Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Dreakon13]

If you're a billionaire with an openly professed love of the sport, how does your team go from middling playoff contender, to perennial joke under this clown.

When were we a "playoff contender" exactly...?

 

[Chainshot]

If you're a billionaire with an openly professed love of the sport, how does your team go from middling playoff contender, to perennial joke under this clown.

Leaving a GM with maladaptive methods in charge for a time before hiring consecutive noobs?

 

[Gabrielor]

When were we a "playoff contender" exactly...?

2008-2012? (2011-2012, specifically, under the aforementioned)

And the wording is spot on. Playoff contender, not championship contender. Aka bubble team.

 

[Dreakon13]

2008-2012? (2011-2012, specifically, under the aforementioned)

Was "this clown" referring to Pegula or Botteril? I assumed Botteril given the phrasing and the thread topic.

Stating the obvious but Botteril wasn't the GM 2008-2012. Infact, he wasn't the GM until well into the "perennial joke" years.

 

[Chainshot]

Was "this clown" referring to Pegula or Botteril? I assumed Botteril given the phrasing and the thread topic.

Stating the obvious but Botteril wasn't the GM 2008-2012. Infact, he wasn't the GM until well into the "perennial joke" years.

Clown seems to refer to Terry.

 

[Fezzy126]

If you're a billionaire with an openly professed love of the sport, how does your team go from middling playoff contender, to perennial joke under this clown.

There are 31 billionaire owners in the league, all with near infinite resources and a passion for the sport, having money doesn't guarantee results.

 

[OkimLom]

When were we a "playoff contender" exactly...?

November 28th 2018

 

[Jame]

Was "this clown" referring to Pegula or Botteril? I assumed Botteril given the phrasing and the thread topic.

Stating the obvious but Botteril wasn't the GM 2008-2012. Infact, he wasn't the GM until well into the "perennial joke" years.

We had exited the perennial joke years with Murray, Botts took us back to being a joke.

 

[Dreakon13]

November 28th 2018

I hope I don't need to explain the logical fallacy there. That wasn't a playoff team, as the remainder of the season should've kindly pointed out to you.

We had exited the perennial joke years with Murray, Botts took us back to being a joke.

Smokescreen. It was a bad team topping out at 80 points because Bylsma had them playing lowest common denominator hockey. They were still a joke.

 

[Jame]

Smokescreen. It was a bad team topping out at 80 points because Bylsma had them playing lowest common denominator hockey. They were still a joke.

Yea, Bylsma had them playing low event hockey... and they also led the league in man games lost...

 

[OkimLom]

I hope I don't need to explain the logical fallacy there. That wasn't a playoff team, as the remainder of the season should've kindly pointed out to you.

You're fine, as someone that saw that time of the year for what it was, and not what the team was pretending to be, it was said in jest.

 

[Jame]

Jason Botterill has certainly set a record that will never, ever be broken... he exited the following players who won, or got votes for the following THE VERY NEXT YEAR:

Trophy: Won (Votes)
Stanley Cup: ROR
Campbell: ROR
Conn Smythe: ROR
Hart: (ROR)
Lady Byng: (ROR)
Selke: ROR
Vezina: (Lehner)
Jennings: Lehner
Masterton: Lehner

Almost the entirety of the award ceremony was a trolling of Jason Botterill.... probably cost Dahlin the Calder lol

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Jason Botterill has certainly set a record that will never, ever be broken... he exited the following players who won, or got votes for the following THE VERY NEXT YEAR:

Trophy: Won (Votes)
Stanley Cup: ROR
Campbell: ROR
Conn Smythe: ROR
Hart: (ROR)
Lady Byng: (ROR)
Selke: ROR
Vezina: (Lehner)
Jennings: Lehner
Masterton: Lehner

Almost the entirety of the award ceremony was a trolling of Jason Botterill.... probably cost Dahlin the Calder lol

Oh please.. There was not a single person - not one - who didn't agree with the decision of not extending a QO to Lehner.

The other guy - that's fair. Although it's not like he switched teams & did it all on his own straight away. Good coaching plus a white hot goalie did more than most to help.

 

[Jame]

Oh please.. There was not a single person - not one - who didn't agree with the decision of not extending a QO to Lehner.

The other guy - that's fair. Although it's not like he switched teams & did it all on his own straight away. Good coaching plus a white hot goalie did more than most to help.

Lol. okay.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Lol. okay.

Lehner?

Confirmed with Link: - Lehner will not return, confirmed by Botterill

I only read the first page - but yeah - it's exactly as I remember.

He-who-can't-be-named?

If the Blues don't make the mid season coaching change or call up Binnington he doesn't get near any of those trophies or awards.

I mean - it was a dumb trade. Nobody is arguing that. But why keep regurgitating it? People need to look forward....

 

[sabremike]

Lehner?

Confirmed with Link: - Lehner will not return, confirmed by Botterill

I only read the first page - but yeah - it's exactly as I remember.

He-who-can't-be-named?

If the Blues don't make the mid season coaching change or call up Binnington he doesn't get near any of those trophies or awards.

I mean - it was a dumb trade. Nobody is arguing that. But why keep regurgitating it? People need to look forward....

Another poster (who sadly I believe no longer posts here) pulled up charts that showed Binnington was pretty much the most sheltered goalie in the entire league in terms of high danger chances he faced. The Blues were essentially a defensive machine that was being killed by a historically bad goalie. Merely getting competent play at the position led to the expected results catching up to the actual results.

 

[UnleashRasmus]

I have no problem with you disagreeing, but why do you think Botterill has the mindset that a player being capable of being a two-way player matters?

I look at his drafting patterns as well in his ability to draft long term sustainability. Aside, from the ROR trade which is a glaring black hole of bad, he's done a fairly decent job. I will admit when you give up a player who just won the Selke it is hard to garner much credibility. However, I look at Sheary being a worthy gamble at the time (minus Hunwick), his trade for Skinner and ultimate re-signing (which was a must), the Montour trade, which in essence has given the Sabres a secondary puck carrier we haven't had since the days of Campbell, Lydman etc. Yes, the Berglund, Sobotka additions are just that, major flaws. However, at this point he's done a decent job drafting, and Rochester is coming off back to back playoff runs. Whether, that's the biggest push we've seen, I still look the OVERALL body of work. He's been patient enough to not blow everything up for the sake of "him taking over a mess".

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Another poster (who sadly I believe no longer posts here) pulled up charts that showed Binnington was pretty much the most sheltered goalie in the entire league in terms of high danger chances he faced. The Blues were essentially a defensive machine that was being killed by a historically bad goalie. Merely getting competent play at the position led to the expected results catching up to the actual results.

Maybe we have different understandings of the word 'competent' but none the less without Binnington or the coaching change they likely finish below us. Let alone even make the playoffs. Cut it up any way you want.

It's not like he'd have come close to winning any of these playing on Buffalo last season either... The sad truth.

As I said - dumb trade but please can people just move on?

As for trying to crap on Botts for cutting ties with Lehner... Really? Are we getting this low now?

 

[Jame]

Maybe we have different understandings of the word 'competent' but none the less without Binnington or the coaching change they likely finish below us. Let alone even make the playoffs. Cut it up any way you want.

It's not like he'd have come close to winning any of these playing on Buffalo last season either... The sad truth.

As I said - dumb trade but please can people just move on?

As for trying to crap on Botts for cutting ties with Lehner... Really? Are we getting this low now?

I crap on Botts for every single thing he did. He deserves zero benefit of the doubt. He's historically awful. Every single move he made should be judged within the context of his stupidity.

 

[sabremike]

I crap on Botts for every single thing he did. He deserves zero benefit of the doubt. He's historically awful. Every single move he made should be judged within the context of his stupidity.

I totally agree with what you are saying but Lehner is the one thing I can't blame him for. His handling of that situation is the only thing he has ever done that improved our image as an organization.

 

[OkimLom]

I look at his drafting patterns as well in his ability to draft long term sustainability. Aside, from the ROR trade which is a glaring black hole of bad, he's done a fairly decent job. I will admit when you give up a player who just won the Selke it is hard to garner much credibility. However, I look at Sheary being a worthy gamble at the time (minus Hunwick), his trade for Skinner and ultimate re-signing (which was a must), the Montour trade, which in essence has given the Sabres a secondary puck carrier we haven't had since the days of Campbell, Lydman etc. Yes, the Berglund, Sobotka additions are just that, major flaws. However, at this point he's done a decent job drafting, and Rochester is coming off back to back playoff runs. Whether, that's the biggest push we've seen, I still look the OVERALL body of work. He's been patient enough to not blow everything up for the sake of "him taking over a mess".

I was talking about this idea about two-way ability being attribute of a player, not necessarily his work as a GM. But I could provide my opinion on that.

He's done okay at bringing in talent, but team construction he leaves a lot desired. The Skinner trade was a horrible trade until he re-signed in terms of asset management. I'm of the opinion that he did a terrible job at getting a team friendly deal and paid market value at a time where we need to be more frugal considering how many holes and roles we need to improve upon. But you can't hate getting a goal scorer signed long term. Montour, is a decent upgrade offensively over Risto's role on the offensive side of the puck, but doesn't move the needle defensively. He's just as bad as Risto. Sheary's role in the organization was already filled with Pominville here. He double-downed on that, all the while gaining a reliable goal scorer for your top 6. He didn't make it easier for Mittelstadt at any point. He is terrible defensively or offensively considering his usage. The Hunwick add-on was unnecessary.

I liked the moves him and Sexton made in Rochester, but it will be interesting to see what he has in store to replace a lot of the major roles. I liked the Pilut signing which carried over to the main roster, until Phil and the coaching staff up here was able to "teach" him things. Then it was downhill from there.

His overall body of work as a General Manager handling the duties and decisions he has to make, is not that great. His decision making on certain guys' readiness is very very questionable. His VERY 1st draft pick he made, IMO, a terrible call at signing him so soon after an average freshman year at UM. His numbers were decent, and his World Juniors he performed well, but his season in the context of learning habits and learning the game to becoming a professional hockey player was not good. He had a lot of holes in his game that needed more conditioning, and it was very apparent he needed to take his offseason workouts seriously (needed to mature) as he came in camp what looked to be slow and out of shape.

His drafting overall is promising at best, and that's it at this point. It's way too soon to determine how well or bad he did after two years, but I can honestly say, right now, his 1st year, when he barely had time to create a gameplan for scouting and determining what type of players he wants, using Murray's guys, was a lot more likable than his 2nd year, which scares me, as I believe his 2nd year should've been way better than his 1st when he can bring in HIS guys.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

I feel like everything with ROR & Lehner is historical hindsight.

We really need to learn to let shit go. The past is the past. None of it matters anymore. Let's get focused on the future.

 

[BuffaloGooner]

FWIW Doug Armstrong made an appearance on the latest episode of Spittin Chiclets and unless I’m reaching and misunderstanding what he said, it really feels like the ROR move was ownership all the way. And I’m not absolving Botterill. He gave in.

 

[OkimLom]

I feel like everything with ROR & Lehner is historical hindsight.

We really need to learn to let **** go. The past is the past. None of it matters anymore. Let's get focused on the future.

Except those people that made the decisions THEN, are still making decisions NOW, and it appears likely, making decisions LATER. Talking about ROR and Lehner are just bringing up some evidence that people should consider when determining we should trust them going forward.

 

[Tatanka]

FWIW Doug Armstrong made an appearance on the latest episode of Spittin Chiclets and unless I’m reaching and misunderstanding what he said, it really feels like the ROR move was ownership all the way. And I’m not absolving Botterill. He gave in.

That might be the saddest thing I have read on this board, if true.