TSN: Jake Gardiner or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Advanced Stats

[Falon]

I don't like the 1 D power play with our group. Phaneuf, Rielly and Gardiner are all as offensively capable as the 4th forward their putting out, so it doesn't make much sense to me.

It's about putting an extra, right handed shot at the point. Babcock used the trick in Detroit a bunch and it worked well.

I don't see what all the fuss is about with Gardiner. He's the new Kaberle is all, except he happens to shoot more. I wish people would stop trying to claim that he is so much more than we've seen. The only one's who have untapped upside on the Leafs right now are Reilly and Harrington. I don't remember exactly where I heard it, but I've heard it multiple times, that the 200 game benchmark is a strong indicator of a player's ability. Reilly and Harrington are the only ones who haven't crossed that threshold, the rest of the team has though, which means that what you see is really what they have. They can be coached in a good system, and even be taught to maximize their abilities, but they are what they are.

 

[Gallagbi]

It's about putting an extra, right handed shot at the point. Babcock used the trick in Detroit a bunch and it worked well.

I don't see what all the fuss is about with Gardiner. He's the new Kaberle is all, except he happens to shoot more. I wish people would stop trying to claim that he is so much more than we've seen. The only one's who have untapped upside on the Leafs right now are Reilly and Harrington. I don't remember exactly where I heard it, but I've heard it multiple times, that the 200 game benchmark is a strong indicator of a player's ability. Reilly and Harrington are the only ones who haven't crossed that threshold, the rest of the team has though, which means that what you see is really what they have. They can be coached in a good system, and even be taught to maximize their abilities, but they are what they are.

He's the new Kaberle aka a top pairing, point producing d-man? If he's that, he's more than we've seen.

The wings were heavy on left handed shots the past few years, it was uncommon for them to have multiple RH options on a PP together.

 

[Gallagbi]

Delete

 

[Ovate]

It's about putting an extra, right handed shot at the point. Babcock used the trick in Detroit a bunch and it worked well.

I don't see what all the fuss is about with Gardiner. He's the new Kaberle is all, except he happens to shoot more. I wish people would stop trying to claim that he is so much more than we've seen. The only one's who have untapped upside on the Leafs right now are Reilly and Harrington. I don't remember exactly where I heard it, but I've heard it multiple times, that the 200 game benchmark is a strong indicator of a player's ability. Reilly and Harrington are the only ones who haven't crossed that threshold, the rest of the team has though, which means that what you see is really what they have. They can be coached in a good system, and even be taught to maximize their abilities, but they are what they are.

Why shouldn't we claim he's more than we've seen? He's shown flashes of absolute dominance, and this year it starts to look like he's put it together consistently.

I've heard it's a 300 game benchmark. Gardiner's at 250. Many of the best defenders in the league, like Keith and Hedman, didn't really break out until close to the 300 game mark. Not saying Gardiner will be the next Keith/Hedman, I'm just saying he's still improving.

Although the fact that he's still improving should be obvious to anyone who's watched a game this season. He's already made an improvement over last season.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

I don't like the 1 D power play with our group. Phaneuf, Rielly and Gardiner are all as offensively capable as the 4th forward their putting out, so it doesn't make much sense to me.

Agree 100%.

I'm not angry if Arcobello and Parenteau are not getting PP over Gardiner and Rielly.

It's not like we're benching Malkin or something.

 

[thewave]

Why shouldn't we claim he's more than we've seen? He's shown flashes of absolute dominance, and this year it starts to look like he's put it together consistently.

I've heard it's a 300 game benchmark. Gardiner's at 250. Many of the best defenders in the league, like Keith and Hedman, didn't really break out until close to the 300 game mark. Not saying Gardiner will be the next Keith/Hedman, I'm just saying he's still improving.

Although the fact that he's still improving should be obvious to anyone who's watched a game this season. He's already made an improvement over last season.

Jakey boy looks great! Babcock just needs to keep working with Rielly Kadri and Harrington. Coach was worth every penny.

The beauty thing about Babcock is it shuts all the cocky kids up. I mean nobody can question Mike or they look crazy/dumb. They have it a good as it gets.

 

[burpsalot]

I would like to read some of those old Gardiner threads.

Best thing for Gardiner was being removed from the Carlyle doghouse. Once he had that freedom he started to play the game properly with his strengths. Still made a bonehead play each game though.

I had mentioned last year that I would love to coach a guy like him. Teach him the defensive aspects, but let his skills take off to build his confidence. That's what we are seeing this year, still the mistake here & there but not the bonehead blunders & the coaches seem to concentrate on the positive while making corrections. Good on the coaching staff & on Gardiner.

 

[Muston Atthews]

He's the new Kaberle aka a top pairing, point producing d-man? If he's that, he's more than we've seen.

The wings were heavy on left handed shots the past few years, it was uncommon for them to have multiple RH options on a PP together.

Yeah I fail to see how being "the new Kaberle" is a negative thing lol

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Yeah I fail to see how being "the new Kaberle" is a negative thing lol

This comparison is so apt that I'm surprised it never came up before. Both very smooth skaters who carry the puck with ease but have questionable physicality.

 

[Anthrax442]

Kaberle never shot the puck. We actually had a drinking game where we took a shot each time the play by play guy said "Kaberle fakes a shot"

 

[Swayze*]

Kaberle never shot the puck. We actually had a drinking game where we took a shot each time the play by play guy said "Kaberle fakes a shot"

it got much worse as he got older. This last season he simply would not shoot the puck and the Pkers would just leave him wide open as they knew he wouldn't shoot it.

thing is he had a decent shot....

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Yeah I fail to see how being "the new Kaberle" is a negative thing lol

Lmao. Developing similarly to the best Leafs defenseman in the last ~30 years or so is somehow a bad thing. Right.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Kaberle never shot the puck. We actually had a drinking game where we took a shot each time the play by play guy said "Kaberle fakes a shot"

This is probably one of the biggest fallacies I've ever heard.

Kaberle shot the puck often. Likely not as much as the fans wanted. But still a lot.

Between 2005 and 2012, he ranked 24th in the NHL amongst defensemen with 914 shots.

 

[Ovate]

This is probably one of the biggest fallacies I've ever heard.

Kaberle shot the puck often. Likely not as much as the fans wanted. But still a lot.

Between 2005 and 2012, he ranked 24th in the NHL amongst defensemen with 914 shots.

As was mentioned a few posts up, his shops dropped significantly towards the last few years of his time in Toronto.

Also, 24th means nothing. There really weren't that many defensemen who played big minutes for 7 years straight. Look at shots per 60 over that time for all defensemen with at least 100 games palyed, and watch how his rank drops.

 

[Kubus]

Yeah I fail to see how being "the new Kaberle" is a negative thing lol

Yeah, some people

If Jake turns into a Kaberle we should be excited. I like Jake and I think he can be a good top 4, but if he turns into a legit point producing first pair guy we should jump with joy...especially if you consider how we got him

 

[hfdshdh]

Kaberle was one of the better defensemen in the league in his prime. If Gardiner becomes that, he'll be a helluva bargain at $4M/year.

 

[deletethis]

Gardiner's biggest similarity to Kaberle is his usually peril-free solo escapes from the Leafs' zone with no help from his teammates. Gardiner does with it speed, urgency and swooping edges. Kaberle did it with subtle elusive shiftiness that only a few defenders have in any NHL generation of talent. Kaberle was a far better passer than Gardiner and had better instincts about when to rush the puck deep into the offensive end. Gardiner is more physical than Kaberle ever was and has the potential to be a more effective defender. Gardiner is merely a fraction of the offensive player Kaberle was even in his waning days.

 

[Gallagbi]

This comparison is so apt that I'm surprised it never came up before. Both very smooth skaters who carry the puck with ease but have questionable physicality.

Comes up often, doesn't stick because the similarities are limited after the general ones you mentioned.

 

[p.l.f.]

Kaberle was so smooth at avoiding getting hit and slickly moving the puck out accurately
Jake still needs lots of work on that

 

[Morbo]

Kaberle was much better than Gardiner is so far. Let's be clear about that. This is a guy who pretty much got it right away in the NHL and never looked back.

 

[Falon]

Sorry for the late reply, work/life, you know how it is.

Kaberle was a very good player for the Leafs, and an all-star offensive defenseman. That said, while his offensive skills were elite, his defensive skills were very average. He had a good stick, but he did not have any physicality, and often coughed the puck up under pressure. The similarities between Gardiner and Kaberle are immense, with Kaberle being a better decision maker with the puck, but that only came with time. Neither player is or was, truly elite. I believe Gardiner is capable of playing better defensively than Kaberle, but will sacrifice offensive prowess to do so. He'll find that balance, however he's just not elite in his skills, and I think it's wholly unfair for so many fans have such high expectations of him. He showed skill and promise early, which made people think he had so much more to give. Just because he doesn't have much more, doesn't make him a failure, it just makes him a top 4 offensive defenseman. My commentary is not an insult, it is merely a reflection of what the player has shown. When he is playing with confidence, like he did under Wilson and Babcock, he's plays very well. When he doesn't, under Carlyle and Horachuk, he plays weak. Elite players, play at an elite level, regardless of who they play for. Gardiner is just not that level of player.

 

[Swayze*]

Kaberle cough the puck up?

I'd say the opposite. He was so calm and poised with the puck as well as patient that most forecheckers didn't even bother to come after him, they all just backed off

 

[Falon]

Kaberle cough the puck up?

I'd say the opposite. He was so calm and poised with the puck as well as patient that most forecheckers didn't even bother to come after him, they all just backed off

Have to disagree here. While he was poised with the puck, good forecheckers would go right at him, and force him to make a play. This was the only way to play him, because too much time and space and he'd move the puck to a scorer and get a scoring chance. Forced plays hurt Kaberle's game and he did not have the aggressiveness to push back against a good forecheck.

 

[deletethis]

Have to disagree here. While he was poised with the puck, good forecheckers would go right at him, and force him to make a play. This was the only way to play him, because too much time and space and he'd move the puck to a scorer and get a scoring chance. Forced plays hurt Kaberle's game and he did not have the aggressiveness to push back against a good forecheck.

I really don't recognize the player you're describing. When he had the puck he made aggressive forecheckers look foolish. If you're referring to winning losse pucks in the corner, no he wasn't tremendous at that. But you're also inferring that he could be rushed when possessing the puck. That's just not true.

 

[Swayze*]

Have to disagree here. While he was poised with the puck, good forecheckers would go right at him, and force him to make a play. This was the only way to play him, because too much time and space and he'd move the puck to a scorer and get a scoring chance. Forced plays hurt Kaberle's game and he did not have the aggressiveness to push back against a good forecheck.

Yeah, McCabe maybe, not Kaberle

He was the opposite of that.