Jagr vs Crosby

[Midnight Judges]

You've repeated this so many times that you seem to think it's fact now.

The fact you can watch a Pens game (I'm assuming you actually DO watch) and think Crosby, by nature of him being the center, doesn't actually do anything in the defensive zone and just stands out at the blueline every shift waiting for a breakout pass, speaks volumes about your understanding of hockey.

I never said Crosby "doesn't actually do anything in the defensive zone." Would you say something that incredibly stupid about Ovechkin?!?

What I said was Sid's defensive responsibilities really aren't any more significant than Ovechkin's - because they aren't. Sid's wingers generally stay back and get back so Sid can attack - and rightly so. This is also the case for Malkin, but it's generally NOT the case for whomever is the Pen's 3C or 4C - be it Bonino, Staal, etc.

Anything else would be dumb. Holding Crosby back to cover defense - which many players can easily match in terms of skill - at the expense of Sid's offense - which very few players can match - would be beyond stupid. -Which is why precisely none of Crosby's coaches have strategized that way.

And yet here you guys are claiming it happens when it very clearly does not.

 

[Miro4Norris]

IMO Crosby is the better franchise player. Jagr was an egotistical butthead at times - something he obviously learned from Mario Lemieux. Most of the time it's impossible to know from the outside if a player's attitude is negatively impacting the team but in Jagr's and Lemieux's case it got so bad that it's undeniable. Imagine trying to GM a team and you've got some talented top tier players, but the two best of them are such big douchebags that your team throws away any chance at winning just to make them happy in the moment. It really is a significant drawback at that point.

Not that it's unheard of in other sports - Shaq and Kobe likely threw away 2 or 3 Lakers championships due to their inability to act like professionals and work together. That makes them less desirable and it does significantly reduce their greatness IMO.

I just can't picture Sidney Crosby ever reaching that level of idiocy. And maybe that's enough to tip the scale back in his favor?

Ironic that if you didn't name those two guys I would be 100% sure you're talking about about Oveckhin and Kuznetsov here

How do you like voting results so far? Everybody else than you and Kuzy wrong again?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ironic that if you didn't name those two guys I would be 100% sure you're talking about about Oveckhin and Kuznetsov here

How do you like voting results so far? Everybody else than you and Kuzy wrong again?

I voted for Crosby. Pretty sure the other guy did too.

Maybe try reading the posts again? Perhaps you could start with the very first sentence that you quoted in your reply.

If there is some ego rift between Ovie and Kuzy, then perhaps you can be the first person to break that story. Or you can continue to make shit up.

Here in real life, Kuzy got busted with cocaine on camera and yeah, there is some friction between him and the organization (not Ovechkin) because he's clearly not giving a 100% best effort to the team in exchange for his $8M salary.

Pinning that on Ovechkin is absurd, and yet typical.

 

[eXile3]

Of course it turns into a Crosby, OV thread.

Jagr carried some pretty garbage line mates late with the Pens. In his prime he was one of the best offensive players I’ve ever seen.

That said his production really isn’t that far off from Sid’s if you factor how many seasons Sid lost. And Sid’s defense over the last couple years has been meh but I don’t think Jagr even knew his team had a goalie. Not to mention the leadership aspect.

I say it’s close but I go with Sid.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Crosby is no different.

Genuinely curious, do you have defensive metrics on hand that would validate this claim?

 

[Miro4Norris]

I voted for Crosby. Pretty sure the other guy did too.

Maybe try reading the posts again? Perhaps you could start with the very first sentence that you quoted in your reply.

If there is some ego rift between Ovie and Kuzy, then perhaps you can be the first person to break that story. Or you can continue to make shit up.

Here in real life, Kuzy got busted with cocaine on camera and yeah, there is some friction between him and the organization (not Ovechkin) because he's clearly not giving a 100% best effort to the team in exchange for his $8M salary.

Pinning that on Ovechkin is absurd, and yet typical.

I'm sorry usually it's just not worth it to read your and Kuzies posts because they're so absurd. Like the part you wrote about Crosby's defense here.

However, Ovi is exactly a player who's costing wins for the team for his individual happiness right now as you wrote about Jagr/Lemieux. Have you seen what that guy has been doing for last years when Caps opponent has an empty net and 6 players on the ice?

 

[frisco]

No disrespect to Jagr but he the ultimate complimentary player

Who led his team in scoring 12 times?

My Best-Carey

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Who led his team in scoring 12 times?

My Best-Carey

Who never made it out of the second round and barely the first?

 

[frisco]

I have Jagr 5th and Crosby 6th. Crosby is gaining and has plenty left in the tank as opposed to Jagr who seems like he might only have 3-4 years left. Seriously, I think Crosby will overtake him but not yet.

Ovechkin is a rich man's Brett Hull. And that's not an insult but he isn't on Crosby or Jagr's level.

My Best-Carey

Who never made it out of the second round and barely the first?

Other than his three Finals and five Semi-Final appearances. You should fire the guy who is feeding you your information.

My Best-Carey

 

[GreatGonzo]

Who never made it out of the second round and barely the first?

Did you see the teams Jagr played for during his peak?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Genuinely curious, do you have defensive metrics on hand that would validate this claim?

Yes:

A look back at Sidney Crosby's defense over the past decade

This is the end of a decade so it's a good time to look back at defensive statistics over that span. Much has been made of points for this decade, but obviously goals against are also important, especially in terms of evaluating if a player has an elite defensive impact. This is a comparison of...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Midnight Judges]

I'm sorry usually it's just not worth it to read your and Kuzies posts because they're so absurd. Like the part you wrote about Crosby's defense here.

You flat out invented something to blame on Ovechkin out of thin air. There is no known public dispute between Ovie and Kuznetsov. Your post was a slander.

However, Ovi is exactly a player who's costing wins for the team for his individual happiness right now as you wrote about Jagr/Lemieux. Have you seen what that guy has been doing for last years when Caps opponent has an empty net and 6 players on the ice?

The Capitals have a .143 points percentage over the past two seasons without Ovechkin. With him it's above .500.

Can you even point to a recent game where the Capitals lost because Ovechkin was on the ice with an empty net? I can't think of one and I watched them all. I can think of a game where the Capitals lost after one of the Caps missed an open empty net that Ovechkin likely hits, but Ovie wasn't on the ice that time.

You are once again inventing things out of thin air.

So fine, you don't like the guy (for some reason) and you're willing to say any baseless thing to slander him.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I'm sorry usually it's just not worth it to read your and Kuzies posts because they're so absurd. Like the part you wrote about Crosby's defense here.

However, Ovi is exactly a player who's costing wins for the team for his individual happiness right now as you wrote about Jagr/Lemieux. Have you seen what that guy has been doing for last years when Caps opponent has an empty net and 6 players on the ice?

I assume you're talking about me. Please show me what's so absurd I've posted in this thread? I said Jagr is a better goal scorer than Crosby, but he is lacking that Smythe worthy playoff run and his attitude in his prime is not what you want from your franchise player. I said Crosby is the better player. Even regarding OV (who I didn't bring up), I said Crosby is the better overall pt producer, better playoff performer, has a better/more consistent prime and I can understand ranking him ahead of OV. I'm not sure how any of that is absurd but ok.

 

[wetcoast]

Do flawed adjusted stats take into account that Jagr played 460 games from the ages of 39-45, while Crosby has played 17 games and counting past the age of 35?

I was going to do the math here at the same age but the bottom line is that their goal scoring rate is actually really close.

Sure adjusted stats aren't perfect but it's better than going with counting stats and no context right?

 

[wetcoast]

The "same number of seasons" is the proper context.

I realize hockey fans are unique in that missing games somehow is often seen as a feather in the cap as opposed to being a negative, but that is a quirk without merit.

Your insistence of using seasons instead of a huge sample of games and rate is quite simply intellectually dishonest at best.

 

[Video Nasty]

I was going to do the math here at the same age but the bottom line is that their goal scoring rate is actually really close.

Sure adjusted stats aren't perfect but it's better than going with counting stats and no context right?

I think they’re mostly rubbish and nothing more than a mere curio to be discarded after even mild scrutiny.

You mention particular context (in Crosby’s favor of course), while ignoring that one of Crosby’s Rockets is a shared win, while the other is certainly in a season of weak goal scoring competition, more so than of Jagr’s perceived weak competition.

Flawed adjusted stats also can’t account for the fact that Jagr was a supporting player in his first two seasons, or first 150 games.

Adjusted stats are broken at their core level, since they were invented to try and explain away the unexplainable, to normalize absurd numbers and scoring wins; Gretzky’s dominance.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I never said Crosby "doesn't actually do anything in the defensive zone." Would you say something that incredibly stupid about Ovechkin?!?

What I said was Sid's defensive responsibilities really aren't any more significant than Ovechkin's - because they aren't. Sid's wingers generally stay back and get back so Sid can attack - and rightly so. This is also the case for Malkin, but it's generally NOT the case for whomever is the Pen's 3C or 4C - be it Bonino, Staal, etc.

Anything else would be dumb. Holding Crosby back to cover defense - which many players can easily match in terms of skill - at the expense of Sid's offense - which very few players can match - would be beyond stupid. -Which is why precisely none of Crosby's coaches have strategized that way.

And yet here you guys are claiming it happens when it very clearly does not.

But that's the issue. The bolded part isn't factually correct. Does it happen on occasion? Sure, primarily on the back check in situations where Crosby's deep in the offensive zone and the puck gets turned over, whichever winger is farthest back will take "center" responsibilities. But in all other situations, including when the opposition is set up in the defensive zone, Crosby is the guy deepest in the zone and helping out the defense around the net.

In comparison, Ovechkin's job as a winger, is to cover the point man/dot area and make sure the late man doesn't jump into the slot. And on occasion, he'll take the "center" responsibility if he happens to be the first forward back after a turn over. But his actual position 90% of the time is covering the right point man near the blueline/top of of the faceoff dot.

So no, no matter how much you keep repeating it, their responsibilities or what they do defensively isn't the same. Just by virtue of their different positions and what those positions require of them, Crosby is involved in the defense more than Ovechkin is and, thus, has a bigger impact on the defensive side of things than Ovechkin (or in this discussion, Jagr) does.

 

[wetcoast]

I think they’re mostly rubbish and nothing more than a mere curio to be discarded after even mild scrutiny.

Maybe less thinking and learn what adjusted stats are trying to do in that they are trying to compare individual scoring rates when league scoring rates differ.

It's much like currencies they don't all hold the same face value.

You mention particular context (in Crosby’s favor of course), while ignoring that one of Crosby’s Rockets is a shared win, while the other is certainly in a season of weak goal scoring competition, more so than of Jagr’s perceived weak competition.

I never referred to regular season finishes but rather adjusted scoring rate and I honestly haven't even looked at the completion that each player had.

Flawed adjusted stats also can’t account for the fact that Jagr was a supporting player in his first two seasons, or first 150 games.

The fact that Crosby hit 100 points in his rookie season then won the Art Ross and Hart in his second season is obviously a plus for Crosby right?

One doesn't need adjusted stats to see that either.

Adjusted stats are broken at their core level, since they were invented to try and explain away the unexplainable, to normalize absurd numbers and scoring wins; Gretzky’s dominance.

You sound like someone who at the core level has no idea what adjusted stats are trying to do.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Jagr was terrific during his 4 year run, but he also got really lucky that he didn't have a peer particularly close to him to contend with him for trophies.

What weird logic is this lol That's like saying Gretzky won scoring titles by such ridiculous margins that it actually proved that the rest of the league was bad at hockey, meaning that Gretzky wasn't actually that good.

 

[Video Nasty]

Maybe less thinking and learn what adjusted stats are trying to do in that they are trying to compare individual scoring rates when league scoring rates differ.

It's much like currencies they don't all hold the same face value.

I never referred to regular season finishes but rather adjusted scoring rate and I honestly haven't even looked at the completion that each player had.

The fact that Crosby hit 100 points in his rookie season then won the Art Ross and Hart in his second season is obviously a plus for Crosby right?

One doesn't need adjusted stats to see that either.

You sound like someone who at the core level has no idea what adjusted stats are trying to do.

I understand the intention of what adjusted stats hope to explain, beyond trying to wrap one’s head around the dominance of Gretzky.

But yeah, they’re pretty faulty and not as heady as you’re trying to make them out to be, when they’re used to minimize Gretzky winning multiple scoring races by 70-80 points and pretend that they’re comparable or worse than lesser seasons from lesser players.

 

[wetcoast]

I understand the intention of what adjusted stats hope to explain, beyond trying to wrap one’s head around the dominance of Gretzky.

But yeah, they’re pretty faulty and not as heady as you’re trying to make them out to be, when they’re used to minimize Gretzky winning multiple scoring races by 70-80 points and pretend that they’re comparable or worse than lesser seasons from lesser players.

Scoring rates from season to season and their differences actually happened and adjusted stats are a hell of alot more useful than counting stats.

I'm also pretty sure that the people over at hockey reference have zero agenda regarding Gretzky.

I respectfully suggest that you focus discussion elsewhere as your angle on adjusted stats is a really bad look.

 

[Felidae]

This debate's been done to death, I remember back then when the polls between the two were actually close, but everytime it's done Crosby just gains more of a lead.

 

[wetcoast]

This debate's been done to death, I remember back then when the polls between the two were actually close, but everytime it's done Crosby just gains more of a lead.

There are only 4 position players in the history of the NHL that have been better and it's becoming more clear as Crosby continues to age very well

 

[authentic]

Hockey reference adjusts every season to 82 games, so adding up their goal totals doesn’t work for per game numbers if you use actual games played. Crosby’s goals are inflated by shortened seasons in ‘13, ‘20, ‘21 and this year all being adjusted to 82 games schedules. That 669 includes 55 goals for this year despite him playing 17 games. If we adjust those seasons to the number of games he actually played, he has 599 goals in those 1207 games or .496 GPG or 41 per 82 games. Jagr would lose 23 goals for the 94-95 season so he’d be at 671 in 1273 or .527 or 43 goals per 82. Not a large difference but Jagr is ahead in adjusted goals as well. And would be further ahead if we used a shorter length of prime (Jagr’s 7 best adjusted seasons average 57 goals per 82 while Crosby’s average 47).

I also disagree with the idea that Jagr faced weak goal scoring competition. I’d argue that Crosby’s Richard win in 16-17 was much weaker competition than anything Jagr faced.

Also Jagr got off to a much slower start in his career so basically he was a clearly better goal scorer in his prime

 

[Video Nasty]

Scoring rates from season to season and their differences actually happened and adjusted stats are a hell of alot more useful than counting stats.

I'm also pretty sure that the people over at hockey reference have zero agenda regarding Gretzky.

I respectfully suggest that you focus discussion elsewhere as your angle on adjusted stats is a really bad look.

The problem here is that you’re thinking my position is only looking at counting stats. I just don’t like HR’s formula. It’s not the end all be all and it’s crazy how much people cling to it, as if it really happened.