Jagr vs Crosby

[wetcoast]

Where’s the phantom Rocket coming from though? I’m guessing 2010-2011? The problem there is that he was only a goal ahead of Stamkos in the same number of games.

Not that it really matters but Stamkos only finishes with 45 goals and Corey Perry scored 50 to win the rocket.

I'm pretty sure Crosby could have scored 18 in 41 games having watched his play that season.

After all he was coming off the Richard the year before.

 

[wetcoast]

I think Crosby is one of the best to ever play the game, if we go by career its Crosby, if we go by prime peak, it's always Jagr, there are very few people if any who have been better than prime Jagr.

People dont remember or are too young to have watched prime Jagr, dude was one of the most dominant players ever. Lindros, Bure, Jagr, thats my top3 who of people who can take over a game by themselves, Forsberg too. When you are so f***ing insanely skilled and also inhuman physically there isnt anything the opposition can do.

Yes this is true.

And yes i know Crosby has the biggest ass on the planet, but there were people before him who had even bigger

Man between this and your avatar.....not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This is the most ignorant and unknowing comment ever. You realize Crosby is constantly considered the best two way player in the game, right?

Ha!

I realize people in the Canadian media say it, because millions of homers want to hear it. One of them cited Crosby's penalty killing for why he deserved the Conn Smythe in 2016. Crosby PK'd a whopping 11 seconds per game that year.

Here in real life Crosby's defensive statistics are light years away from the Bergerons and Datsyuks and much much closer to the McDavids and Ovechkins.

 

[AvroArrow]

Ha!

I realize people in the Canadian media say it, because millions of homers want to hear it. One of them cited Crosby's penalty killing for why he deserved the Conn Smythe in 2016. Crosby PK'd a whopping 11 seconds per game that year.

Here in real life Crosby's defensive statistics are light years away from the Bergerons and Datsyuks and much much closer to the McDavids and Ovechkins.

Every single player in the NHL is light years away from Bergeron and Datsyuk defensively lol

 

[Midnight Judges]

Every single player in the NHL is light years away from Bergeron and Datsyuk defensively lol

No, they aren't. There are many other players who do excellent defensive heavy lifting, like Sean Couturier, Kopitar, Barkov, etc.

It's a whole spectrum, and Crosby is nowhere near the top.

 

[Despote]

As individual talents they are very close. Much rather build a team around Crosby though.

 

[wetcoast]

In terms of impact, Crosby for sure. A generational player. I see Jagr as one tier below.

Fair enough but Jagr was really close in terms of being a prospect.

No. 3 cups vs 1, better all around player.

There are good argument but simply SC counting isn't the best

But Ovechkin will go down in history as maybe the greatest goal-scorer (if he overtakes Gretzky).

Ovi doesn't need to pass Gretzky he is already the best goal scorer of all time.

 

[Zbynek]

2 legends

 

[AvroArrow]

No, they aren't. There are many other players who do excellent defensive heavy lifting, like Sean Couturier, Kopitar, Barkov, etc.

It's a whole spectrum, and Crosby is nowhere near the top.

Those guys are good but not even close to either of Bergeron or Datsyuk.

 

[Video Nasty]

Not that it really matters but Stamkos only finishes with 45 goals and Corey Perry scored 50 to win the rocket.

I'm pretty sure Crosby could have scored 18 in 41 games having watched his play that season.

After all he was coming off the Richard the year before.

A Richard he shared with Stamkos, who would score 60 after this season in question.

Anything can happen.

And that’s without bringing the Butterfly Effect into it.

 

[wetcoast]

No, they aren't. There are many other players who do excellent defensive heavy lifting, like Sean Couturier, Kopitar, Barkov, etc.

It's a whole spectrum, and Crosby is nowhere near the top.

This thread is about Crosby and Jagr though and it's not a stretch to say that Crosby was the better 2 way player between the 2.

 

[WalterLundy]

This thread is about Crosby and Jagr though and it's not a stretch to say that Crosby was the better 2 way player between the 2.

All time: Crosby
2 way: Crosby
Offensively: Jagr
Statistical prime and peak: Jagr

That’s how I view it

 

[wetcoast]

A Richard he shared with Stamkos, who would score 60 after this season in question.

Anything can happen.

And that’s without bringing the Butterfly Effect into it.

You are really hung up on a poor take and not backing off of it here.

So what if Crosby plays out the year and wins the Richard or not, he almost certainly would have been top 3 in goals and had an absolutely smashing Art ross and Hart to his resume.

But it didn't happen and we have an absolutely outstanding half season.

We do know what happened to Stamkos despite some imaginary butterflies right?

i think that if we want to play out the rest of the season had Crosby been healthy it would be pretty favorable to Crosby winning the Art ross and Harts by a significant margin and maybe he wins the Rocket maybe eh doesn't who cares.

In the big scheme of things Crosby does alright even with that injury.

 

[Video Nasty]

You are really hung up on a poor take and not backing off of it here.

So what if Crosby plays out the year and wins the Richard or not, he almost certainly would have been top 3 in goals and had an absolutely smashing Art ross and Hart to his resume.

But it didn't happen and we have an absolutely outstanding half season.

We do know what happened to Stamkos despite some imaginary butterflies right?

i think that if we want to play out the rest of the season had Crosby been healthy it would be pretty favorable to Crosby winning the Art ross and Harts by a significant margin and maybe he wins the Rocket maybe eh doesn't who cares.

In the big scheme of things Crosby does alright even with that injury.

Stamkos scoring just 7 goals in his final 30 games of that season is exactly what I’m talking about here. He shared a Rocket with Crosby the year prior, was toe to toe with him before Crosby exited, had 38 in 52, and would pot 60 the very next season. If anyone deserves the benefit of a doubt, it was him and reality still played out quite differently.

I agree about Crosby in the end. He’s had a fantastic career. One of the greatest strengths to his story is that despite talks of early retirement, he might go on to play 1500 games. No one expected that in 2012. It all worked out.

 

[wetcoast]

Stamkos scoring just 7 goals in his final 30 games of that season is exactly what I’m talking about here. He shared a Rocket with Crosby the year prior, was toe to toe with him before Crosby exited, had 38 in 52, and would pot 60 the very next season. If anyone deserves the benefit of a doubt, it was him and reality still played out quite differently.

Man did you even seriously read this before posting it?

If Stamkos needed Crosby to be playing in order to score goals....it's not like Stamkos wasn't motivated by being in the Richard race right?

This butterfly stuff is pure BS.

Face reality here you are doubling then tripling down on what exactly maybe something would have happened differently for Stamkos.

 

[deca guard]

two legends , could never vote either way

 

[Video Nasty]

Man did you even seriously read this before posting it?

If Stamkos needed Crosby to be playing in order to score goals....it's not like Stamkos wasn't motivated by being in the Richard race right?

This butterfly stuff is pure BS.

Face reality here you are doubling then tripling down on what exactly maybe something would have happened differently for Stamkos.

I suggest you re-reread my posts. You quoting me two months later purely to go off the deep end is the only BS I’m seeing.

I don’t suggest studying the theory if my simple posts cause this much confusion.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Those guys are good but not even close to either of Bergeron or Datsyuk.

Yes, they are.

Kopitar in particular is a defensive monster. His playoff defensive stats are actually better than Bergeron's.

Mentioning Crosby's defensive prowess is about like mentioning the face-off capability of a player who rarely takes face-offs.

 

[wetcoast]

I suggest you re-reread my posts. You quoting me two months later purely to go off the deep end is the only BS I’m seeing.

I don’t suggest studying the theory if my simple posts cause this much confusion.

I read your post and you are suggesting that somehow if Crosby hadn't been injured that Stamkos doesn't do what he actually did, stop and think about how ridiculous that sounds.

Here is your post again.

Stamkos scoring just 7 goals in his final 30 games of that season is exactly what I’m talking about here. He shared a Rocket with Crosby the year prior, was toe to toe with him before Crosby exited, had 38 in 52, and would pot 60 the very next season. If anyone deserves the benefit of a doubt, it was him and reality still played out quite differently.

You added this part afterwards and it didn't apply to my response obviously.

I agree about Crosby in the end. He’s had a fantastic career. One of the greatest strengths to his story is that despite talks of early retirement, he might go on to play 1500 games. No one expected that in 2012. It all worked out.

Yes, they are.

Kopitar in particular is a defensive monster. His playoff defensive stats are actually better than Bergeron's.

Mentioning Crosby's defensive prowess is about like mentioning the face-off capability of a player who rarely takes face-offs.

Once again this thread is about Crosby and Jagr no one is arguing that Kopitar isn't better defensively but then again your argument makes no sense.

Crosby isn't some black hole defensively like you imagine and everyone knows your angle here.

 

[Video Nasty]

I read your post and you are suggesting that somehow if Crosby hadn't been injured that Stamkos doesn't do what he actually did, stop and think about how ridiculous that sounds.

Here is your post again.





You added this part afterwards and it didn't apply to my response obviously.

1. I’m saying that the BE alters everything, small things that change events in ways we may not even expect.

2. I’m also saying, fine ignore the BE. I used Stamkos’s play before, during, and after to illustrate that no matter how tempting it is, we can’t just project out expected numbers. This was in response to you feeling confident that Crosby would score the 19 goals needed to win in a static environment. We simply can’t ever know that.

 

[AvroArrow]

Yes, they are.

Kopitar in particular is a defensive monster. His playoff defensive stats are actually better than Bergeron's.

Mentioning Crosby's defensive prowess is about like mentioning the face-off capability of a player who rarely takes face-offs.

Kopitar is great defensively but no he doesn't compare to Datsyuk or Bergeron in that regard. The same way Gretzky/Lemieux/McDavid are in a tier of their own defensively, guys like Datsyuk/Bergeron/Federov are in their own tier defensively.

 

[wetcoast]

1. I’m saying that the BE alters everything, small things that change events in ways we may not even expect.

2. I’m also saying, fine ignore the BE. I used Stamkos’s play before, during, and after to illustrate that no matter how tempting it is, we can’t just project out expected numbers. This was in response to you feeling confident that Crosby would score the 19 goals needed to win in a static environment. We simply can’t ever know that.

There is a reasonable way to project numbers using the butterfly affect to change something that happened in isolation to Crosby getting injured is just ...looking for the technical term here....wacky.

 

[Regal]

There is a reasonable way to project numbers using the butterfly affect to change something that happened in isolation to Crosby getting injured is just ...looking for the technical term here....wacky.

Honestly, using the butterfly effect to suggest anything can happen and we can’t make reasonable projections for what is likely to have happened sounds like listening to someone talking about their healing crystals. Yes complex dynamic systems are unpredictable, and it’s possible Crosby might have completely fallen off like Stamkos. But the likelihood is so minute it’s not worth considering

 

[authentic]

Kopitar is great defensively but no he doesn't compare to Datsyuk or Bergeron in that regard. The same way Gretzky/Lemieux/McDavid are in a tier of their own defensively, guys like Datsyuk/Bergeron/Federov are in their own tier defensively.

Kopitar is definitely right there with them and he’s right that Crosby isn’t even close.

Also McDavid is currently a much better defensive player than Gretzky or Lemieux were.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Having seen nearly the entirety of both of their careers, they rank pretty close to each other. Jagr slightly better offensively, Crosby more well rounded. I take Crosby though, just more dependable game in game out. Both around that #5-9 all time mark.