Jagr vs Crosby

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Sometimes I really wish crosby never had his concussions. The 4 Harts 4 art 4 Lindsay's 3 richards and 2 smythes with 3 cups would be almost impossible to beat

 

[wetcoast]

A bit, yes...I mean obviously this just one message board but the elites on the history board I believe have all three very close.

Even if they are close Crosby is clearly ahead, the matter between Jagr and Ovi might be part of regency bias as Ovi is really underperforming what his supporters would have hoped for this year to say the least.

Even more so given his usage and opportunity.

 

[WalterLundy]

Sometimes I really wish crosby never had his concussions. The 4 Harts 4 art 4 Lindsay's 3 richards and 2 smythes with 3 cups would be almost impossible to beat

Agreed. I think with a trophy case like that people would be more open to ranking him higher than 5 all time. Plus he would have a true full peak season that we could reference to compare to a McDavid or a Jagr offensively. We also have to figure that he missed out on somewhere in the 140-160 range for points during the ‘11-‘13 stretch. We’d be looking at him closing in on 1700 points in real time right now. He’d have a chance to be the second all time scorer in NHL history (depending on how long he’d want to play). With a resume like that at career end who knows how high people would be willing to put him. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and a fantasy what if but really makes you think.

 

[Video Nasty]

Sometimes I really wish crosby never had his concussions. The 4 Harts 4 art 4 Lindsay's 3 richards and 2 smythes with 3 cups would be almost impossible to beat

Where’s the phantom Rocket coming from though? I’m guessing 2010-2011? The problem there is that he was only a goal ahead of Stamkos in the same number of games.

 

[WalterLundy]

Where’s the phantom Rocket coming from though? I’m guessing 2010-2011? The problem there is that he was only a goal ahead of Stamkos in the same number of games.

Just looked at that. Very fair point. It’s all speculative anyway. Who knows if Crosby would be able to sustain the paces at his peak for full seasons

 

[authentic]

Where’s the phantom Rocket coming from though? I’m guessing 2010-2011? The problem there is that he was only a goal ahead of Stamkos in the same number of games.

Maybe not but he likely would’ve had more than 4 Art Ross trophies. 11 and 13 were basically guaranteed and 12 would’ve been close with Malkin. He also led in points per game in 2015 and had .01 less than Ovechkin in 2008 when he had his high ankle sprain then returned for a few games that dropped his pace a bit.

 

[Regal]

Where’s the phantom Rocket coming from though? I’m guessing 2010-2011? The problem there is that he was only a goal ahead of Stamkos in the same number of games.

Stamkos’ goal totals tanking in the second half that year was a bit of an outlier though. While there’s no guarantee Sid wouldn’t have seen a similar fate, it does seem unlikely it would be as bad. He would have needed 19 goals in the final 41 games to beat Perry, which is the pace he’s averaged over his full career so far. It’s not the same situation as the Art Ross that year, where it was highly unlikely he wouldn’t have won had he stayed healthy, but I’d say it was still more likely than not that he would have won the Richard that year.

 

[Video Nasty]

Stamkos’ goal totals tanking in the second half that year was a bit of an outlier though. While there’s no guarantee Sid wouldn’t have seen a similar fate, it does seem unlikely it would be as bad. He would have needed 19 goals in the final 41 games to beat Perry, which is the pace he’s averaged over his full career so far. It’s not the same situation as the Art Ross that year, where it was highly unlikely he wouldn’t have won had he stayed healthy, but I’d say it was still more likely than not that he would have won the Richard that year.

It’s a reach and what no one ever seems willing to concede is that a 2010-2011 season where Crosby plays the entire season alters everything.

The Art Ross is one thing; I can meet people halfway there. But the Rocket?

It’s not as simple as plugging in pretend totals of something that never happened into the final results of a second half of season that didn’t exist without Crosby.

 

[Regal]

It’s a reach and what no one ever seems willing to concede is that a 2010-2011 season where Crosby plays the entire season alters everything.

The Art Ross is one thing; I can meet people halfway there. But the Rocket?

It’s not as simple as plugging in pretend totals of something that never happened into the final results of a second half of season that didn’t exist without Crosby.

That seems a bit nonsensical. If the idea is to have a reasonable projection of what would happen, suggesting that “everything changes” is an easy cop out to downplay potential accomplishments. Things would change to some degree, because of the games he plays in, but it’s not as if Stamkos suddenly doesn’t tank if he does or Perry decides he’ll score more goals in order to win. Calling it a reach is, well, a reach.

 

[Video Nasty]

That seems a bit nonsensical. Things would change to some degree, because of the games he plays in, but it’s not as if Stamkos magically doesn’t tank if he does. Calling it a reach is, well, a reach.

Calling my stance a bit nonsensical and a reach is dismissing the Butterfly Effect. There’s nothing I could say to convince you at this point, because that’s how I approach all these hypotheticals.

 

[Orange Dragon]

Jágr was slightly better offensive player and Crosby's has edge over Jágr in defensive play. However I believe Jágr's contribution to team defense is underrated. Of course he didn't play defense in a classical sense but his unreal puck possession skills kept puck outside of his team defensive zone very effectively. The other team just can't score on you when Jágr has the puck glued to his stick.

Career wise it's hard to argue against Crosby, he won everything he could.

 

[Felidae]

Jágr was slightly better offensive player and Crosby's has edge over Jágr in defensive play. However I believe Jágr's contribution to team defense is underrated. Of course he didn't play defense in a classical sense but his unreal puck possession skills kept puck outside of his team defensive zone very effectively. The other team just can't score on you when Jágr has the puck glued to his stick.

Career wise it's hard to argue against Crosby, he won everything he could.

Crosby is also one of the best puck possession players ever though.

 

[jcs0218]

No coach, general manager, scout, etc., would ever choose Jagr over Crosby.

 

[Orange Dragon]

Crosby is also one of the best puck possession players ever though.

I completely agree. I just think that the possession effect on team defense is often overlooked in player to player comparisons.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

However I believe Jágr's contribution to team defense is underrated. Of course he didn't play defense in a classical sense but his unreal puck possession skills kept puck outside of his team defensive zone very effectively. The other team just can't score on you when Jágr has the puck glued to his stick.

I agree with this, pretty much word for word.

Jagr didn't care about playing defense in the traditional sense. But he was puck possession monster. (Corsi-type data doesn't exist for most of his career, but this is fairly obvious from watching him play, and indirect evidence like the component data that goes into plus/minus supports this). The "big three" forwards from the Dead Puck Era who really drove possession were Jagr, Lindros, and Forsberg.(As you also acknowledged, Crosby is also very good at this).

 

[OKR]

It’s very very close, Crosby is more accomplished and more consistant but Jagr at his best was bit more dominant and imo better.

I voted for Crosby because i think consistency is more valuable, and if i was a GM i would choose Crosby.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

When I think of Penguins, I think Crosby did more for the team. That's also where Jagr spent his prime.

 

[gritdash60]

I think Crosby is one of the best to ever play the game, if we go by career its Crosby, if we go by prime peak, it's always Jagr, there are very few people if any who have been better than prime Jagr.

People dont remember or are too young to have watched prime Jagr, dude was one of the most dominant players ever. Lindros, Bure, Jagr, thats my top3 who of people who can take over a game by themselves, Forsberg too. When you are so f***ing insanely skilled and also inhuman physically there isnt anything the opposition can do.

And yes i know Crosby has the biggest ass on the planet, but there were people before him who had even bigger

 

[tiger_80]

Jagr is better offensively, maybe goal scoring too. Crosby overall.

In terms of impact, Crosby for sure. A generational player. I see Jagr as one tier below.

Ovechkin has more hardware, more MVPs, similar points, more primary points, and nearly 50% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons - all while being a power forward.

Ovechkin > Crosby

No. 3 cups vs 1, better all around player. But Ovechkin will go down in history as maybe the greatest goal-scorer (if he overtakes Gretzky).

 

[93gilmour93]

Both are so elite but it’s Crosby for me. He’s just the complete package of player that’s even more rare than Jagr’s offensive skill was.

87 all day in this poll…..

 

[pi314]

Sometimes I really wish crosby never had his concussions. The 4 Harts 4 art 4 Lindsay's 3 richards and 2 smythes with 3 cups would be almost impossible to beat

And still possibly another cup or two... plus another Smythe.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

And still possibly another cup or two... plus another Smythe.

And the Lombardi trophy

 

[pi314]

And the Lombardi trophy

Plus a visit to the Playboy mansion.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Plus a visit to the Playboy mansion.

Life-long skip the line pass for Cedar Point.

 

[dfc3534]

That would imply Crosby contributes something of significance defensively or on the PK.

He definitely doesn't.

Crosby is deployed for offense. Crosby's wingers have typically done the defensive heavy lifting for him. Crosby is a last guy back/first guy out type of player and he's never shut anyone down.

This is the most ignorant and unknowing comment ever. You realize Crosby is constantly considered the best two way player in the game, right? That is voted on by NHL players so you obviously don't watch Crosby play.