Player Discussion Jack Campbell

[AM]

It’s all about the wins. And both goalies have managed to perform lately.

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

Some how he’s going to steal the starting job from Skinner down the stretch.

I commend the optimism.
I hope he can turn it around but I doubt the players have the confidence in him to perform well in the playoffs.
Regardless, I think they roll with Skinner but injuries happen so we may need him &, from what I remember, he performed in the playoffs pretty well last year against Tampa.

 

[frag2]

This is just f***ing nonsense. I don't know why you hate Skinner, he's not Russian or anything

He hates Skinner because the boy he's championing is trash. He does that with a lot of players he likes

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

He hates Skinner because the boy he's championing is trash. He does that with a lot of players he likes

He used to do it with all the Russian players.

 

[GMofOilers]

He used to do it with all the Russian players.

All? Yak? He sucked, everyone can admit it now also. It was a fact at the time, just like now.

You associate hate with not playing good and getting called out for it.

Campbell sucks too lately. They just suck equally.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

Why? Skinner has sucked worse the last couple weeks.

Skinner the last 4 starts has been Jack campbell all year. Skinner is given longer leash because he hasn't sucked entire year. But even those last 4 starts, in no way was Campbell better. It's amazing how in denial you are about Campbell and why you want to justify a guy paid 5 mill who has literally been the worst goalie in the league or close to it(quick has an argument as well as merzlikens and kahkonen) over a rookie goalie putting up league average stats is baffling.

And it's baffling if you actually believe this nonsense. Vets are given the benefit of the doubt more than rookies, especially vets being paid big money cuz they want to justify contract. The fact that Campbell has been benched in favor of Skinner despite that is an indictment of how bad he's failed. You would be making every excuse in the world for Skinner performance if it was Campbell in net. You just make yourself look silly at this point because no one can take you seriously.

If you go to the main boards, other teams talk about how bad Campbell is, not how bad Skinner is. All announcers and analysts are writing articles of praise for Skinner and not Campbell. You are literally on an island by yourself against all peers and all paid experts.

 

[Beerfish]

One goalie outright stinks, the other is below average. This team is outscoring the bad tending. That will not happen forever.

Much like the playoffs last year , we got away with it for two rounds but as soon as the offense was stiffled we were out in 4 straight.

 

[GMofOilers]

Skinner the last 4 starts has been Jack campbell all year. Skinner is given longer leash because he hasn't sucked entire year. But even those last 4 starts, in no way was Campbell better. It's amazing how in denial you are about Campbell and why you want to justify a guy paid 5 mill who has literally been the worst goalie in the league or close to it(quick has an argument as well as merzlikens and kahkonen) over a rookie goalie putting up league average stats is baffling.

And it's baffling if you actually believe this nonsense. Vets are given the benefit of the doubt more than rookies, especially vets being paid big money cuz they want to justify contract. The fact that Campbell has been benched in favor of Skinner despite that is an indictment of how bad he's failed. You would be making every excuse in the world for Skinner performance if it was Campbell in net. You just make yourself look silly at this point because no one can take you seriously.

If you go to the main boards, other teams talk about how bad Campbell is, not how bad Skinner is. All announcers and analysts are writing articles of praise for Skinner and not Campbell. You are literally on an island by yourself against all peers and all paid experts.

All year? We won 9 in a row for the Oilers to start off the new year while Skinner couldn’t do anything. So the rest of your post means nothing because it was untruthful to start

One goalie outright stinks, the other is below average. This team is outscoring the bad tending. That will not happen forever.

Much like the playoffs last year , we got away with it for two rounds but as soon as the offense was stiffled we were out in 4 straight.

Yup I agree with this, likely how it goes this year, might not happen to cup finals though.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

All year? We won 9 in a row for the Oilers to start off the new year while Skinner couldn’t do anything. So the rest of your post means nothing because it was untruthful to start

And his play in that stretch was average to below average. The team just scored goals during that stretch.

And you hung your head on wins are all that matters when Campbell won more games then skinner despite skinner having vastly better sv% as argument skinner was playing bad. Now that skinner has gotten wins during his cold stretch with subpar play you don't give credit to skinner for those wins like you would campbell and point out skinner didn't play well while you were completely opposite for Campbell getting wins because of goal support.

You also ignored Campbell was starting in January cuz skinner was gone for birth of kid then skinner was sick.

Campbell has among worst stats in league and lost his starting job. Skinner was literally chosen to be on the allstar team. And this is still the hill you want to die on

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I've never before seen an established veteran goaltender break down in all facets of his game and require a complete rebuild. Mental resiliency, technique, and equipment upgrade. Really has been unparalleled for a big ticket and term free agent goaltender who was targeted to bring stability to a team which buoyed up and down for years with inconsistent play at this critical position.

The veneer of great guy and super positive teammate seemed to hide or bury significant concerns with all three critical areas to thrive within the most challenging, pressure inducing position in the game. The foundation for goaltending success needs to be forged upon rock solid mental strength, resiliency, grit and determination with self-belief to overcome adversity of being the last line of defense in this team game. If this waivers, you're dead in the water playing at the NHL apex level of competition. This has always been the kryptonite within Campbell's journeyman career which inhibited development into the athletic ability that garnered him a first round prospect. It is this mental demon that good guy Jack will have to conquer to live up to the promise and paycheque to give this contender team faith it can win (eventually) with him as a tandem pair with an NHL rookie who's been forced to elevate and carry the responsibilities of a win now organization and fanbase on his moustache and shoulders.

Personally, I doubt the Oilers buy-out Campbell after one worst case imagined season. However if he can't find his game (largely the mental aspect) by mid-season next year, then all of that changes. Regardless, the Oilers management should be heavily scrutinizing its decision making processes and personnel that led them to bet big money and term on this player as the missing piece to bring stability to the goaltending position and skills as the missing piece to move the Oilers into true Stanley Cup contender in this finite open window phase.

The Oil have avoided the iceberg by very fortunately having their rookie tender Skinner overachieve.

 

[fireantz]

Way too much talk about goaltending. Out of 32 teams less than 6 have outstanding goalies. Of the sixteen playoff teams only a few can say their tender will win games on his own. It’s a team game called hockey not goalie. You can win the cup with a save% below 900. Ask Grant Fuhr. It’s time for the team to step up, score first, score often. Cut down the HDSC before the game is 10 minutes old. We are cup contenders if 20 guys step up and play both ends of the rink
Do you think Quick was responsible for last nites loss or was it the 18 slackers in front of him?

 

[GMofOilers]

And his play in that stretch was average to below average. The team just scored goals during that stretch.

And you hung your head on wins are all that matters when Campbell won more games then skinner despite skinner having vastly better sv% as argument skinner was playing bad. Now that skinner has gotten wins during his cold stretch with subpar play you don't give credit to skinner for those wins like you would campbell and point out skinner didn't play well while you were completely opposite for Campbell getting wins because of goal support.

You also ignored Campbell was starting in January cuz skinner was gone for birth of kid then skinner was sick.

Campbell has among worst stats in league and lost his starting job. Skinner was literally chosen to be on the allstar team. And this is still the hill you want to die on

Since Jan 1st
Campbell has 7 out of 16 games above .900
Record 10-2-3
Skinner has 11 out of 22 games above .900
Record is 12-5-4

Skinner has been pulled twice in the span, Campbell once

They both suck, don’t make it sound like Skinner is some superstar.
Skinner has 24 wins and 19 losses that is not a playoff record
Campbell is 19 wins and 13 losses
Without Campbell’s record we aren’t a playoff team.

This team needs to score 4 + goals every game no matter who is in net.

 

[foshizzle]

Just watch Campbell discover his inner Roloson in the playoffs and roll over the ice)) But seriously, this team plays like shit defensively. In a more structured system, Campbell would be better. In the Oilers system the prime Brodeur would be posting under .900 save percentage.

Completely and utterly false. Oilers give up the 4th least amount of high danger chances against in the league. Campbell also gives xGA of like -20. He flat out stinks. These are the same numbers he has been posting since Jan 22- when he was in Toronto. The excuse “it’s bad defense” is complete bullshit

 

[fireantz]

Since Jan 1st
Campbell has 7 out of 16 games above .900
Record 10-2-3
Skinner has 11 out of 22 games above .900
Record is 12-5-4

Skinner has been pulled twice in the span, Campbell once

They both suck, don’t make it sound like Skinner is some superstar.
Skinner has 24 wins and 19 losses that is not a playoff record
Campbell is 19 wins and 13 losses
Without Campbell’s record we aren’t a playoff team.

This team needs to score 4 + goals every game no matter who is in net.

22-7-7 sounds pretty good to me. A little tighter team defence could mean 28 to 30 wins

 

[WATTAGE4451]

Since Jan 1st
Campbell has 7 out of 16 games above .900
Record 10-2-3
Skinner has 11 out of 21 games above .900
Record is 12-5-4

Skinner has been pulled twice in the span, Campbell once

They both suck, don’t make it sound like Skinner is some superstar.
Skinner has 24 wins and 19 losses that is not a playoff record
Campbell is 19 wins and 13 losses
Without Campbell’s record we aren’t a playoff team.

This team needs to score 4 + goals every game no matter who is in net.

You're arbitrary stats are meaningless. You choose January as the line because Skinner had great starts at end I December so you want to cut them out of your sample size and you don't want to use a sample size starting in February cuz you want to capture every single okay start Campbell had. Additionally. You use a bland .900 line like all games above .900 are the same as well as all games below it are same.

Cherry picking the facts and limiting it to a specific variable line doesn't change the total facts.
Not to mention since losing his job campbell other than a couple of games vs rangers and avalanche has faced bottom dweller teams while Skinner has been facing the real teams.

NHL Goalie Statistics

NHL Goalie Analytics, Expected Goals, Expected Rebounds

moneypuck.com

Skinner -2.3 goals saved above expected
Campbell -22.

Skinnernisnt winning any vezinas with his stats, but he's been far better than Campbell and it isn't close.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Way too much talk about goaltending. Out of 32 teams less than 6 have outstanding goalies. Of the sixteen playoff teams only a few can say their tender will win games on his own. It’s a team game called hockey not goalie. You can win the cup with a save% below 900. Ask Grant Fuhr. It’s time for the team to step up, score first, score often. Cut down the HDSC before the game is 10 minutes old. We are cup contenders if 20 guys step up and play both ends of the rink
Do you think Quick was responsible for last nites loss or was it the 18 slackers in front of him?

It's a thread about goaltending and the off-season jewel free agent signing. Pretty fair to critique Campbell's performance challenges in a thread that is specifically about him. I can't recall ever hearing about essentially a 'sabbatical' for an NHL goaltender who's team has had to completely rebuild all aspects of his game during the course of an NHL season ... on a team expecting to compete for long playoff runs. Seems fair that there is discussion about this team's goaltending when the choice to stabilize the position has done anything but.

Grant Fuhr comparisons are completely off-base. He was one of the greatest money goaltenders in the game's history who held the fort when his team continually left him Home Alone like Kevin. Gretzky's choice of Fuhr in net out of any goalie ever to win any single game reinforces the confidence that Fuhr would deliver the W. Can you really believe this team feels that same belief in Campbell?

Pretty sure we all agree that hockey is a team game and that this Oilers team needs to improve and tighten its own zone play. Needing and expecting to score 4+ goals in playoff hockey is not a reliable bet. Like the Dynasty Team that bought in to shutting down teams in those great Cup years it is another skill to hone and develop especially as rookie Skinner looks to be the starter ... because of the veteran free agent's inability to deliver any consistent quality starts in net. Doesn't mean Campbell won't find his game in next year country. But his first season in Edmonton has been the biggest disappointment stories within an overall pretty epic positive one.

 

[GMofOilers]

You're arbitrary stats are meaningless. You choose January as the line because Skinner had great starts at end I December so you want to cut them out of your sample size and you don't want to use a sample size starting in February cuz you want to capture every single okay start Campbell had. Additionally. You use a bland .900 line like all games above .900 are the same as well as all games below it are same.

Cherry picking the facts and limiting it to a specific variable line doesn't change the total facts.
Not to mention since losing his job campbell other than a couple of games vs rangers and avalanche has faced bottom dweller teams while Skinner has been facing the real teams.

NHL Goalie Statistics

NHL Goalie Analytics, Expected Goals, Expected Rebounds

moneypuck.com

Skinner -2.3 goals saved above expected
Campbell -22.

Skinnernisnt winning any vezinas with his stats, but he's been far better than Campbell and it isn't close.

Since beginning of season
21 out of 45 games below .900 47% of games Skinner

19 out of 34 games below .900 55% of games Campbell

Those numbers are so close to 50% that you can say for every good game they have a shit game. Or every 2 or 3 good games they have 2 or 3 bad games. It’s a coin flip for both goalies.

Both these goalies will be getting playoff games because neither can be relied on for any stretch of games.

 

[CaptainCaveman]

...
They both suck, don’t make it sound like Skinner is some superstar.
...

Your stats are missing some context: one is a rookie on a reasonable contract, the other is an established veteran who's contract is looking worse every game he plays. I have a lot more patience for Skinner than I do for Campbell right now.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

Since beginning of season
21 out of 45 games below .900 47% of games Skinner

19 out of 34 games below .900 55% of games Campbell

Those numbers are so close to 50% that you can say for every good game they have a shit game. Or every 2 or 3 good games they have 2 or 3 bad games. It’s a coin flip for both goalies.

Both these goalies will be getting playoff games because neither can be relied on for any stretch of games.

1. 8 % is significant difference.
2. Again? Why are we just qualifying all games as below or above .900. There is a significant difference in quality between a .895 games with 3 goals and a 4+ game with below .880. There's a significant different in 3 goals on 30 shots for .900 and 1 goal on 30 shots for .967%

Reducing things to a stupid median line is indicative of performance. If you reduce everything to games above .900 and below, you could probably find a lot of goalies with close to those percentages. You are trying to reduce every game into basically a yes no answer with 2 categories to drag everyone back to a median.

Campbell was signed to be the starter. The team didnt turn to skinner because they wanted to favor the rookienthey didn't commit money to and bench their investment. They turned to skinner cuz Campbell has failed. And Campbell has been having his starts cherry picked when possible to give him more starts vs easy teams the last 2 months.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You're arbitrary stats are meaningless. You choose January as the line because Skinner had great starts at end I December so you want to cut them out of your sample size and you don't want to use a sample size starting in February cuz you want to capture every single okay start Campbell had. Additionally. You use a bland .900 line like all games above .900 are the same as well as all games below it are same.

Cherry picking the facts and limiting it to a specific variable line doesn't change the total facts.
Not to mention since losing his job campbell other than a couple of games vs rangers and avalanche has faced bottom dweller teams while Skinner has been facing the real teams.

NHL Goalie Statistics

NHL Goalie Analytics, Expected Goals, Expected Rebounds

moneypuck.com

Skinner -2.3 goals saved above expected
Campbell -22.

Skinnernisnt winning any vezinas with his stats, but he's been far better than Campbell and it isn't close.

Agree or disagree I appreciate any poster that will make a post like that and flesh out some detail. Nobody has to do that, but its fine by me when posters make the effort to share their take. I thought thats what discussion is about.

Its interesting that you blow it off completely when Recency stats tend to be important in goaltending. Goalies fluctuate. Good times bad times. But goalie stats too skew wildly when a given goalie has a really bad segment like Campbell did. So that too provides distortion when just looking at that. breaking it down provides different information and context on what a given goalie has done lately or in recent months.

Particularly for goalies the hot and cold is significant. It often is. For most teams that don't have a legit superstar in the stable its about picking the goalie, or even combo, that might afford the better chance.

Plus in the same post you cherry picked. Which is kind of funny in context.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

Agree or disagree I appreciate any poster that will make a post like that and flesh out some detail. Nobody has to do that, but its fine by me when posters make the effort to share their take. I thought thats what discussion is about.

Its interesting that you blow it off completely when Recency stats tend to be important in goaltending. Goalies fluctuate. Good times bad times. But goalie stats too skew wildly when a given goalie has a really bad segment like Campbell did. So that too provides distortion when just looking at that. breaking it down provides different information and context on what a given goalie has done lately or in recent months.

Particularly for goalies the hot and cold is significant. It often is. For most teams that don't have a legit superstar in the stable its about picking the goalie, or even combo, that might afford the better chance.

Plus in the same post you cherry picked. Which is kind of funny in context.

I didn't cherry pick I picked whole season totals.
If I wanted to cherry pick I could choose sample size after Campbell's first start in Feb which was actually good to just use bad Campbell performances in a sample size rather than use a whole season.

And it's one thing to say skinner isn't great either or you want to see if Campbell can get hot again. I wouldn't scrutinize his take so much if it weren't for this poster earlier in January championing every Campbell win with mediocre performance and then goes on to try and bash skinner every single start. He tried to argue Campbell far outplayed skinner despite the stats until Campbell got so cold he just now resorted to arguing skinner just as bad instead or trying to champion Campbell. He clearly has previously shown an agenda.

If we did recency, Campbell has 7 straight games with 4 + goals. Skinner also recently has had 4 subpar games in a row to be fair but still has far better stats over his past 7. Skinner has been hot and cold the whole season. Campbell has been cold to mediocre to back to cold. He hasn't even really had a hot stretch.

Campbell can turn things around next year. Clearly there's a confidence issue as he's been documented to have mental issues with pressure on himself. But this year he's been bad.

 

[Drivesaitl]

^I bolded the part I thought was cherry picked. That said thank you for the very reasonable reply. I appreciate that. (somehow the board didn't quote your post, sorry)

My view,often expressed, is that its the goalie coaching that is impacting and adversely impacting both our goalies.

I've said exactly why. The goalies are being instructed here to be primary block goalies rather than reaction goalies. The problem for Campbell here is he's a reaction style goalie and so he has most adaptation and frankly I don't think he should be doing it. Campbell didn't get to the NHL being a block, flop down goalie. He should have a goalie coach that most utilizes and supports what he is.

Skinner is more of a block goalie so less impacted.

But Campbell really needs to grab some balls and start saying what he needs. Its Schwartz imo thats the issue. Far from the first time we've seen it. Schwartz has built a considerable goalie graveyard here.

 

[GMofOilers]

I didn't cherry pick I picked whole season totals.
If I wanted to cherry pick I could choose sample size after Campbell's first start in Feb which was actually good to just use bad Campbell performances in a sample size rather than use a whole season.

And it's one thing to say skinner isn't great either or you want to see if Campbell can get hot again. I wouldn't scrutinize his take so much if it weren't for this poster earlier in January championing every Campbell win with mediocre performance and then goes on to try and bash skinner every single start. He tried to argue Campbell far outplayed skinner despite the stats until Campbell got so cold he just now resorted to arguing skinner just as bad instead or trying to champion Campbell. He clearly has previously shown an agenda.

If we did recency, Campbell has 7 straight games with 4 + goals. Skinner also recently has had 4 subpar games in a row to be fair but still has far better stats over his past 7. Skinner has been hot and cold the whole season. Campbell has been cold to mediocre to back to cold. He hasn't even really had a hot stretch.

Campbell can turn things around next year. Clearly there's a confidence issue as he's been documented to have mental issues with pressure on himself. But this year he's been bad.

At the time everyone was shitting on Campbell like they still are even though he won 9 in a row. I pointed out the fact he was getting wins. Skinner was taking losses. That’s all. Also at the time Skinner has a below 500 record. Those are facts.

 

[Stoneman89]

Way too much talk about goaltending. Out of 32 teams less than 6 have outstanding goalies. Of the sixteen playoff teams only a few can say their tender will win games on his own. It’s a team game called hockey not goalie. You can win the cup with a save% below 900. Ask Grant Fuhr. It’s time for the team to step up, score first, score often. Cut down the HDSC before the game is 10 minutes old. We are cup contenders if 20 guys step up and play both ends of the rink
Do you think Quick was responsible for last nites loss or was it the 18 slackers in front of him?

We need to be like the Hawks with their first cup, or the Avs last year, both with average goaltending, but played the game well enough to win. Big difference though is the Hawks had Seabrook, Keith and Hjalmarrson on their backend, and the Avs had (have) Makar and Toews and a solid supporting cast.

 

[Mack a doodle doo]

Way too much talk about goaltending. Out of 32 teams less than 6 have outstanding goalies. Of the sixteen playoff teams only a few can say their tender will win games on his own. It’s a team game called hockey not goalie. You can win the cup with a save% below 900. Ask Grant Fuhr. It’s time for the team to step up, score first, score often. Cut down the HDSC before the game is 10 minutes old. We are cup contenders if 20 guys step up and play both ends of the rink
Do you think Quick was responsible for last nites loss or was it the 18 slackers in front of him?

no one is saying we need an outstanding goaltender.