Jagr vs Crosby

[hamzarocks]

Both players subsequently anchored championship teams. They certainly weren't washed up or anything.

It was a personality problem that forced the change. If the team had made the choice out of pragmatism - that would be different. But that wasn't it. It was two massive egos that could no longer co-exist and it resulted in Shaq demanding a trade and getting it.

I just can't imagine Sidney Crosby getting pissed that Malkin is on the team or claiming to the press "This is MY team and Evgeny needs to learn how to play this way or that way" -as if constant sniping via the press is going to help anything. Those types of actions are selfish actions without the slightest element of team goals.

Anyway, that's the point I'm making here. Jagr had those types of issues to the point where it was detrimental to his teams. There are lots of top tier players - like Crosby, Ovechkin, Gretzky - who consistently put the team first, and they deserve credit for that.

Shaq wasnt anchoring anything in 06

That was D-wade/NBA possibly rigging that series to get the heat the win. Shaq was irrelevent in the finals and only a good co-star the rest of the 2006 playoffs

Any player can have a narrative made against them before they win

"Ovechkin was also a coach killer before 2018"

"He got Bruce, Hunter fired, forced Semin out etc."

Jagr delievered 2 cups on the Pens with Lemieux. They couldnt win another, it happens.

Jagr being traded had to do with direction of the team and time to rebuild

It wasn't like Dubois for example who gave up on the ice for the Jackets

Jagr was part of the 2013 Bruins cup finals team too if I'm not mistaken, took a lower role and didnt complain there. Almost got his 3rd cup as a good depth player. He played to help his team win and his teams had success

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

One has 2 Rocket trophies while the other has none.

Or do "trophy finishes" matter more now than they did in the Ovechkin/Crosby debates where Crosby finishing 2nd or 3rd in Hart/Art Ross races more mattered less than Ovechkin having a single Hart more?

(For the record I don't even necessarily disagree that Jagr was a better goal scorer. Just seems that "finishes" matters when it's no longer favoring Crosby while suddenly actual trophy counts no longer trump finishes when it does favor him)

One has 1 of his rockets because OV missed 10 games, the other has no rockets because he finished 2nd to Lemieux 1x. But even then the guy with no rockets has more top 3/5/10 finishes. I'm not sure what Crosby vs OV has to do with this, but if you want to get into it I don't have any problem saying Crosby has a better hart record than OV but it's not as clear cut as this Crosby vs Jagr goal scorer debate. Crosby won 2 rockets but then never finished even top 5 again. OV won 3 harts and was a finalist twice more and 10x top 10 (1 more than Crosby). It's not crazy to say 1 more win + 1 more top 10 > 2 more nominations. As far as the ross I've always said that outside of peak OV, Crosby was a better overall pt producer, more consistent and had a better prime. And I say that based on him consistently finishing top 3/5/10. Trophies do matter, but if they were all that mattered OV would be the 2nd best player ever and that's obviously not the case. So yeah, you must have me confused with someone else.

 

[Midnight Judges]

How disingenuous… “same number of seasons” ignores that Ovechkin has 20-some less points (lol @ “similar”) with 170 more games played (i.e. two seasons worth)

That's not disingenuous at all. Durability is a virtue in all professional sports.

"Ovechkin was also a coach killer before 2018"

"He got Bruce, Hunter fired, forced Semin out etc."

You are the first person ever to make any of those claims that I am aware of.

 

[wetcoast]

That would imply Crosby contributes something of significance defensively or on the PK.

He definitely doesn't.

Crosby is deployed for offense. Crosby's wingers have typically done the defensive heavy lifting for him. Crosby is a last guy back/first guy out type of player and he's never shut anyone down.

You are confusing him with #8 dude, man that''s just a really bad take.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby is like 6th at highest and 10th at lowest

Jagr is a bit lower for me. 8th at highest and 15th at lowest

Went crosby, have him at 8th all time, and Jagr 11th

Who is 5th if Crosby can only be as high as 6th?

 

[wetcoast]

One has 2 Rocket trophies while the other has none.

Or do "trophy finishes" matter more now than they did in the Ovechkin/Crosby debates where Crosby finishing 2nd or 3rd in Hart/Art Ross races more mattered less than Ovechkin having a single Hart more?

(For the record I don't even necessarily disagree that Jagr was a better goal scorer. Just seems that "finishes" matters when it's no longer favoring Crosby while suddenly actual trophy counts no longer trump finishes when it does favor him)

It's situational.

 

[surixon]

Ovechkin has more hardware, more MVPs, similar points, more primary points, and nearly 50% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons - all while being a power forward.

Ovechkin > Crosby

You keep bringing this primary point argument without actually applying any context. No shit Ovie has more primary points having played over 2 seasons more worth of games. In terms of rate of production Crosby's primary points per game is superior to Ovies .96 vs. .91.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin has more hardware, more MVPs, similar points, more primary points,

and nearly 50% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons - all while being a power forward.

Ovechkin > Crosby

2 things to note here.

First to the parts in bold, one is getting bigger(Crosby's definitive lead in points) and the other is getting smaller (50% more goals). Also Crosby is 26th all time in goals already.

Secondly, you seem to be posting more on Crosby threads than Ovi ones wonder why that is?

 

[wetcoast]

One has 1 of his rockets because OV missed 10 games, the other has no rockets because he finished 2nd to Lemieux 1x. But even then the guy with no rockets has more top 3/5/10 finishes. I'm not sure what Crosby vs OV has to do with this, but if you want to get into it I don't have any problem saying Crosby has a better hart record than OV but it's not as clear cut as this Crosby vs Jagr goal scorer debate. Crosby won 2 rockets but then never finished even top 5 again. OV won 3 harts and was a finalist twice more and 10x top 10 (1 more than Crosby). It's not crazy to say 1 more win + 1 more top 10 > 2 more nominations. As far as the ross I've always said that outside of peak OV, Crosby was a better overall pt producer, more consistent and had a better prime. And I say that based on him consistently finishing top 3/5/10. Trophies do matter, but if they were all that mattered OV would be the 2nd best player ever and that's obviously not the case. So yeah, you must have me confused with someone else.

The gap between Crosby and Jagr in goal scoring is really quite small actually.

Here is how they stacked up adjusted for goals.

Jagr 841 in 1733 GP.

Crosby 614 in 1207 games coming into this season and he is on a 55 goal pace that will drop no doubt.

The biggest difference between them is that Crosby is the winner, better and elite whole career type of player and better playoff performer.

You keep bringing this primary point argument without actually applying any context. No shit Ovie has more primary points having played over 2 seasons more worth of games. In terms of rate of production Crosby's primary points per game is superior to Ovies .96 vs. .91.

Primary points is also a way to double count goals as all goals are primary.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The gap between Crosby and Jagr in goal scoring is really quite small actually.

Here is how they stacked up adjusted for goals.

Jagr 841 in 1733 GP.

Crosby 614 in 1207 games coming into this season and he is on a 55 goal pace that will drop no doubt.

The biggest difference between them is that Crosby is the winner, better and elite whole career type of player and better playoff performer.


Primary points is also a way to double count goals as all goals are primary.

I think the gap in goal scoring is large, proven by their finishes. 6-2 top 5 and 8-4 top 10 is clear.

I agree that Crosby is the better player and should be ranked ahead. Jagr's lack of a smythe (or at least a Smythe worthy run) and especially him failing to lead a team to even a CF as "the man" really hurt him here. He has to be the only all time top 10 forward who has no Smythe worthy playoff run. And of course, his attitude in his prime doesn't help him either.

 

[wetcoast]

I think the gap in goal scoring is large, proven by their finishes. 6-2 top 5 and 8-4 top 10 is clear.

I know that you think that and seem to be focused on whole seasons but the actual stats show otherwise as I pointed out upthread.

The gap only seems larger when one looks very conveniently in a single way, full seasons, compared to their actual goal scoring rates adjusted.

I agree that Crosby is the better player and should be ranked ahead. Jagr's lack of a smythe (or at least a Smythe worthy run) and especially him failing to lead a team to even a CF as "the man" really hurt him here. He has to be the only all time top 10 forward who has no Smythe worthy playoff run. And of course, his attitude in his prime doesn't help him either.

Agree here.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Both Crosby and Ovechkin > Jagr.

No disrespect to Jagr but he the ultimate complimentary player

 

[Midnight Judges]

You keep bringing this primary point argument without actually applying any context. No shit Ovie has more primary points having played over 2 seasons more worth of games. In terms of rate of production Crosby's primary points per game is superior to Ovies .96 vs. .91.

The "same number of seasons" is the proper context.

I realize hockey fans are unique in that missing games somehow is often seen as a feather in the cap as opposed to being a negative, but that is a quirk without merit.

 

[Aladyyn]

Please help I can't locate the "Ovechkin" option in the poll?

 

[Video Nasty]

The gap between Crosby and Jagr in goal scoring is really quite small actually.

Here is how they stacked up adjusted for goals.

Jagr 841 in 1733 GP.

Crosby 614 in 1207 games coming into this season and he is on a 55 goal pace that will drop no doubt.

The biggest difference between them is that Crosby is the winner, better and elite whole career type of player and better playoff performer.


Primary points is also a way to double count goals as all goals are primary.

Do flawed adjusted stats take into account that Jagr played 460 games from the ages of 39-45, while Crosby has played 17 games and counting past the age of 35?

 

[daver]

What gets lost in these discussions is that Jagr was all offense while Crosby was just as productive while contributing defensively (and for most of his career, was very good defensively). Same with Ovechkin. Same with McDavid.

There is no issue with letting an offensive weapon run loose but there is a risk/reward associated with it. OV won his Cup with a notable effort in his defensive zone.

Jagr was OK in the playoffs, relatively speaking, while Crosby has met expectations.

Both Crosby and Ovechkin > Jagr.

No disrespect to Jagr but he the ultimate complimentary player

Couldn't it be argued that Ovechkin was too?

 

[hamzarocks]

Who is 5th if Crosby can only be as high as 6th?

I have mcdavid 5th

 

[bobholly39]

Top 10 goal finishes

Crosby: 1,1,7,7
Jagr: 2,2,2,2,3,4,6,9

There's no maybe, Jagr was clearly better as a goal scorer.

Crosby has 669 adjusted goals through 1207 career games. Age 36
Jagr had 694 adjusted goals through 1273 career games after 2007-2008 when he left for KHL (age 35)

Crosby's goal-scoring pace is actually ~1 more goal per 82 games adjusted this way.

This is using HF's adjustment method - now I'm the first to admit this method of adjusting isn't without flaws, but usually it's at least good for a general gauge.

I don't think looking at finishes alone is fair. Lots of missing context. Such as:

- Playing winger to Mario Lemieux 100% boosted Jagr's goal totals in some years
- Some years in Jagr's prime competitioon for goal-scoring was quite low.

I think they're a lot closer than most people think as goal-scorers. I'd probably give Jagr the egde, but not by much.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I would take Crosby over Jagr for the same reason I'd take him over McDavid. Jagr/McDavid may have a slight edge offensively, hence their 5 art rosses. But Crosby isn't far behind there (would have 4 himself if not for freak injuries in 2010-11 and 12-13.), and is a much more well rounded player.

 

[surixon]

The "same number of seasons" is the proper context.

I realize hockey fans are unique in that missing games somehow is often seen as a feather in the cap as opposed to being a negative, but that is a quirk without merit.

The point being that your selectively using a stat to make Ovie look better and paint a narrative. And yes Ovie staying healthier is definitely a point in his favor. Never claimed otherwise. Also why is Ovie being brought up in this thread. It wasn't even about him to begin with.

 

[Regal]

Crosby has 669 adjusted goals through 1207 career games. Age 36
Jagr had 694 adjusted goals through 1273 career games after 2007-2008 when he left for KHL (age 35)

Crosby's goal-scoring pace is actually ~1 more goal per 82 games adjusted this way.

This is using HF's adjustment method - now I'm the first to admit this method of adjusting isn't without flaws, but usually it's at least good for a general gauge.

I don't think looking at finishes alone is fair. Lots of missing context. Such as:

- Playing winger to Mario Lemieux 100% boosted Jagr's goal totals in some years
- Some years in Jagr's prime competitioon for goal-scoring was quite low.

I think they're a lot closer than most people think as goal-scorers. I'd probably give Jagr the egde, but not by much.

Hockey reference adjusts every season to 82 games, so adding up their goal totals doesn’t work for per game numbers if you use actual games played. Crosby’s goals are inflated by shortened seasons in ‘13, ‘20, ‘21 and this year all being adjusted to 82 games schedules. That 669 includes 55 goals for this year despite him playing 17 games. If we adjust those seasons to the number of games he actually played, he has 599 goals in those 1207 games or .496 GPG or 41 per 82 games. Jagr would lose 23 goals for the 94-95 season so he’d be at 671 in 1273 or .527 or 43 goals per 82. Not a large difference but Jagr is ahead in adjusted goals as well. And would be further ahead if we used a shorter length of prime (Jagr’s 7 best adjusted seasons average 57 goals per 82 while Crosby’s average 47).

I also disagree with the idea that Jagr faced weak goal scoring competition. I’d argue that Crosby’s Richard win in 16-17 was much weaker competition than anything Jagr faced.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The point being that your selectively using a stat to make Ovie look better and paint a narrative. And yes Ovie staying healthier is definitely a point in his favor. Never claimed otherwise.

Yeah you did because that is precisely what per game stats do as opposed to per season or per career.

In fact ignoring durability is practically the ONLY thing per game regular season stats accomplish between two players with 100% NHL career overlap.

I didn’t bring up Ovie btw.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If there ever was a star forward who was even worse defensively than Ovechkin, it was Jagr.

Guy was allergic to the defensive zone.

Crosby is no different. The main distinction is that Crosby has an entire national media willing to lie for him.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What gets lost in these discussions is that Jagr was all offense while Crosby was just as productive while contributing defensively

Sure, except that’s just plain false and Crosby’s defensive stats for most of his career are nearly identical to Ovechkin’s.

I can’t help but notice this particular lie never comes with supporting data. It is just said, and mindlessly echoed.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Crosby is no different. The main distinction is that Crosby has an entire national media willing to lie for him.

You've repeated this so many times that you seem to think it's fact now.

The fact you can watch a Pens game (I'm assuming you actually DO watch) and think Crosby, by nature of him being the center, doesn't actually do anything in the defensive zone and just stands out at the blueline every shift waiting for a breakout pass, speaks volumes about your understanding of hockey.