draft pick for player moves and while his conditions on almost every trade are wearisome, it's a continuation from Murray (the Miller trade comes to mind) but has gotten to be the norm rather than an exception. He's been inconsistent in his words about development and earning ice time and the reality of who has been on his team. I seriously question his ability to access NHL players right now.

There is a trend in some of the errors by both: they were inexperienced and had no reliable hockey mind to operate as consigliere, errr President of Hockey Ops. The infatuation with the Penguins has been apparent from the top down since the installation of former Pen advisors at the initial purchase of the team. The influence on having to bid on UFA's at the start, the opening of the checkbook for the amenities, the expansion of the scouting staff all flopped under Regier who had no experience with operating on that budget. They should have been leveraging that off-ice advantage for 8 years now and they haven't. Training and performance staff? Let's lead the league in man-games lost to injury again and again, stripping out what little NHL talent they have. Again, no improvement and that's three regimes under this owner. Pro scouting has been ass for what... 20 years?... and amazingly there are people on that staff (of whom there are only 5 remaining from the Murray final group) who have transcended that and yet remain employed.

Then there is the Babcock and Bylsma thing. That's the Leino scenario played out as coaching. Then the O'Reilly thing, where a noob who can't fix issues capitulates to move a valuable piece for what conventional minds all approved of due to finances.

I have come to hate both of the last THREE GM's for different reasons. The only unifying thing is that the ownership has been fine with this crap. And that every time they seem to interfere, it blows up in their face.

 

[Chainshot]

Who cares about ROR!?! Holy **** man. If Binnington doesn’t show up we are talking about the Blues 2020 first rounder right now.

Nah, we're still talking about how they don't have a #2 center and how the GM thought Mittelstadt was ready. Or that Sobotka and Berglund where anything but crap dumps. And that today they still need to fill that hole after getting crushed in trade value.

 

[Jame]

Eh, it's a continuum of similar folly.

Murray cut too deep with the tank teams while continuing Regier's method of virtually ignoring the farm club. Making sure they had that going would provide ready-talent to inject into the lineup on the other side. His addition of an extra piece into multiple trades whittled away at potential depth. The trade with the Jets was perfect for damning the team yet injected one unreliable player and another with dubious preparation habits into an impressionable locker room. The comments from departures like Lehner and Kulikov doesn't point to the front office having a concern for the mental health of their on-ice talent that has persisted from Regier through to Botterill. His scouting, supposedly an individual strength of his, hasn't turned out much although some of the love for 2017 can be attributed to his staff book (in much the way 2014 good and bad can be shared with Regier). He operated on his "pee pee slapping" when it came to bad behavior that may work on a veteran team but was bad leadership and put poor off-ice influences in close proximity to impressionable youth who then also ignored the few vets he'd brought in to be traditional leader types.

Important distinction that's usually ignored.

Overall, I don't believe the impact of the 'cut too deep' was as impactful as it's made out to be... I don't think flushing two 2nds and McNabb down the toilet is any different than Botts flushing 3rd, Fedun, Beaulieu down the toilet. Adding in an extra asset on the WPG trade is completely meaningless in the long run.

The correct criticisms of Murray lie in his failure in all areas of communication (coach to gm, gm to team, player to gm, gm to owner, etc).

The Murray hire of Bylsma seemed like the continuation of the mandate from above (similar to the Leino signing, Ehrhoff acquisition, scouting dept. expansion, etc... under Regier) to get the shiniest coach they could. Why he stuck with him and fell on the sword is interesting to speculate but Bylsma was not a good coach without the 1-2 tandem of Crosby-Malkin (which you were astute in pointing out at the time of the hire).

agreed

Botterill hiring a garbage HC is his biggest failing. Crushing players due to use and not maximizing any matchup had to be grating on the team which we then saw the further erosion of talent by the end of season one. I do not agree with how he went about roster construction or the narrative of the "evaluation" phase where no impactful or even marginal improvements were made. His scouting group leaves me wondering at what they are looking at for pro players and amateurs as well. The "build for the future" narrative falls under scrutiny of his draft pick for player moves and while his conditions on almost every trade are wearisome, it's a continuation from Murray (the Miller trade comes to mind) but has gotten to be the norm rather than an exception. He's been inconsistent in his words about development and earning ice time and the reality of who has been on his team. I seriously question his ability to access NHL players right now.

You had a great saying regarding the hiring of housley, the impact on ROR, and then Botts blaming ROR for Housley's outcome... wish i bookmarked that.

There is a trend in some of the errors by both: they were inexperienced and had no reliable hockey mind to operate as consigliere, errr President of Hockey Ops. The infatuation with the Penguins has been apparent from the top down since the installation of former Pen advisors at the initial purchase of the team. The influence on having to bid on UFA's at the start, the opening of the checkbook for the amenities, the expansion of the scouting staff all flopped under Regier who had no experience with operating on that budget. They should have been leveraging that off-ice advantage for 8 years now and they haven't. Training and performance staff? Let's lead the league in man-games lost to injury again and again, stripping out what little NHL talent they have. Again, no improvement and that's three regimes under this owner. Pro scouting has been ass for what... 20 years?... and amazingly there are people on that staff (of whom there are only 5 remaining from the Murray final group) who have transcended that and yet remain employed.

Then there is the Babcock and Bylsma thing. That's the Leino scenario played out as coaching. Then the O'Reilly thing, where a noob who can't fix issues capitulates to move a valuable piece for what conventional minds all approved of due to finances.

I have come to hate both of the last THREE GM's for different reasons. The only unifying thing is that the ownership has been fine with this crap. And that every time they seem to interfere, it blows up in their face.

Sure, there is plenty to hate about all 3.... but nothing... absolutely nothing compares to the Housley hiring and ROR trade in terms of long term damage. The hypothetical comparable would be if when Briere/Drury walked, we hired Rolston.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

You think Murray made more bad moves than Botts? That’s crazy... You must think depth and draft picks are more important than star players and coaches...

Jame your response a few pages ago plainly illustrates you can't be rational when discussing Botterill. You're a great part of this community but for whatever reason it seems you can't think or act with reason all things Botterill.

Murray made far more bad moves than Botterill. You keep regurgitating the one bad move he did make... And as pointed out elsewhere there were circumstances which made the outcome of that trade absolutely as bad as possible. Circumstances outside Botterill's control... Hell I don't even trust that it was all on Botterill making the move to begin with....

You need to give him time. If he bungles a potential Risto trade, messes up the 7ov selection & it turns out his boy Krueger is a total failure - then we can sit here next summer & all be closer to agreement.

You give a GM a job even if he is terrible the least you owe that guy as an owner is time. But there has been enough good stuff to suggest that Botterill might not be terrible.