Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Jame]

This is nuts. If Botts traded 2 2nds and McNabb for Fedun, Beaulieu and a 3rd you'd be repeating it every other post as a reason to fire him.

Why? Turning 2nds in to NHLers is good business.

People see "2nd rounder" and thinks it's more valuable then a guy who played playoff hockey on a contender (Fedun)

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Why? Turning 2nds in to NHLers is good business.

People see "2nd rounder" and thinks it's more valuable then a guy who played playoff hockey on a contender (Fedun)

Laughable

We're supposed to take as gospel the words of someone who thinks Fedun, as a rental no less, is more valuable than a 2nd?

AND that's ignoring also dumping McNabb along the way.

 

[Jame]

I know you like to down play it for.. reasons which are surely not biased, but the Skinner trade was good.

The Skinner trade deserves to be downplayed and everyone knows why.

And the Montour trade looks good. He's a really steady 24 year old RHD. It goes to show how much of a tire fire everything is that he's not talked about more. I think he's a bright spot for Buffalo moving forward.

I want the Montour trade to work out. I have a positive outlook on his future as a puck driver... but he's NOT steady at all. I think the reason he's not talked about more, is because we paid the cost associated with a more proven player. We paid more for unproven Montour, than we received for proven Kane.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

Is it paranoid to worry that the other NHL GM trained at Shero's hand who is making dubious moves is cause for concern with his other GM protege?

When it's time to replace Botterill I'm staying far away from Fitzgerald and Guerin.

People will laugh at the idea but I think Martin Biron would make a good GM.

 

[OkimLom]

I know you like to down play it for.. reasons which are surely not biased, but the Skinner trade was good.

And the Montour trade looks good. He's a really steady 24 year old RHD. It goes to show how much of a tire fire everything is that he's not talked about more. I think he's a bright spot for Buffalo moving forward.

It wasn't a good trade until Skinner re-signed. Before that, it was a risk to waste of assets and a prospect to bring in talent in a year where we would not be actively trying to be competitive for only that year. If Skinner walked and signed with someone else, it would be looked at as a blemish on Botterill's record to take a risk without guarantee of signing him and without recouping the potential loss at any point.

 

[Jame]

Laughable

We're supposed to take as gospel the words of someone who thinks Fedun, as a rental no less, is more valuable than a 2nd?

AND that's ignoring also dumping McNabb along the way.

No one is going to pay a 2nd for Fedun. Too much value is placed in the 20% chance of even getting a Fedun with that 2nd round pick.

The point is the assets that lead to organizational depth were wasted by both GMs. Murray pissed away the lotto tickets you HOPE create depth, while Botts pissed away actual depth.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

The Skinner trade deserves to be downplayed and everyone knows why.



I want the Montour trade to work out. I have a positive outlook on his future as a puck driver... but he's NOT steady at all. I think the reason he's not talked about more, is because we paid the cost associated with a more proven player. We paid more for unproven Montour, than we received for proven Kane.

Maybe one of those players was a rental and the other is still under contract? Or does that mean nothing?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

No one is going to pay a 2nd for Fedun. Too much value is placed in the 20% chance of even getting a Fedun with that 2nd round pick.

The point is the assets that lead to organizational depth were wasted by both GMs. Murray pissed away the lotto tickets you HOPE create depth, while Botts pissed away actual depth.

So Brayden McNabb: actual depth, lottery ticket, or something you'd prefer not to talk about?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

It wasn't a good trade until Skinner re-signed. Before that, it was a risk to waste of assets and a prospect to bring in talent in a year where we would not be actively trying to be competitive for only that year. If Skinner walked and signed with someone else, it would be looked at as a blemish on Botterill's record to take a risk without guarantee of signing him and without recouping the potential loss at any point.

By that logic please analyze the trade which brought RoR to Buffalo. I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Jame]

Maybe one of those players was a rental and the other is still under contract? Or does that mean nothing?

In this context, yes it means nothing.

Fedun would've been the easiest re-sign in history, and Beaulieu was going to be RFA... however, Jason Botterill decided to take on another cap dump level player (Hunwick) in a trade that did nothing to make the Sabres better... on top of that, he included an asinine clause that stipulated if we traded Hunwick we owed Pittsburgh a 3rd rounder.... this clogging of the NHL roster kept Pilut in Rochester when he fully demonstrated he belonged in the NHL until we could give Beaulieu away for peanuts......

Hius complete and total failure to manager the blueline led to the exit of not one, but two decent NHL defensemen. Meanwhile, we're left with multiple cap dump/useless players on the NHL roster for a 3rd year...

 

[Jame]

By that logic please analyze the trade which brought RoR to Buffalo. I'll hang up and listen.

ROR was signed days after the trade... a year before becoming a free agent.... clearly, they knew they could get a deal done before the trade...

 

[Jame]

So Brayden McNabb: actual depth, lottery ticket, or something you'd prefer not to talk about?

Actual depth

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

In this context, yes it means nothing.

Fedun would've been the easiest re-sign in history, and Beaulieu was going to be RFA... however, Jason Botterill decided to take on another cap dump level player (Hunwick) in a trade that did nothing to make the Sabres better... on top of that, he included an asinine clause that stipulated if we traded Hunwick we owed Pittsburgh a 3rd rounder.... this clogging of the NHL roster kept Pilut in Rochester when he fully demonstrated he belonged in the NHL until we could give Beaulieu away for peanuts......

Hius complete and total failure to manager the blueline led to the exit of not one, but two decent NHL defensemen. Meanwhile, we're left with multiple cap dump/useless players on the NHL roster for a 3rd year...

The context was the trade for Montour, under contract and team control vs. Kane pending UFA. Please stay on topic.

 

[Sabretooth]

I expect to look at any move he makes with a critical eye. I want what he does these next two weeks to work out. I am, like all of you, sick to death of this ****ing team being terrible. Make some improvement. Start something where they begin to crawl out of the bottom of the hole they are in, regardless of his part in making that hole.

Unfortunately, I don't believe they've even stopped digging yet *glances at Risto rumors again*

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

ROR was signed days after the trade... a year before becoming a free agent.... clearly, they knew they could get a deal done before the trade...

I believe Murray stated he did not know at the time of the trade that he'd sign.

 

[OkimLom]

By that logic please analyze the trade which brought RoR to Buffalo. I'll hang up and listen.

Same idea, it was an overpayment of assets for a guy with one year remaining and could've been considered bad trade for the long term, until ROR re-signed with the team. Again, good thought process, much like the Skinner idea. If ROR walked and decided to leave after that year, then it would've looked bad for Murray for sure. But because ROR signed 6 days later the 7 year deal, it was a great move. We didn't even get a chance to see if the team was striving to be competitive.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Plenty of rational thinking on display here boys - keep it up.

The hypocritical way that you are analysing these moves shows a clear agenda.

Attempting to compare Montour (RFA with term) to Kane (pending UFA) is laughable. You guys are better than this.

The majority of Botts moves have been positive or of little consequence. Skinner, Montour being the main two.

One major trade was a disaster.... Which JB may or may not have been completely accountable for.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

Plenty of rational thinking on display here boys - keep it up.

The hypocritical way that you are analysing these moves shows a clear agenda.

Attempting to compare Montour (RFA with term) to Kane (pending UFA) is laughable. You guys are better than this.

The majority of Botts moves have been positive or of little consequence. Skinner, Montour being the main two.

One major trade was a disaster.... Which JB may or may not have been completely accountable for.

Skinner fell into his large lap. The Montour trade - far too early to judge. I think Guhle will be the equal of Montour in a couple of seasons.

 

[sabremike]

Plenty of rational thinking on display here boys - keep it up.

The hypocritical way that you are analysing these moves shows a clear agenda.

Attempting to compare Montour (RFA with term) to Kane (pending UFA) is laughable. You guys are better than this.

The majority of Botts moves have been positive or of little consequence. Skinner, Montour being the main two.

One major trade was a disaster.... Which JB may or may not have been completely accountable for.

When Botts took over we were a bottom 10 team, bad enough that both the GM and Coach were justly sacked. Where are we now? After the draft every single team in the entire league except Ottawa and Detroit will be miles ahead of us. Detroit is run by arguably the best GM in the league. Ottawa is owned by a guy who absolutely refuses to spend any money but even Dorian (who is viewed as pretty bad) managed to put together a prospects pool that is significantly better than ours.

 

[Chainshot]

I know you like to down play it for.. reasons which are surely not biased, but the Skinner trade was good.

And the Montour trade looks good. He's a really steady 24 year old RHD. It goes to show how much of a tire fire everything is that he's not talked about more. I think he's a bright spot for Buffalo moving forward.

I view the Skinner deal as baseline acceptable - he had a guy who would only go to Buffalo or Toronto and Toronto couldn't accommodate him.

I'm hopeful that Montour is a good acquisition. He's exciting, both in good and bad ways which has some entertainment value.

 

[Montag DP]

I view the Skinner deal as baseline acceptable - he had a guy who would only go to Buffalo or Toronto and Toronto couldn't accommodate him.

I'm hopeful that Montour is a good acquisition. He's exciting, both in good and bad ways which has some entertainment value.

I also think it's too early to give up on Sheary. It's hard to evaluate players under Housley, because almost everyone outside the top line was terrible.

 

[Chainshot]

So Brayden McNabb: actual depth, lottery ticket, or something you'd prefer not to talk about?

McNabb was my favorite prospect at the time he was dealt. And yet I still don't know if Buffalo would have turned him out the way LA did. If they had, he would be idolized in town because while he's slow, he plays the sort of heavy game fans want and at his size, he's never going to be mis-cast by observers who think big should equal mean. That guy... definite wistful feelings there.

 

[Fezzy126]

McNabb was my favorite prospect at the time he was dealt. And yet I still don't know if Buffalo would have turned him out the way LA did. If they had, he would be idolized in town because while he's slow, he plays the sort of heavy game fans want and at his size, he's never going to be mis-cast by observers who think big should equal mean. That guy... definite wistful feelings there.

I also loved McNabb as a prospect here. But I'd add that LA wasn't exactly devastated when he left either, he was viewed as a replaceable dman that was capable of being carried by Doughty.

Every time I see a reference to Vegas defensemen I do wonder if anyone actually watches them play. The amount of support they receive from their forwards is better than any team in the league. Once they break possession, a forward is typically located within 10-feet for a quick, easy (mindless), outlet out of the zone. If the simple play isn't here, they go high and hard off the glass almost every time, where their forwards use their speed to chase and create hell in the neutral zone causing turnovers and eventual chances in transition. Vegas' style is the epitome of the argument that your forwards drive play and provide more overall value than your defensemen, it really is amazing to watch.

So, a bit off topic, but I guess that's my way of saying please don't acquire any Vegas defensemen not named Schmidt.

 

[Chainshot]

I also think it's too early to give up on Sheary. It's hard to evaluate players under Housley, because almost everyone outside the top line was terrible.

Sheary I found endlessly frustrating. He was an ES point machine, albeit with Sid a few years ago and Pens fans offered warnings about what his game had been in the intervening season. It's an easy comment that "anyone could score points on Sid's wing" since it isn't always the case, but he was still playing with one of the best fore-checkers and puck retrieval guys in the league. Nobody does what that wide-ass does down low to protect and win pucks. And there isn't anyone on the Sabres who comes even remotely close.

I'm old school in that I think zone starts matter if they are slanted heavily in one direction or another. Some guys are definitely better at starting in their own zone and moving the puck up to end in the other team's zone -- one such guy even got traded for a 1st round draft pick a few years back that is still a deadline day punchline yet was exactly what Poile was looking for -- while others aren't. Sheary was getting 70% OZS this season and was barely CF% positive and was still a negative 11 in 5-on-5 GF/GA ratio. Heck, he had a lower GF% than Larsson and just a smidge above Girgensons and they regularly ate a bag of defensive zones for starts as we've detailed elsewhere. (Larry was outscored 33 - 26 at 5-on-5 and Gus 34 - 23 by comparison, despite the epic 80+% d-zone use.

Anyway... with all that opportunity, I did not like Sheary.

 

[Chainshot]

I also loved McNabb as a prospect here. But I'd add that LA wasn't exactly devastated when he left either, he was viewed as a replaceable dman that was capable of being carried by Doughty.

Every time I see a reference to Vegas defensemen I do wonder if anyone actually watches them play. The amount of support they receive from their forwards is better than any team in the league. Once they break possession, a forward is typically located within 10-feet for a quick, easy (mindless), outlet out of the zone. If the simple play isn't here, they go high and hard off the glass almost every time, where their forwards use their speed to chase and create hell in the neutral zone causing turnovers and eventual chances in transition. Vegas' style is the epitome of the argument that your forwards drive play and provide more overall value than your defensemen, it really is amazing to watch.

So, a bit off topic, but I guess that's my way of saying please don't acquire any Vegas defensemen not named Schmidt.

Like, like, like, like, like....

Simple hockey. Give d-men outlets. Stop and start hard, go in straight lines, arrive first and win possession... It's akin to every hockey mantra I can remember being screamed by coaches of yesteryear.

I would give a kidney (not my own) to see Buffalo play with that much support and that much purpose. The Knights aren't all fast, but they are purposeful with the puck and without. They contest things... it's the idea of "playing fast" where the options are easy and quick. It isn't about BEING fast. It's about being in the right place and reacting naturally.