Speculation: Jack Eichel thread

[Zman5778]

isnt Buf still refusing to take cap back? that kind of kills the trade for the Avs currently.

Buffalo is more than happy to take cap back.....and Adams knows that he will have to take cap back in order to stay above the cap floor.

What Buffalo isn't willing to do is retain salary on Eichel.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Buffalo is more than happy to take cap back.....and Adams knows that he will have to take cap back in order to stay above the cap floor.

What Buffalo isn't willing to do is retain salary on Eichel.

thanks its been gone over, as i mentioned its been quite awhile since i looked into it. makes plenty of sense not to retain for 5 years.

 

[CupInSIX]

He'll be a Flame within the next 2 weeks. Vegas will interfere (as will the Sharks) to drive up the price, but eventually Calgary will have a nice little McDavid-Eichel rivalry.

 

[Ice Mammoth]

My sympathies are with the Buffalo owners. I would be glad if the whiner was on LTIR for the rest of his career.
I understand that this will not happen. The owners of the team are businessmen. But it's nice to imagine.
A similar situation is described in the book "The Godfather" by Mario Puzo.
This is an excerpt from the book.


“He had asked Hagen one final question. “Does this man have real balls?”

Hagen considered exactly what the Don meant by this question. Over the years he had learned that the Don’s values were so different from those of most people that his words also could have a different meaning. Did Woltz have character? Did he have a strong will? He most certainly did, but that was not what the Don was asking. Did the movie producer have the courage not to be bluffed? Did he have the willingness to suffer heavy financial loss delay on his movies would mean, the scandal of his big star exposed as a user of heroin? Again the answer was yes. But again this was not what the Don meant. Finally Hagen translated the question properly in his mind. Did Jack Woltz have the balls to risk everything, to run the chance of losing all on a matter of principle, on a matter of honor; for revenge?

Hagen smiled. He did it rarely but now he could not resist jesting with the Don. “You’re asking if he is a Sicilian.” The Don nodded his head pleasantly, acknowledging the flattering witticism and its truth. “No,” Hagen said.

That had been all. The Don had pondered the question until the next day. On Wednesday afternoon he had called Hagen to his home and given him his instructions. “


Unfortunately, the owners of the team are not Sicilians.

 

[LeonC]

By rumored accounts Eichel has been shopping around doctors and having difficulty finding any other ones agreeing ADR is the best for Eichel. If Eichel gets hit and his disc dislodges and he becomes paralyzed from the neck down for the rest of his life, is that Sabres doctors being selfish and neglecting to look out for his long term life outlook?

I guess I just don’t understand your major skepticism with the Sabres doctors motives when most other physicians agree with their stance.

I have not seen anything about this rumor, and your comment about being completely paralyzed is just straight out false in relation to extra risk of getting ADR.

I'm getting the exact surgery this winter, I'm not a pro athlete, I'm a brick layer. I had the choice between a fusion or ADR and it was an easy decision to pick ADR. The percentage of 100% recovery is extremely high, while it's a guarantee a fusion will affect my mobility for life.

 

[tsujimoto74]

And to respond to your point, the fact that two doctors disagree is the starting point, not the end. The question is what happens when they disagree under the CBA. Another question is whether the team doctor can defend the standard of care he's advocating for.

And big picture - do you think the league wants a determination on this issue? Do they want to risk a ruling that a team doctor can't consider (or preference) the likelihood of returning to the ice over a player's long term health? What are the implications for that type of ruling in the context of concussions or other procedures?

A lot of people on this board would do disk replacement over fusion. Its pure speculation, but I'm guessing most people would choose replacement over fusion if both were offered (but I could be wrong). In any event, the team is asking Eichel to forego the benefits of disk replacement primarily (if not solely) to maximize Eichel's NHL career and on-ice production. Does that meet the standard of care? To suggest the answer to that question is 100% certain is silly.

Again, ignoring the trash part of your post... The appearance of impropriety that you're pretending exists just isn't there. The spinal specialist for the team isn't actually employed by the team. He has no incentive to do anything other than his ordinary work as a doctor. Sorry your conspiracy theory doesn't have legs (but, you know, not actually).

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

buffalo needs to still be above the floor so salary needs to come back

from Calgary Monahan and zdube/ Mang >$8M
Tuch and Smith from Vegas is around $9.7M
Anaheim Manson/Rakell is around $8M as is Comtois/Henrique

Zero chance Mange is involved and tbh Dube is probably Calgary's replacement at center while Eichel is healing. Its more likely to be this for cap from Calgary:
Monahan and Zadorov > 10.125M

 

[Djp]

indeed, i understand they need to hit the cap floor, however they have said they refuse to take cap back so that is why i said the avs are out currently. i honestly have not been keeping up with the news on him lately as its just hear say it seems but last i looked Adams said no to $ coming back.

the refusal has to do with longer caphits like players with 3+ yrs left.

 

[Djp]

He'll be a Flame within the next 2 weeks. Vegas will interfere (as will the Sharks) to drive up the price, but eventually ——-Calgary——will have a nice little McDavid-Eichel rivalry.

did you mean Alberta?

 

[DeagleJenkins]

the refusal has to do with longer caphits like players with 3+ yrs left.

got it thanks for clarity.

 

[Djp]

I typically ignore the opinions of self announced "attorneys" who laughably claim that there is 100% certainty to the outcome of any litigation/arbitration/dispute - as you did in the prior thread.

The first thing a competent attorney tells their client is that ANYTHING can happen in litigation. But not you - you know for sure what the outcome will be. Really wise attorneys tell their clients that even if they win the case, they may lose on other fronts (public opinion, bad precedents set by the court ruling, animosity with a union, etc.). Winning the battle, but losing the war. The only thing that makes me believe you might actually be an attorney is the arrogance and sanctimony you display in making some pretty strange claims.

To the merits of the bolded quote above, there are lots of other possibilities that "make sense" as at least possible, Somehow despite your self professed legal acumen, these escape you. The first is that the parties may have agreed to extend/toll the applicable deadlines. Happens all the time - particularly when parties don't want to go to Defcon 1 and have a costly and/or embarrassing public dispute (and no doubt the league is wanting this to go away). The other thing that makes some sense - the Sabres doctors may not have rendered a formal recommendation yet, so the 60 day period is not triggered. Another possibility is that Eichel is presenting new medical evidence/opinions that the Sabres doctors likely will reject. If that happpens, arguably it is a new medical "incident" which would (arguably) restart the clock under Section 34.1(c) of the CBA. Eichel has good lawyers that are at least as smart as you - they probably have 5+ other arguments.

I find it odd you're so certain Eichel will lose, yet you have not discussed what is actually being disputed. What are the issues? One issue (not the only) is the standard of care provided by team doctors. Since despite your legal eagle skills you're not able to post the relevant info, I'll help. Here is the standard of care of NHL teams and doctors from Section 34.1(b) of the CBA:

"The primary professional duty of all individual health care professionals, such as team physicians, certified athletic trainers/therapists ("ATs"), physical therapists, chiropractors, dentists and neuropsychologists, shall be to the Player-patient regardless of the fact that he/she or his/her hospital, clinic, or medical group is retained by such Club to diagnose and treat Players . . ."

Now that that's on the table, you can feel free to explain how an NHL doctor is honoring his/her primary allegiance to the player by recommending fusion surgery that benefits the team (over the player's strong objection). Specifically, fusion presents a strong likelihood of life long complications that might be avoided by disk replacement - almost certain downside to the player's quality of life. The only benefit of fusion is the perceived increase likelihood of playing in the NHL. Is that honoring the primary duty to the player patient or is that putting the team's interest ahead of the players? I don't know - and neither do you. But I'm smart enough to admit that and to acknowledge neither side has a 100% chance of winning.

Team physician is an independent medical advisor treating patients, not involved in other stuff or spin.

a team PT is more likely fully employed by the team and is more driven by team policy.

the Sabres doctor is a well respected doctor in the field of spinal injury and surgery. A doctor in LA seeing his medical documentation and documents written is highly likely going to side on his opinion on his findings and recommendation on not doing ADR on a pro athlete because of higher risk of reinjury or worse.

Says the guy who said "you can put that GoogleLaw degree away; I'm an actual lawyer." I appreciate your newly found distaste for ad hominem. Convenient that it comes just as someone challenges you to produce actual legal thinking.

Either show us your lawyer skills and defend your legal position (that Eichel has a 0% chance of winning), or stop playing the lawyer card (which is an obnoxious thing to do in pretty much any situation, by the way, so probably just stop doing that in any event).

And to respond to your point, the fact that two doctors disagree is the starting point, not the end. The question is what happens when they disagree under the CBA. Another question is whether the team doctor can defend the standard of care he's advocating for.

And big picture - do you think the league wants a determination on this issue? Do they want to risk a ruling that a team doctor can't consider (or preference) the likelihood of returning to the ice over a player's long term health? What are the implications for that type of ruling in the context of concussions or other procedures?

A lot of people on this board would do disk replacement over fusion. Its pure speculation, but I'm guessing most people would choose replacement over fusion if both were offered (but I could be wrong). In any event, the team is asking Eichel to forego the benefits of disk replacement primarily (if not solely) to maximize Eichel's NHL career and on-ice production. Does that meet the standard of care? To suggest the answer to that question is 100% certain is silly.

Doctors will not offer or recommend ADR to people who do jobs that produce high levels of stress on the neck and upper back. Thus is more than just pro sports but in heavy lift type of jobs or jobs where you can get hid in head and neck like construction ir fireman.

I have seen no on the record/reputable reporting suggesting that Eichel is likely to be paralyzed if the disk replacement fails in a hockey game or other situation (as opposed to a botched surgery). Perhaps that's true - can you provide some support for that? I don't claim to have read everything, but what I have read suggest if disk replacement fails, it just means means you end up having fusion surgery. That is why I'm skeptical.

Another reason I'm skeptical is because I think is really unusual for a team to dictate potential life changing medical procedures. Maybe the team has the legal right - maybe. And the team doctors are conflicted.

In terms of rumored accounts - I guess we'll see. I don't put much credence in rumors, but that could be true.

having ADR puts Eichel in a higher risk pool for re injury.

the Sabres doctor is a well respected doctor in the field and one of the founders of the ADR procedure.

buffalo has his contract insured. They are also a player in this and follow medical advice. They will say if Eichel has ADR we aren’t covering this contract and no other insurance company will. Thus the issue is on Eichel and the league in if you do ADR and you can’t play again or get reinjured you are on the hook and won’t get paid. Does he want to remove that safety net?

Have the Avalanche been rumored to any extent. They might have the young and current pieces to spare, but the question is weather they would be ready to do that.

There was speculation reported that they called but wanted Eichel retrntion.

 

[MMC]

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Sounds like something new! But really...it's the same old serving of non-news we've heard all summer.

All we know is Calgary and Vegas are interested. Same old news.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

My sympathies are with the Buffalo owners. I would be glad if the whiner was on LTIR for the rest of his career.
I understand that this will not happen. The owners of the team are businessmen. But it's nice to imagine.
A similar situation is described in the book "The Godfather" by Mario Puzo.
This is an excerpt from the book.


“He had asked Hagen one final question. “Does this man have real balls?”

Hagen considered exactly what the Don meant by this question. Over the years he had learned that the Don’s values were so different from those of most people that his words also could have a different meaning. Did Woltz have character? Did he have a strong will? He most certainly did, but that was not what the Don was asking. Did the movie producer have the courage not to be bluffed? Did he have the willingness to suffer heavy financial loss delay on his movies would mean, the scandal of his big star exposed as a user of heroin? Again the answer was yes. But again this was not what the Don meant. Finally Hagen translated the question properly in his mind. Did Jack Woltz have the balls to risk everything, to run the chance of losing all on a matter of principle, on a matter of honor; for revenge?

Hagen smiled. He did it rarely but now he could not resist jesting with the Don. “You’re asking if he is a Sicilian.” The Don nodded his head pleasantly, acknowledging the flattering witticism and its truth. “No,” Hagen said.

That had been all. The Don had pondered the question until the next day. On Wednesday afternoon he had called Hagen to his home and given him his instructions. “


Unfortunately, the owners of the team are not Sicilians.

Umm, so is Jack the horse? Or is he Woltz or the little girl at Woltz’, Johnny Fontaine,or is he Fredo?

 

[MacOfNiagara]

As a Leafs fan, I'm finally coming around on the idea of rolling the dice on a Marner for Eichel trade.

Zero interest

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I found out through a direct hockey connection that he's going to Vegas.

I don't know for what, but I imagine two firsts, a second, Peyton Krebs, Reilly Smith and Jack Dugan.

But they'd also need to trade Dadonov.

 

[Snippit]

I found out through a direct hockey connection that he's going to Vegas.

I don't know for what, but I imagine two firsts, a second, Peyton Krebs, Reilly Smith and Jack Dugan.

But they'd also need to trade Dadonov.

Would this direct hockey connection happen to be the concession stand guy ?

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Would this direct hockey connection happen to be the concession stand guy ?

I have more NHL hockey connections than you think.

 

[Snippit]

I have more NHL hockey connections than you think.

Look forward to the Vegas trade then

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have more NHL hockey connections than you think.

any idea when it will go down?

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

any idea when it will go down?

No, there's probably a bunch of stuff that needs to be organized.

 

[LongWayDown37]

No, there's probably a bunch of stuff that needs to be organized.

This sounds like a man with sources…….

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

No, there's probably a bunch of stuff that needs to be organized.

Organized as in a trade offer to be organized or organized as in “we have to get Krebs an apartment in Buffalo and book a flight”

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Organized as in a trade offer to be organized or organized as in “we have to get Krebs an apartment in Buffalo and book a flight”

More of what's going Buffalo's way, retained contracts, etc. All that stuff.

I don't have all the info, I just know it's pretty much guaranteed at this point.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

More of what's going Buffalo's way, retained contracts, etc. All that stuff.

I don't have all the info, I just know it's pretty much guaranteed at this point.

Cant wait for the 5 min time recapture checking the Eichel thread every day