Player Discussion Jack Campbell

[barry halls]

So far he’s somewhere below Garon and Scrivens on my list of all-time Oilers goalies.

What some people don’t understand is that he cannot be expected to “bounce back” to any high level, because he has never, ever, played at a high level for any significant stretch (ie a full season of 40+ games). Furthermore, he’s beyond the age where you could reasonably expect a career backup/journeyman to suddenly blossom into a starter. All told this is just as bad as the Lucic signing.

 

[K1984]

At the time everyone was shitting on Campbell like they still are even though he won 9 in a row. I pointed out the fact he was getting wins. Skinner was taking losses. That’s all. Also at the time Skinner has a below 500 record. Those are facts.

Literally nobody was shitting on Campbell for the one fleeting moment in time he looked like an actual NHL goalie here for a few weeks.

I'm one of Campbell's loudest critics and I'm not sure that I wouldn't have actually started him over Skinner if the playoffs started at that exact moment. Then he let in a single bad goal against in Ottawa and the bottom completely fell out again. Now he's back to non-NHL level goaltending.

 

[K1984]

So far he’s somewhere below Garon and Scrivens on my list of all-time Oilers goalies.

What some people don’t understand is that he cannot be expected to “bounce back” to any high level, because he has never, ever, played at a high level for any significant stretch (ie a full season of 40+ games). Furthermore, he’s beyond the age where you could reasonably expect a career backup/journeyman to suddenly blossom into a starter. All told this is just as bad as the Lucic signing.

I don't think he'll ever bounce back because I don't think he has the mental capacity to.

One of the most telling things about his mental game is exactly what caused the most recent implosion after it had appeared he got everything together in that 9 game stretch. He played pretty much consistently good enough for weeks right up until this goal went in (4:49 mark of the video):



You can pretty much draw a line directly between "good enough to even good" Campbell and "is this an imposter that won an NHL fantasy camp contest?" Campbell. Every single game from this moment forward has been dog shit. The signs he was starting to show that he was recovering as a good goalie (positioning, glove, rebounds, etc)? All completely vanished. Every building block gone because of this one goal.

This is why I'm certain he'll never be in the conversation to actually perform at an NHL starter level. I've never seen it before where a player in any position can be doing good things and build their game up over weeks only to have the bottom fall out because of one single mistake. He's just incredibly damaged mentally.

 

[McTonyBrar]

I don't think he'll ever bounce back because I don't think he has the mental capacity to.

One of the most telling things about his mental game is exactly what caused the most recent implosion after it had appeared he got everything together in that 9 game stretch. He played pretty much consistently good enough for weeks right up until this goal went in (4:49 mark of the video):



You can pretty much draw a line directly between "good enough to even good" Campbell and "is this an imposter that won an NHL fantasy camp contest?" Campbell. Every single game from this moment forward has been dog shit. The signs he was starting to show that he was recovering as a good goalie (positioning, glove, rebounds, etc)? All completely vanished. Every building block gone because of this one goal.

This is why I'm certain he'll never be in the conversation to actually perform at an NHL starter level. I've never seen it before where a player in any position can be doing good things and build their game up over weeks only to have the bottom fall out because of one single mistake. He's just incredibly damaged mentally.

That goal at 4:55.....

 

[K1984]

That goal at 4:55.....

Sorry I made you watch the entirety of the 6 seconds of the sequence leading up to the goal. Must have been a burden.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Sorry I made you watch the entirety of the 6 seconds of the sequence leading up to the goal. Must have been a burden.

Yeah no I wasn't talking about you.. I meant how awful the goal was.

 

[K1984]

Yeah no I wasn't talking about you.. I meant how awful the goal was.

Ooooh haha sorry I thought you were scolding me for referencing the goal occurring at 4:49.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Ooooh haha sorry I thought you were scolding me for referencing the goal occurring at 4:49.

Nope! Lol

 

[SwedishFire]

The sad thing is that he is a goof human being, but with that play, and cap trouble coming up, the best move is the get rid of that contract.
But would any team even touch him? The play he has shown is like junior hockey goaltending.

If Oilers could trade him 40% retained for another bad but lesder comtract its considered a win.

Is there a overpriced but still good RD to get?

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

*good

 

[alanschu]

I don't think I can agree that Skinner has been equally bad.

Campbell in his last 10 games is .871. 40 GA in 580 minutes. 5-1-3.
Skinner is .893 with 32 GA in 600 minutes. 8-1-1.

Campbell is missing a loss in those last 10 against Columbus because Oilers went off like gangbusters and scored enough for Skinner to get the loss (it was more than 10 games ago so it isn't Skinner's loss in his last 10).

I think it's pretty clear that Skinner is playing better. He's not playing fantastic and it's a big concern. I say that as someone that is probably among the more sympathetic towards Campbell's challenges and hope he can see improvement in his game going into next season.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

 

[bucks_oil]

This provides great insight for those of us have little knowledge of experience with goaltending.

With that being said, is this not something the goalie coach would directly address with him!?

Yeah, I'm sure the goalie coach would, but "save selection" ...which is essentially what this boils down to... is fully "heat of the moment" and much of it is instinct and judgement.

I mean given the situation of a wide open cage, with the puck coming to a shooter, you've got a split second to determine how quickly that shot is coming off vs how long it'll take you to get there. It's all about timing and there are three outcomes:
1) Push too slow and the shooter zips it past your toe before you get there.
2) Push to hard (& using a full forward sprawl) like Campbell has been and you end up covering the low ground so the shooter goes high and or shoots back against your direction... often your lead leg
"was there/had it covered", but was there too early and your leg keeps sliding and the puck finds 5 hole.
3) "Just right" is all a matter of context and how well you judged the speed of the pass and your own ability to cover the distance.

And there is merit to both 1 and 2 obviously... the reason why you'd get caught doing (1) is that you wanted to be more square to the puck and also be able to react to shots to the far side. The reason why you get caught doing (2) is you thought the guy would one time it and there was no time for you to spare.

Lots of golfers out there, but these mistakes are like the golfing equivalent of trying to swing too hard. Calibration is a mental game.

Not excusing the goalie coach, but 90% of what they can do is just to correctly point it out... Campbell's gotta be the one to adjust and make those split-second decisions in real time.

 

[guymez]

There we have it. Confirmation that Skinner is NOT the problem.
Thats pretty much what I am seeing when I watch the games.

Thanks for posting that Jimmi.

Also just wanted to highlight once again...Skinner is a 24 year old rookie trending up.
Campbell is a 31 year old question mark.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

The biggest question I've had with Campbell is "Why did he have such a shit regular season?".

The Toronto teams he played on had arguably the same defensive deficiencies as the Oilers but he was nowhere near this awful with them. In my opinion he was good more often than bad, but it was vice-versa his first season with Edmonton. Even though he had a few good showings in relief, Woodcroft still didn't give him a shot to start a game in the playoffs so how is that going to affect his psyche for this season?

It's not any one thing but it had to have been a combination of several things. Was it the structure/style of defensive play he had trouble adapting to? Too much internal/mental pressure on himself to earn that $5 million paycheque? Trouble adjusting/breaking in new pads and gear? Schwartz and his record of ruining goalies' glove hands? It's been a steady diet of goals scored high glove, high glove, high glove on Talbot, Koskinen, Campbell and at times, Smith & Skinner.

No one is taking on that contract in its infancy stages, which is where it's at unless Holland takes a bath and retains 50% and attaches high picks to it. But GMs also know Campbell comes with confidence issues so I believe the Oilers are stuck with it until year 4 at least. Hopefully Katz set him up with a sports psychologist over the offseason jto help him bust through that mental block he walls himself into and seeks goalie development help over the summer from someone not named Dustin Schwartz.

I'm optimistic about him and believe he can turn it around. In order to prevent burnout from both goalies though, I'd run him and Skinner nearly 50/50 (3 on, 3 off kind of thing) unless one is on a hot streak both winning and reduced goals against wise or as we saw, one is really struggling to keep pucks out of the net but even then, I'd cap it to 5 starts in a row. It would be an absolute clusterf*** of a debacle if the Oilers wound up having nearly a decade of $9+ million dollars in cap holding a clipboard 80% of the time.

 

[brentashton]

The biggest question I've had with Campbell is "Why did he have such a shit regular season?".

The Toronto teams he played on had arguably the same defensive deficiencies as the Oilers but he was nowhere near this awful with them. In my opinion he was good more often than bad, but it was vice-versa his first season with Edmonton. Even though he had a few good showings in relief, Woodcroft still didn't give him a shot to start a game in the playoffs so how is that going to affect his psyche for this season?

It's not any one thing but it had to have been a combination of several things. Was it the structure/style of defensive play he had trouble adapting to? Too much internal/mental pressure on himself to earn that $5 million paycheque? Trouble adjusting/breaking in new pads and gear? Schwartz and his record of ruining goalies' glove hands? It's been a steady diet of goals scored high glove, high glove, high glove on Talbot, Koskinen, Campbell and at times, Smith & Skinner.

No one is taking on that contract in its infancy stages, which is where it's at unless Holland takes a bath and retains 50% and attaches high picks to it. But GMs also know Campbell comes with confidence issues so I believe the Oilers are stuck with it until year 4 at least. Hopefully Katz set him up with a sports psychologist over the offseason jto help him bust through that mental block he walls himself into and seeks goalie development help over the summer from someone not named Dustin Schwartz.

I'm optimistic about him and believe he can turn it around. In order to prevent burnout from both goalies though, I'd run him and Skinner nearly 50/50 (3 on, 3 off kind of thing) unless one is on a hot streak both winning and reduced goals against wise or as we saw, one is really struggling to keep pucks out of the net but even then, I'd cap it to 5 starts in a row. It would be an absolute clusterf*** of a debacle if the Oilers wound up having nearly a decade of $9+ million dollars in cap holding a clipboard 80% of the time.

Very good post.

I like the full platoon concept for him and Skinner and the guard rails you have outlined.

Skinner is still developing as evidenced by his fatigue etc., late in the playoffs and they MUST get Campbell going.

He has shown he is capable. They need to ride this duo this way for the better part of the season.

He’s not being bought out, his contract would cost dearly to trade away at this point and no other tender is available that is guaranteed to be any better, except for that guy in Winnipeg and that’s not happening for a variety of real reasons.

I like this. I hope Woodshaft can be convinced. He has demonstrated a weakness to play favorites in his time behind the bench.

 

[tiger_80]

So far he’s somewhere below Garon and Scrivens on my list of all-time Oilers goalies.

What some people don’t understand is that he cannot be expected to “bounce back” to any high level, because he has never, ever, played at a high level for any significant stretch (ie a full season of 40+ games). Furthermore, he’s beyond the age where you could reasonably expect a career backup/journeyman to suddenly blossom into a starter. All told this is just as bad as the Lucic signing.

Ben Screwins was probably better...for a couple of games))

 

[guymez]

I don't think he'll ever bounce back because I don't think he has the mental capacity to.

One of the most telling things about his mental game is exactly what caused the most recent implosion after it had appeared he got everything together in that 9 game stretch. He played pretty much consistently good enough for weeks right up until this goal went in (4:49 mark of the video):



You can pretty much draw a line directly between "good enough to even good" Campbell and "is this an imposter that won an NHL fantasy camp contest?" Campbell. Every single game from this moment forward has been dog shit. The signs he was starting to show that he was recovering as a good goalie (positioning, glove, rebounds, etc)? All completely vanished. Every building block gone because of this one goal.

This is why I'm certain he'll never be in the conversation to actually perform at an NHL starter level. I've never seen it before where a player in any position can be doing good things and build their game up over weeks only to have the bottom fall out because of one single mistake. He's just incredibly damaged mentally.

I agree with this although I wouldnt describe it as being "damaged mentally". Semantics really but the way I would describe Campbell is that he lacks the mental strength to be a starter.
Thats not to say that he cant at least be a solid tandem goalie. Different level of pressure and expectation.

The part that I cant get my head around is what was it in Campbells playing history that suggested to Holland that he was worth that contract?
There is just nothing there to suggest that this is the goalie you take a chance on.

 

[Mr Positive]

I agree with this although I wouldnt describe it as being "damaged mentally". Semantics really but the way I would describe Campbell is that he lacks the mental strength to be a starter.
Thats not to say that he cant at least be a solid tandem goalie. Different level of pressure and expectation.

The part that I cant get my head around is what was it in Campbells playing history that suggested to Holland that he was worth that contract?
There is just nothing there to suggest that this is the goalie you take a chance on.

What bugged me was the term. It seemed like Holland wanted to outsmart the league and have a 8 million aav guy signed up for 5.

In reality we should avoid giving term to anyone who has no experience with our group of players. Even if Campbell were better on the Leafs, that's no certainty that he would be just as good with our mix of players.

We are a team that players want to go to and we should act like it. Tell Campbell he needs to give us a year or two of play and then he can have his big money.

I though Dubas played that whole thing better. Bring in a couple of great options but make sure they don't have term. Walk from whoever doesn't work. We can make fun of him for Murray but at least Murray only has 1 year left.

5 years for Campbell was a dumb gamble even without hindsight

 

[guymez]

What bugged me was the term. It seemed like Holland wanted to outsmart the league and have a 8 million aav guy signed up for 5.

In reality we should avoid giving term to anyone who has no experience with our group of players. Even if Campbell were better on the Leafs, that's no certainty that he would be just as good with our mix of players.

We are a team that players want to go to and we should act like it. Tell Campbell he needs to give us a year or two of play and then he can have his big money.

I though Dubas played that whole thing better. Bring in a couple of great options but make sure they don't have term. Walk from whoever doesn't work. We can make fun of him for Murray but at least Murray only has 1 year left.

5 years for Campbell was a dumb gamble even without hindsight

I agree....especially about Dubas.

I honestly didnt realize how mentally fragile Campbell was until he became an Oiler. Makes we wonder about the level of pro scouting that they would give a thumbs up to Holland to target Campbell.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I agree....especially about Dubas.

I honestly didnt realize how mentally fragile Campbell was until he became an Oiler. Makes we wonder about the level of pro scouting that they would give a thumbs up to Holland to target Campbell.

It was well known league wide and Hyman and Barrie or Ceci would've been in the room with him at some point. He is very hard on himself. I suspect that he put too much pressure on himself and then with a different defensive system and goalie coach all hell broke loose. Expectations will be a lot lower on him this season and he should be settled into Edmonton by now. Hoping for a big bounce back season from him.

 

[guymez]

It was well known league wide and Hyman and Barrie or Ceci would've been in the room with him at some point. He is very hard on himself. I suspect that he put too much pressure on himself and then with a different defensive system and goalie coach all hell broke loose. Expectations will be a lot lower on him this season and he should be settled into Edmonton by now. Hoping for a big bounce back season from him.

I hear you.
Some players though just do not have the tools to deal with all the pressures that come with being an NHL starter.
Mental toughness is a hallmark quality for an NHL starting goalie.
I have seen little to no evidence that mental toughness is a quality that Campbell possesses.
Being overly hard on yourself is a sign that Campbell isnt mentally strong enough. Being hard on yourself does nothing but add to the strain and pressure. It undermines success.
Mentally tough people are resilient and know to let things go.
They are not their own worst enemy like Campbell is. I found some of his post game interviews (where he beat himself up) completely cringe worthy.

I think that we need to lower our expectations of this player.
If he can become a solid tandem goalie then (despite the overpay) I would be fine with that.

 

[La Bamba]

5 years for Campbell was a dumb gamble even without hindsight

it was so bad. Holland did a great job using Smith as a bridge for 3 years. We got fantastic value for Smith at 1.5M, 2M, and then 2.5M cap hits. Smith and Skinner splitting the games last year and Smith retiring this summer instead would've been a great transition. Holland for whatever reason thought Campbell was the guy (like Markstrom). Campbell plays like Tim Thomas except he doesn't actually make the save 50% of the time

speaking of Markstrom, I wonder if Calgary wants to swap goalies again lol. Neal for Lucic 2.0 goalie edition

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I hear you.
Some players though just do not have the tools to deal with all the pressures that come with being an NHL starter.
Mental toughness is a hallmark quality for an NHL starting goalie.
I have seen little to no evidence that mental toughness is a quality that Campbell possesses.
Being overly hard on yourself is a sign that Campbell isnt mentally strong enough. Being hard on yourself does nothing but add to the strain and pressure. It undermines success.
Mentally tough people are resilient and know to let things go.
They are not their own worst enemy like Campbell is. I found some of his post game interviews (where he beat himself up) completely cringe worthy.

I think that we need to lower our expectations of this player.
If he can become a solid tandem goalie then (despite the overpay) I would be fine with that.

A serviceable NHL goalie would be a win at this point. If he becomes a 1A that would be great assuming that it's because of his own success vs. Skinner potentially struggling.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The biggest question I've had with Campbell is "Why did he have such a shit regular season?".

The Toronto teams he played on had arguably the same defensive deficiencies as the Oilers but he was nowhere near this awful with them. In my opinion he was good more often than bad, but it was vice-versa his first season with Edmonton. Even though he had a few good showings in relief, Woodcroft still didn't give him a shot to start a game in the playoffs so how is that going to affect his psyche for this season?

It's not any one thing but it had to have been a combination of several things. Was it the structure/style of defensive play he had trouble adapting to? Too much internal/mental pressure on himself to earn that $5 million paycheque? Trouble adjusting/breaking in new pads and gear? Schwartz and his record of ruining goalies' glove hands? It's been a steady diet of goals scored high glove, high glove, high glove on Talbot, Koskinen, Campbell and at times, Smith & Skinner.

No one is taking on that contract in its infancy stages, which is where it's at unless Holland takes a bath and retains 50% and attaches high picks to it. But GMs also know Campbell comes with confidence issues so I believe the Oilers are stuck with it until year 4 at least. Hopefully Katz set him up with a sports psychologist over the offseason jto help him bust through that mental block he walls himself into and seeks goalie development help over the summer from someone not named Dustin Schwartz.

I'm optimistic about him and believe he can turn it around. In order to prevent burnout from both goalies though, I'd run him and Skinner nearly 50/50 (3 on, 3 off kind of thing) unless one is on a hot streak both winning and reduced goals against wise or as we saw, one is really struggling to keep pucks out of the net but even then, I'd cap it to 5 starts in a row. It would be an absolute clusterf*** of a debacle if the Oilers wound up having nearly a decade of $9+ million dollars in cap holding a clipboard 80% of the time.

1)Dustin Schwartz

2)Schemes the team is using that Marchessault outlined that Vegas were able to exploit. He was stating that in reference to Skinner but not much had changed. The Oilers had D leaving front of net coverage all season. Indeed the D that had best stints here had it early, and before they had adopted to the schemes. Think of early Desharnaia here or Ekholm when they were just being simple stay at home D.

3)Being on a new club is tougher. Being the tapped guy on a team expecting to contend is a lot of mental stress for such a rare spot in sports. Goalies have the same voodoo as pitchers due to the enormous pressure and eyes focusing on them. It takes a certain individual.

4) Coming here to these schemes isn't to Campbells advantage. Like most goalies he would benefit from better net front coverage. He plays kind of small for his size and he doesn't box out crease himself like an Adin Hill does.

5)Campbell is a primary reaction form goalie in a Block form expectation environment. Schwartz is a clear block form advocate. He always has been. He's telling Campbell to do different things than what got Campbell here. Goalies should have their own goalie coach that works best for them.

6)Goaltending and the up and downs is hard enough. you have to have the trust of coaching staff and you cannot have he feeling that you will just be benched for long periods of time if you do struggle. That compounds the risk and vagaries of the position and just results in more tunneling. The key to help a struggling goalie is to give him more, not less chances.