Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[sabremike]

FWIW Doug Armstrong made an appearance on the latest episode of Spittin Chiclets and unless I’m reaching and misunderstanding what he said, it really feels like the ROR move was ownership all the way. And I’m not absolving Botterill. He gave in.

And Botts needed to be Stick Michael telling Steinbrenner I'm not trading this Bernie Williams kid.

 

[Chainshot]

That might be the saddest thing I have read on this board, if true.

So much for drilling a well.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

I crap on Botts for every single thing he did. He deserves zero benefit of the doubt. He's historically awful. Every single move he made should be judged within the context of his stupidity.

This type of measured reasonable approach is what makes discussing certain subjects on this forum so much fun.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

Except those people that made the decisions THEN, are still making decisions NOW, and it appears likely, making decisions LATER. Talking about ROR and Lehner are just bringing up some evidence that people should consider when determining we should trust them going forward.

How sure can we be though that if those players were still here, they would have performed to the same caliber and delivered us the same results that they delivered their current franchises? It's chaos, and it's all speculative at best.

There are so many other circumstances that contributed to the outcomes we saw play out. I just feel like the conversation is a rocking chair - gives us something to do, doesn't get us anywhere. It's as relevant to me now as any conversation about Mikhail Grigorenko.

Just what I believe. So we failed. Let's at least fail forward.

 

[OkimLom]

How sure can we be though that if those players were still here, they would have performed to the same caliber and delivered us the same results that they delivered their current franchises? It's chaos, and it's all speculative at best.

There are so many other circumstances that contributed to the outcomes we saw play out. I just feel like the conversation is a rocking chair - gives us something to do, doesn't get us anywhere. It's as relevant to me now as any conversation about Mikhail Grigorenko.

Just what I believe. So we failed. Let's at least fail forward.

It's not the results of how they performed on their teams, that I care about, it's the journey that happened that got them to those other teams. How Botts handled those decisions and other aspects of the timing of them, that's what I care about when discussing about a GM's merits.

 

[Chainshot]

I'm hoping he starts backing up his pre-hiring hype any minute now.

I don't dislike him, but I do dislike much his entire body of work. I'd like for him to start changing that, to start liking what he's doing. Ultimately, it's over 2 years of wondering if he can identify who his good players are and if he can identify good players from other teams. It would be refreshing if that wasn't in question so wholeheartedly.

 

[UnleashRasmus]

Evidenced by what?



How is 2 years of dead cap space a "fairly decent job"?
He took on TWO conditions in the trade...
1. We had to give up a higher pick if Sheary did what we were acquiring him to do (20 goals)
2. We had to give up an additional pick we we did with Hunwick what Pittsburgh tried to do (trade him for something).

The trade was all sorts of stupid.



Skinner chose Buffalo. The only thing Botts deserves credit for is paying a max contract.



We traded a 1st and one of our top 5 prospects. And we once again included a moronic clause that allowed for the potential that Anaheim could gain upwards of 10 spots in the first round based on the outcome of other teams.



His draft record is barely measurable at this point... and the one POSITIVE he has on his resume is that he's built Rochester in to a team that gets railed in the 1st round.



His expansion draft was terrible.
He lost the Foligno trade
He gave away Beaulieu for nothing
He gave away Fedun for nothing
He gave away Lehner for nothing
He signed Pouliot, Griffith, Tennyson, Josefson to be NHLers
He added Jordan Nolan and Scott Wilson to play full time NHL roles
He traded a 6th for a future 6th, when 5 minutes later another GM traded a 6th for a future 5th
He hired Phil Housley
He signed Chad Johnson to actual play NHL games in goal

His body of work is ****ing catastrophe



Are you insane? Blowing it up is exactly what he did last summer.

I see some of your points. The Foligno trade is debatable, what exactly has Tyler Ennis done since being traded to Minnesota. The point spread on one versus the other is debatable. Year one of Scandella vs year two, is a logistical point. However, I don't particularly agree on everything. What were you expecting on Lehner. Four seasons of mediocre inconsistency, and a depression issue. Not exactly Botterill's fault. Beaulieu again, yes was brought in for a third, however he never even recouped value equivalent of a fourth round pick. You're looking at some of these things in some cases in a very pessimistic short sighted view. I agree with a lot of what you're saying in deference.

 

[Reddawg]

He gave away Lehner for nothing

And every last one of us celebrated when he did. a $4m qualifying offer to a goalie who did absolutely nothing but prove he couldn't be an NHL goalie for us would have been at the tippy top of your list if Botts had actually given one to Lehner. He wouldn't have had his come to Jesus moment and sorted his life out to become a Vezina candidate and Masterson winner. He would have just kept on doing what he was doing only with $4m more Pegulabucks.

 

[Jame]

I see some of your points. The Foligno trade is debatable, what exactly has Tyler Ennis done since being traded to Minnesota. The point spread on one versus the other is debatable. Year one of Scandella vs year two, is a logistical point. However, I don't particularly agree on everything. What were you expecting on Lehner. Four seasons of mediocre inconsistency, and a depression issue. Not exactly Botterill's fault. Beaulieu again, yes was brought in for a third, however he never even recouped value equivalent of a fourth round pick. You're looking at some of these things in some cases in a very pessimistic short sighted view. I agree with a lot of what you're saying in deference.

I’m looking at these trades without trying to sugar coat them

The end result of the foligno trade is Minnesota got the best player, the better draft pick, and more cap space.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Another poster (who sadly I believe no longer posts here) pulled up charts that showed Binnington was pretty much the most sheltered goalie in the entire league in terms of high danger chances he faced. The Blues were essentially a defensive machine that was being killed by a historically bad goalie. Merely getting competent play at the position led to the expected results catching up to the actual results.

While there might be some stats which suggest that, there's others which put that claim in question. For example Binnington was #1 in the league for Adjusted Goals Against Average, #4 for Adjusted Goals Allowed, and#12!!! for Goals Saved Above Average. That last stat is insane considering its a counting stat which takes shot quality into account.

StL was good at controlling HDSA and SCA, but they still were lights out once chances got through.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

So much for drilling a well.

Have you not seen the price of oil since that statement? The bottom dropped out of hydrocarbons about 30 seconds after Pegula bought downtown Buffalo.

 

[Jame]

And every last one of us celebrated when he did. a $4m qualifying offer to a goalie who did absolutely nothing but prove he couldn't be an NHL goalie for us would have been at the tippy top of your list if Botts had actually given one to Lehner. He wouldn't have had his come to Jesus moment and sorted his life out to become a Vezina candidate and Masterson winner. He would have just kept on doing what he was doing only with $4m more Pegulabucks.

And everyone was wrong

 

[UnleashRasmus]

I’m looking at these trades without trying to sugar coat them

The end result of the foligno trade is Minnesota got the best player, the better draft pick, and more cap space.

Fair enough. That's a completely fair assessment.

 

[jc17]

Same way everyone was wrong about the Scandella trade.

Almost as if roster moves aren't as simple as we make them out to be

 

[BuzzKillington90]

And everyone was wrong

well yea...but why are we condemning Botterill for what everyone thought was a valid decision? Slightly hypocritical no? While the excuse that "He should have known better, he's the GM" could be used... it's also fitting to point out that we consistently think we know better then him....

 

[Jame]

well yea...but why are we condemning Botterill for what everyone thought was a valid decision? Slightly hypocritical no? While the excuse that "He should have known better, he's the GM" could be used... it's also fitting to point out that we consistently think we know better then him....

Because it's his job to get it right.

And at the time, while I didn't have a problem with walking away from Lehner... I did note that it was pretty silly for a GM who paid Chad Johnson 2.5 million, to turn around and walk away from Lehner at 4.0... especially after he protected him in expansion, and failed to sign Cal Petersen.

The only context within which these outcomes make any sense... is the one that says Botts is a functioning moron.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

well yea...but why are we condemning Botterill for what everyone thought was a valid decision? Slightly hypocritical no? While the excuse that "He should have known better, he's the GM" could be used... it's also fitting to point out that we consistently think we know better then him....

Botts has made some bad moves. If you're a poster who was a big fan of Murray and wants to forget about those days, or defend them, hammering Botts relentlessly is mighty fine sport.

 

[BuzzKillington90]

Because it's his job to get it right.

And at the time, while I didn't have a problem with walking away from Lehner... I did note that it was pretty silly for a GM who paid Chad Johnson 2.5 million, to turn around and walk away from Lehner at 4.0... especially after he protected him in expansion, and failed to sign Cal Petersen.

The only context within which these outcomes make any sense... is the one that says Botts is a functioning moron.

I'm not a fan of Botterills body of work by any means, but Cal Peterson chose not to sign. We can't force him too. Lehner by all reports was a head-case that we would have had to commit 4 million towards... I'm glad he turned it around, but thats not an unrealistic decision for Botterill to make. It's easy for us to sit here and make decisions on whether or not we should sign player A or trade for player B, but the reality is we aren't accountable for it. Just my two cents.

Botts has made some bad moves. If you're a poster who was a big fan of Murray and wants to forget about those days, or defend them, hammering Botts relentlessly is mighty fine sport.

I liked Murray's interviews and his willingness to take chances, I didn't like his habit of selling everything to get what he wanted.

 

[OkimLom]

And every last one of us celebrated when he did. a $4m qualifying offer to a goalie who did absolutely nothing but prove he couldn't be an NHL goalie for us would have been at the tippy top of your list if Botts had actually given one to Lehner. He wouldn't have had his come to Jesus moment and sorted his life out to become a Vezina candidate and Masterson winner. He would have just kept on doing what he was doing only with $4m more Pegulabucks.

Letting a Restricted Free Agent walk for nothing is poor asset management no matter how "right" or "wrong" it is to give him a QO.

 

[GameMisconduct]

well yea...but why are we condemning Botterill for what everyone thought was a valid decision? Slightly hypocritical no? While the excuse that "He should have known better, he's the GM" could be used... it's also fitting to point out that we consistently think we know better then him....

I think it's still fair to note when looking at his overall track record. More in the context of 'there are actually quite a few things results show he has been wrong about' than a 'he should be significantly criticized for this specific thing' sort of vein. I don't think he necessarily should have known better just because he is the GM, but getting things wrong matters differently for him than us.

That last sentence is a little loaded (I wouldn't say all fans think they know better, but that they are entitled to have opinions) and in that way it pretty much captures the fan-management dynamic for most teams. I don't think that anyone in sports should be immune to assessments of their actions for good or ill just because of their position.

 

[Jame]

I'm not a fan of Botterills body of work by any means, but Cal Peterson chose not to sign. We can't force him too. Lehner by all reports was a head-case that we would have had to commit 4 million towards... I'm glad he turned it around, but thats not an unrealistic decision for Botterill to make. It's easy for us to sit here and make decisions on whether or not we should sign player A or trade for player B, but the reality is we aren't accountable for it. Just my two cents.



I liked Murray's interviews and his willingness to take chances, I didn't like his habit of selling everything to get what he wanted.

Murray's failures had nothing to do with all these assets he used to acquire legit, young, mid to top tier NHL talent. Murray's failures were as a communicator who could build a sustainable program.

 

[Reddawg]

Same way everyone was wrong about the Scandella trade.

Almost as if roster moves aren't as simple as we make them out to be

Especially the guy who pushed for his acquisition for two years straight.

 

[Reddawg]

Letting a Restricted Free Agent walk for nothing is poor asset management no matter how "right" or "wrong" it is to give him a QO.

Not if both of the following are true:
A - The player has no trade value
B - The player would be badly overpaid by the minimum the team is permitted to offer him on a contract

We're letting Remy Elie walk as an RFA this year, is that poor asset management? Or is it just possible that he's not an asset at the minimum salary we'd be allowed to offer him, but a detriment instead?

 

[Jame]

Especially the guy who pushed for his acquisition for two years straight.

in 2014-15

 

[jc17]

in 2014-15

You saying you weren't happy with the trade?