Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[slip]

I'm hoping he starts backing up his pre-hiring hype any minute now.

Here's the thing about geniuses: most don't ever amount to jack shit. They just lounge around the park, playing speed chess, and spend all night wondering why the "idiots" around them are so much richer and successful than they are.

 

[zenthusiast]

I'm hoping he starts backing up his pre-hiring hype any minute now.

I don't dislike him, but I do dislike much his entire body of work. I'd like for him to start changing that, to start liking what he's doing. Ultimately, it's over 2 years of wondering if he can identify who his good players are and if he can identify good players from other teams. It would be refreshing if that wasn't in question so wholeheartedly.

Skinner is a feather in his cap. Not to the inverse of ROR, surely, but viewed as a standalone move it's a coup.

 

[Tatanka]

I'm not a fan of Botterills body of work by any means, but Cal Peterson chose not to sign. We can't force him too. Lehner by all reports was a head-case that we would have had to commit 4 million towards... I'm glad he turned it around, but thats not an unrealistic decision for Botterill to make. It's easy for us to sit here and make decisions on whether or not we should sign player A or trade for player B, but the reality is we aren't accountable for it. Just my two cents.



I liked Murray's interviews and his willingness to take chances, I didn't like his habit of selling everything to get what he wanted.

Bobblehead sells everything and doesn’t get what he wants. Sheary but you have to take Hunwick and you can’t trade Hunwick and Sheary can’t score 20. ROR: no top prospect (spare me on TT he is a journeyman one trick pony) and we have to take back cap and give away a second and no conditions in our favor like if he wins the selke or conn smythe we get the 2020 first. Bobblehead not only can’t evaluate talent he is woeful at negotiation. the Murray overspending myth is just that if you conclude that he bought exactly what he wanted: A selke caliber center, a vezina caliber goalie and in the case of Kane a top 6 winger. Bobblehead overspends for shyte.

 

[Hasek]

Seriously. There has to be someone else here that thinks Botts has done a great job so far?

 

[Chainshot]

Skinner is a feather in his cap. Not to the inverse of ROR, surely, but viewed as a standalone move it's a coup.

Skinner with only 2 teams to go to should have been as easy as it was. Trading for a guy who will only go to your team seems like basic competency, much like icing a competitive AHL team. I like that he managed to complete the Skinner deal, even if I'm not sure I like the length and term on the UFA deal.

 

[Chainshot]

Seriously. There has to be someone else here that thinks Botts has done a great job so far?

Probably two: He and his wife live in Florida.

 

[zenthusiast]

Skinner with only 2 teams to go to should have been as easy as it was. Trading for a guy who will only go to your team seems like basic competency, much like icing a competitive AHL team. I like that he managed to complete the Skinner deal, even if I'm not sure I like the length and term on the UFA deal.

If that's an accurate accounting of the situation, sure. Still, based on what's confirmable, he picked up a genuine first liner and top-tier goal scorer for a song. We've posted elsewhere about the importance of pro scouting, and while Skinner's not a deep cut by any means choosing correctly to take the plunge on a guy with question marks is enough for me to say it's a good move. What I expect we agree will make or break their pro scouting is finding the right complementary players at the right prices.

 

[TheStorm]

Seriously. There has to be someone else here that thinks Botts has done a great job so far?

The Ryan o'Reilly trade was so bad there's no way I could view his tenure so far as great, but I will say I don't think he's done a terrible job either(because of things like the Skinner trade). If Risto gets traded then the return will go a long way in solidifying how I feel about him.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Seriously. There has to be someone else here that thinks Botts has done a great job so far?

Can't say "great". I would say he's doing an unpopular but necessary task that won't pay off for the big club for another 1-3 seasons. He's got to be above average in drafting and some of these guys have to pan out as surprisingly effective NHLers, while his lesser picks still fill out Rochester and maintain a competitive level there. Bryson, Laaksonen, and UPL look like they could be those surprises. Davidsson, Pekar, and Samuelsson might be that good also. Mittelstadt has to turn a corner, while Dahlin was a can't miss no-brainer.

His really meh signings and trades were mostly to acquire character guys that could be good for the younger players (some were cap dumps), while the organizational depth catches up during seasons Botterill knew they couldn't be a quality playoff team. I don't blame him at all for not paying more futures for more, quality players. Skinner and Montour were exceptions that were worth it (Skinner being a slight gamble).

To move forward with more aggressive moves, Botterill has to believe the organizational depth is up to a level that makes more draft picks expendable. If his previous picks keep developing, and he hits another 2-3 NHL worthy prospects this draft, the organization will be much better off and the time for bigger moves will be here, while the time for taking cap dumps will be gone.

 

[sabremike]

The Botts hate isn't warranted. It's from a bunch of people with limited knowledge sitting behind a keyboard. I wouldn't say he has done a great job just because we haven't won anything yet but I do think he is on the right path, not everyone is patient though. He inherited an awful situation and it takes time to unscrew up some of the big problems here. We're almost out of cap issues, we have a good young guys again, and this summer is huge for really putting his stamp on the team now that he has some leverage/cap room.

This summer will be very telling.

Awful situation he inherited:

2 Seasons of Tim/Abysmal:68W, 73L, 23OTL.

Last two seasons:
58W, 84L,22 OTL (roughly a .340 win percentage)

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Awful situation he inherited:

2 Seasons of Tim/Abysmal:68W, 73L, 23OTL.

Last two seasons:
58W, 84L,22 OTL (roughly a .340 win percentage)

And during that same time their depth remained terrible, Rochester remained terrible, their D-corps remained terrible, and GMs stopped returning TM's phone calls. The bigger picture was in fact awful, and two slightly less terrible seasons under TM and Dufus didn't change that fact one little tiny bit.

And to be fair, this bigger, awful picture started before TM and Dufus...but they didn't help even though they were in the best position to do so (post tear down with extra picks).

 

[sabremike]

And during that same time their depth remained terrible, Rochester remained terrible, their D-corps remained terrible, and GMs stopped returning TM's phone calls. The bigger picture was in fact awful, and two slightly less terrible seasons under TM and Dufus didn't change that fact one little tiny bit.

And to be fair, this bigger, awful picture started before TM and Dufus...but they didn't help even though they were in the best position to do so (post tear down with extra picks).

I could swear @Jame once posted a stat that Murray actually made more draft picks than Botts in their 2 years. And as bad as Murray was and for all the mistakes he made (and he made plenty) he didn't make a move so terrible that its almost certainly going to take years to recover from (unless God magically drops an NHL quality #2 center into our lap).

 

[Jame]

Can't say "great". I would say he's doing an unpopular but necessary task that won't pay off for the big club for another 1-3 seasons. He's got to be above average in drafting and some of these guys have to pan out as surprisingly effective NHLers, while his lesser picks still fill out Rochester and maintain a competitive level there. Bryson, Laaksonen, and UPL look like they could be those surprises. Davidsson, Pekar, and Samuelsson might be that good also. Mittelstadt has to turn a corner, while Dahlin was a can't miss no-brainer.

His really meh signings and trades were mostly to acquire character guys that could be good for the younger players (some were cap dumps), while the organizational depth catches up during seasons Botterill knew they couldn't be a quality playoff team. I don't blame him at all for not paying more futures for more, quality players. Skinner and Montour were exceptions that were worth it (Skinner being a slight gamble).

To move forward with more aggressive moves, Botterill has to believe the organizational depth is up to a level that makes more draft picks expendable. If his previous picks keep developing, and he hits another 2-3 NHL worthy prospects this draft, the organization will be much better off and the time for bigger moves will be here, while the time for taking cap dumps will be gone.

Lol organizational depth is up to a level where we can trade picks to accelerate... now that Murray’s picks are arriving (Olofsson, Nylander, Asplund, Borden)

Hilarious

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I could swear @Jame once posted a stat that Murray actually made more draft picks than Botts in their 2 years. And as bad as Murray was and for all the mistakes he made (and he made plenty) he didn't make a move so terrible that its almost certainly going to take years to recover from (unless God magically drops an NHL quality #2 center into our lap).

TM had a few more to play with.

Lol organizational depth is up to a level where we can trade picks to accelerate... now that Murray’s picks are arriving (Olofsson, Nylander, Asplund, Borden)

Hilarious

It's really not. It's too bad that those are the only four non-top picks that you can point to, considering the vast potential of the 2015 draft that went for naught. Don't get caught up again in some TM vs Botts meltdown. This is a pre-TM problem that hasn't been address correctly for over a decade.

Somebody has to start thinking long-term at some point. I don't care if it's Botterill or Daffy Duck...Buffalo is a franchise that has to focus on draft and development. Fumbling through it doesn't mean big trades is right, it means you have to be better within your long-term plan. I not pro-Botterill, I'm pro draft/development until a moment comes when it makes sense to make an over-the-top slash.

 

[Jame]

TM had a few more to play with.



It's really not. It's too bad that those are the only four non-top picks that you can point to, considering the vast potential of the 2015 draft that went for naught. Don't get caught up again in some TM vs Botts meltdown. This is a pre-TM problem that hasn't been address correctly for over a decade.

Somebody has to start thinking long-term at some point. I don't care if it's Botterill or Daffy Duck...Buffalo is a franchise that has to focus on draft and development. Fumbling through it doesn't mean big trades is right, it means you have to be better within your long-term plan. I not pro-Botterill, I'm pro draft/development until a moment comes when it makes sense to make an over-the-top slash.

There are zero non top picks that you can point to on Botts resume (even though you tried to)... and whose scouts do you think identified Ukko... and Laaksonen... and Bryson?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

There are zero non top picks that you can point to on Botts resume (even though you tried to)... and whose scouts do you think identified Ukko... and Laaksonen... and Bryson?

Ugh...it's obviously still wait-and-see for guys that were just drafted 1-2 years ago. All I did was correctly point to some promising picks that have impressed. Clearly they still need to make the jump to being a quality NHLer. TM's draftees should be ready, at least those that have the potential. The caveat being that under TM they could have really killed it in the 2015 draft and didn't. They could have a top-four D-man right now but have Nylander instead.

Edit - and I don't give a flyin' flip about whose scouts are whose. It's up to the GM to use that info and draft or not draft.

 

[Jame]

Awful situation he inherited:

2 Seasons of Tim/Abysmal:68W, 73L, 23OTL.

Last two seasons:
58W, 84L,22 OTL (roughly a .340 win percentage)

Dont take seriously anyone who thinks inheriting a roster with ROR, Eichel, Reinhart is an awful situation.

Botts inherited a completely normal situation, arguably one better than the average new hire GM inherits.... and he proceeded to muck it up royally in his first year. From hiring Housley, to making tank level roster additions, to turning most of the prime aged NHL talent in to nothing via trades/releases... his tenure will go down in history as a Mike Milbury level fool.

 

[sabremike]

No problem, you can ignore the promise of some of these picks for now. Don't be ducking when some of these guys become impact NHLers.

As I said before, there were two exceptions that were worth it. I'll take Skinner just like I was fine with the O'Reilly trade. I'll take Montour over Lehner, and why Lehner got his @#$% together only speak well of Botterill. It doesn't justify TM paying a 2015 1st for a pre-head-on-straight Lehner.

This just reminds me of another byproduct of Botts screwing up: Because of a move that need not be mentioned his super draft pick Casey was forced to be counted on to be a major contributor and couldn't be sheltered. Instead he ended up being put in a position where he got killed so bad on a nightly basis and his flaws exposed so bad that how he is viewed as a prospect plummeted to where there are actually people who think he ends up a bust (something that would've been unthinkable before the season).

 

[joshjull]

This just reminds me of another byproduct of Botts screwing up: Because of a move that need not be mentioned his super draft pick Casey was forced to be counted on to be a major contributor and couldn't be sheltered. Instead he ended up being put in a position where he got killed so bad on a nightly basis and his flaws exposed so bad that how he is viewed as a prospect plummeted to where there are actually people who think he ends up a bust (something that would've been unthinkable before the season).

Mitts minutes and usage clearly show he was sheltered and was in no way being asked to be a major contributor. I’m always baffled when some try to make this argument when there is nothing to support it.

 

[sabremike]

Mitts minutes and usage clearly show he was sheltered and was in no way being asked to be a major contributor. I’m always baffled when some try to make this argument when there is nothing to support it.

But the problem is that de facto he was because our centers outside of Jack were Mount Trashmore and Casey was viewed as one of our very few talented or skilled players. Also when it was clear he wasn't ready we really couldn't do anything because our depth was so pitiful there wasn't really anyone we had who could replace him.

 

[zenthusiast]

Don't get personal.

 

[wunderpanda]

Seriously. There has to be someone else here that thinks Botts has done a great job so far?

I won't say *great job* but better than Murray, so overall he's been an improvement.

 

[sabremike]

I won't say *great job* but better than Murray, so overall he's been an improvement.

I think that's like saying someone is a better MLS player than Andrew Shue.

 

[Jame]

Mitts minutes and usage clearly show he was sheltered and was in no way being asked to be a major contributor. I’m always baffled when some try to make this argument when there is nothing to support it.

Don’t get baffled by semantics... Casey was rushed to the NHL, he wasn’t ready (as evidenced by being generally terrible in the easiest minutes possible).

Mitts being rushed to an NHL job he wasn’t SSU for was absolutely a byproduct of the ROR trade.

 

[SabresFan26]

I won't say *great job* but better than Murray, so overall he's been an improvement.

He’s done some necessary things and was patient. Remove the ROR trade and people would be singing his praises. He inherited a horrible cap situation and is finally nearing the end of it minus Okposo/Bogosian and a few others.

If Binnington didn’t show up, St. Louis may very well have sold assets and we could’ve been talking about a top 15 pick or next years pick for them which would change the perception of the trade.

For me, this summer will really define/showcase Botterill. It is time to really shape the roster and win/play meaningful hockey in April. Tomorrow will be an interesting first step.