Jagr vs Crosby

Who better all time

  • Jagr

  • Crosby


Results are only viewable after voting.

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
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But Jaromir?
Your insistence on slagging on a guy with 201 playoff points is a little odd. Also, if you remove the playoffs when he was in his 40's, he's well over a point a game. Plus, he's in the playoffs practically every year, which is more than you can say about a lot of players.

He's led his team to the playoffs 18 times. Sometimes on middling teams, just getting there is what "clutch" performance is about.

My Best-Carey
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,657
11,548
They absolutely are. You are flat out wrong. -Ignoring durability is the whole purpose of highlighting PPG or GPG as opposed to points and goals.

What you are conveying here is simply your accustomization to PPG/GPG as a substitute for actual accomplishments. You are simply used to it and that alone makes you feel as though it is valid. -That is normal human nature. It's also without logic.
It's not an either or thing as much as one would like to pretend.

Counting stars and full seasons measure something different than PPG which measures rate.

But if course if one wants to focus one just one then ignore the other then we get your case...it's just not a good one.
 

GreatGonzo

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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His playoffs are good, just you would expect better from someone touted as a top 5-10 player of all time by some people.

He isn't even a PPG in the playoffs.

Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, hell even McDavid all have those signature runs as alphas.

But Jaromir?
What would you expect from a guy who’s 5-10 all time then? Because being 5th overall in playoff points speaks pretty loudly.

A lot of players aren’t PPG in the playoffs, and for Jagr, that’s mainly due to how long he played and how he made some deep runs later in his career, he’s still a .97 which is nothing to scoff at, especially at 200 games played, he sits 4th overall. If we do the cut off at ‘08 when he left the league, he sits 2nd In playoff points, 2nd in goals, 5th in assists, and sits among the top in PPG.

Sure, all those guys are playoff warriors, again…doesn’t mean Jagr wasn’t a great playoff performer. The stats speak for themselves.
 
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Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
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It's not an either or thing as much as one would like to pretend.

Counting stars and full seasons measure something different than PPG which measures rate.

But if course if one wants to focus one just one then ignore the other then we get your case...it's just not a good one.

Don’t worry, next he’ll bring out the argument that hockey is the only sport where fans focus on per game numbers instead of whole numbers, and when you bring up the fact that baseball regularly uses rate numbers like the batting or ERA champs, or that the NBA scoring leader is a per game rate and that players regularly have maintenance days now, he’ll claim that those don’t count because there’s a games played minimum, and they still champions record like 3000 hits or 500HRs, once again ignoring that we’re looking at a career of over 1000 games in this instance, or that hockey regularly trumpets things like 500 goals or 1000 points. Ho hum
 

CokenoPepsi

Registered User
Oct 28, 2016
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What would you expect from a guy who’s 5-10 all time then? Because being 5th overall in playoff points speaks pretty loudly.

A lot of players aren’t PPG in the playoffs, and for Jagr, that’s mainly due to how long he played and how he made some deep runs later in his career, he’s still a .97 which is nothing to scoff at, especially at 200 games played, he sits 4th overall. If we do the cut off at ‘08 when he left the league, he sits 2nd In playoff points, 2nd in goals, 5th in assists, and sits among the top in PPG.

Sure, all those guys are playoff warriors, again…doesn’t mean Jagr wasn’t a great playoff performer. The stats speak for themselves.

Sure, Jagr was good I never said he wasn't... He just isn't Crosby good which is what this poll is about.

Playoffs are a reason why
 
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GreatGonzo

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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Sure, Jagr was good I never said he wasn't... He just isn't Crosby good which is what this poll is about.

Playoffs are a reason why
You claimed he got worse come playoff time, which wasn’t true at all. You also said playoffs was a “weak spot” in his resume, which again is confusing for someone with two cups and sits 5th overall in playoffs points

The guy was great in the post season for a majority of his career, he just never had really competitive teams to work with.
 
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Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
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He had Francis in 97-98. The other two years he had Lang, Kovalev and Straka.

Most years Sid had Malkin and a bunch of 40 pt wingers.

None of whom are HHOF'ers or really close to being.

Lang/Straka can contribute a lot of their offensive success to Jagr anyhow. He was certainly the straw that stirred the drink.
 

CokenoPepsi

Registered User
Oct 28, 2016
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You claimed he got worse come playoff time, which wasn’t true at all. You also said playoffs was a “weak spot” in his resume, which again is confusing for someone with two cups and sits 5th overall in playoffs points

The guy was great in the post season for a majority of his career, he just never had really competitive teams to work with.

Regular Season

1.11 PPG
0.44 GPG

Playoffs

0.97 PPG
0.37 GPG

Those look like worse numbers to me.

Playoffs are a weak spot for him when he is in comparison to guys like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin.

Yes, he has two cups where he was 7th and 4th in playoff scoring on those teams.
 

GreatGonzo

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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Regular Season

1.11 PPG
0.44 GPG

Playoffs

0.97 PPG
0.37 GPG

Those look like worse numbers to me.

Playoffs are a weak spot for him when he is in comparison to guys like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin.

Yes, he has two cups where he was 7th and 4th in playoff scoring on those teams.
And again, let’s look at the context. I already mentioned how his PPG suffered by playing more playoff games well into his 40s, which hurts his totals. From 2012-16, he had 20 points in 39 games with only 1 goal. You need to factor in the numbers of years he played past his prime, which again, hurt his overall numbers.

During his prime/peak, he was stellar in the playoffs. He was on some great teams early on when he won two cups, but still had a great performance with 24 points in 21 games during their second run at just 19 years old.

It’s also worth noting that Ovechkin has a lower PPG in the playoffs than Jagr does, while Crosby and Malkins PPG drop as well…
 
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armani

High Jacques
Apr 8, 2005
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That late 80s and early 90s Pittsburgh Jagr was something else, and was dominating against some of the best players to ever play the game. He was scoring 100+ points in the dead puck era. I chose him based on his peak.

Career wise, Crosby is more accomplished, perhaps I would draft him before Jagr because he is a centre with leadership skills and is responsible defensively. Jagr was more offensively dominant where he could score more on his own.

Jagr by a hair (pun intended), one of my all-time favourites.
 
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CokenoPepsi

Registered User
Oct 28, 2016
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And again, let’s look at the context. I already mentioned how his PPG suffered by playing more playoff games well into his 40s, which hurts his totals. From 2012-16, he had 20 points in 39 games with only 1 goal. You need to factor in the numbers of years he played past his prime, which again, hurt his overall numbers.

During his prime/peak, he was stellar in the playoffs. He was on some great teams early on when he won two cups, but still had a great performance with 24 points in 21 games during their second run at just 19 years old.

It’s also worth noting that Ovechkin has a lower PPG in the playoffs than Jagr does, while Crosby and Malkins PPG drop as well…

Regular season with Pittsburgh, Washington, New York.

1.25 PPG

Playoffs.

1.06 PPG

Pretty big drop

Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin may have numbers go down as well but they also showed they can go and up their game to another level....something Jagr just couldn't do.

Jagr is below Sidney Crosby...I don't see that being an insult to him
 

GreatGonzo

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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Regular season with Pittsburgh, Washington, New York.

1.25 PPG

Playoffs.

1.06 PPG

Pretty big drop

Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin may have numbers go down as well but they also showed they can go and up their game to another level....something Jagr just couldn't do.

Jagr is below Sidney Crosby...I don't see that being an insult to him
Again, Malkin and Crosby both experience pretty big drop offs in the post season.

Those 3 also played on much better and more competitive teams to make more of a run for the cup. Jagr elevated his play plenty of times, he just didn’t have the supporting cast those 3 had. One player can only do so much, especially when your next closest teammate is Stu Barns and Rob Brown, while having Martin Straka as your number one center.

Sure, that’s fine. I feel Crosby has the upper hand playoff wise while Jagr has the upper hand regular season wise. All Im saying is your trying way to hard to suggest Jagr wasn’t good in the playoffs.
 
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wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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You claimed he got worse come playoff time, which wasn’t true at all. You also said playoffs was a “weak spot” in his resume, which again is confusing for someone with two cups and sits 5th overall in playoffs points

The guy was great in the post season for a majority of his career, he just never had really competitive teams to work with.
I agree that some people can get crazy in bringing down Jagr's playoff resume but Crosby simply has a better one and his playoff resume ranks better all time than the one Jagr brings.
 

surixon

Registered User
Jul 12, 2003
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Winnipeg
They absolutely are. You are flat out wrong. -Ignoring durability is the whole purpose of highlighting PPG or GPG as opposed to points and goals.

What you are conveying here is simply your accustomization to PPG/GPG as a substitute for actual accomplishments. You are simply used to it and that alone makes you feel as though it is valid. -That is normal human nature. It's also without logic.

I guess by this argument Crosby is just as good a goalscorer and a much superior point producer in the playoffs the same number of seasons. As you said actual accomplishments matter, who cares about context.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,657
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I guess by this argument Crosby is just as good a goalscorer and a much superior point producer in the playoffs the same number of seasons. As you said actual accomplishments matter, who cares about context.
Well he is unless one considers rate but MJ would never do that for the playoffs right?:naughty:
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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Hold on are we actually arguing whether Crosby had better support than post-Lemieux Jagr

Remind me who Pittsburgh's 1G and 1D were from 1998 to 2001 again
It's kind of funny how Letang's reputation on HF has shifted depending on whether it's a discussion about the support Crosby has had versus a discussion solely about where Letang ranks among other defensemen.

Whenever the discussion of "Crosby had all these HoFers to play with" comes up, Letang's suddenly getting credit for being an elite defenseman. But I remember HF back in the 2010-2017 range whenever there'd be "top 20 defensemen in the NHL" polls at the beginning of every season. Letang was consistently dismissed as a product of racking up points on a PP with Crosby and Malkin and a defensive liability that wasn't even a true #1D because he sucked defensively.

Amazing how Letang's reputation swings so dramatically depending on the discussion. :laugh:
 

GreatGonzo

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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It's kind of funny how Letang's reputation on HF has shifted depending on whether it's a discussion about the support Crosby has had versus a discussion solely about where Letang ranks among other defensemen.

Whenever the discussion of "Crosby had all these HoFers to play with" comes up, Letang's suddenly getting credit for being an elite defenseman. But I remember HF back in the 2010-2017 range whenever there'd be "top 20 defensemen in the NHL" polls at the beginning of every season. Letang was consistently dismissed as a product of racking up points on a PP with Crosby and Malkin and a defensive liability that wasn't even a true #1D because he sucked defensively.

Amazing how Letang's reputation swings so dramatically depending on the discussion. :laugh:
Letang was a better defenseman than anything Jagr played with during his peak. Letang was also a Norris finalist in 2013 and finished 4th in 2016.
 
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heretik27

Registered User
Apr 18, 2013
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I'd take Crosby if I had to choose one or the other, but Jagr's got a slight offensive edge over him imo. Crosby is probably one of the safest picks at center ever, very consistent player over the years and makes the players around him better. Can never go wrong picking him.
 

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
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Feb 10, 2010
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I guess by this argument Crosby is just as good a goalscorer and a much superior point producer in the playoffs the same number of seasons. As you said actual accomplishments matter, who cares about context.

Yeah that's obviously dumb since the quantity of playoff games played is about 95% outside the control of the individual player whereas the difference of regular season games played among players with 100% career overlap is entirely due to individual attributes.

It's not an either or thing

Yes it is.

PPG ignores durability. Raw points don't.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,657
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Yeah that's obviously dumb since the quantity of playoff games played is about 95% outside the control of the individual player whereas the difference of regular season games played among players with 100% career overlap is entirely due to individual attributes.



Yes it is.

PPG ignores durability. Raw points don't.
:huh:
you obviously aren;t getting the obvious here.

regular seasons are regular seasons, the career PPG measure actual scoring rate per game but you are pretending they are measuring the same thing or some other mental gymnastics to avoid the obvious here.

Either way the poll is about Crosby versus Jagr and it's pretty clear who the better player was.

Jagr versus Ovechkin would be a lot closer and more interesting.
 

Cursed Lemon

Registered Bruiser
Nov 10, 2011
11,503
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It's kind of funny how Letang's reputation on HF has shifted depending on whether it's a discussion about the support Crosby has had versus a discussion solely about where Letang ranks among other defensemen.

Whenever the discussion of "Crosby had all these HoFers to play with" comes up, Letang's suddenly getting credit for being an elite defenseman. But I remember HF back in the 2010-2017 range whenever there'd be "top 20 defensemen in the NHL" polls at the beginning of every season. Letang was consistently dismissed as a product of racking up points on a PP with Crosby and Malkin and a defensive liability that wasn't even a true #1D because he sucked defensively.

Amazing how Letang's reputation swings so dramatically depending on the discussion. :laugh:

Jiri Slegr doesn't have a single visible Norris vote. Robert Svehla had a better career than him and 99% of hockey fans probably don't even know who he is.
 

authentic

Registered User
Jan 28, 2015
26,321
11,311
Regular Season

1.11 PPG
0.44 GPG

Playoffs

0.97 PPG
0.37 GPG

Those look like worse numbers to me.

Playoffs are a weak spot for him when he is in comparison to guys like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin.

Yes, he has two cups where he was 7th and 4th in playoff scoring on those teams.

In his two playoff runs where Pittsburgh won the Cup he was only behind Lemieux (37) and Stevens (34) with 30 ES points. To be that close to peak Lemieux in even strength scoring in your first two seasons is pretty impressive. Not ranking higher in overall points because you weren’t yet a staple on the powerplay on an all-time great Pittsburgh team at age 18 and 19 isn’t something that should be held against him.
 
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