Confirmed with Link: It's Started! (Management firings)

[3ladesof5teel]

I'm not using Keefe's playoff success (one series win) as some sort of argument that he's awesome when it counts. I'm bringing it up ahead of time before someone uses it as a negative to highlight that he's won more than Sullivan has since Keefe entered the league.

In any case, the general point is Keefe at least tries new things offensively. He emphasized puck possession over dump and chase when he took over to take advantage of their roster, since Babcock had them doing a lot more dump and chase and dumping it in deep instead of regrouping in the neutral zone with possession. He also was one of the first to often utilize the high forward dropping back to the point on cycles so that it caused defenses to have to spread out their defensive box instead of just keeping all forwards in deep, allowing the opposition to just clog up the front of the net.

I think this team could use someone who will try *SOMETHING* other than Sullivan's approach or bringing in a dinosaur coach who'll just bring in their system that worked in 2002 because that's all they know.

Sullivan definitely makes some WTF moves in season with player usage. Many coaches have Egos as big as the biggest mountains and that's usually thier downfall, Sullivan is definitely right there.

It did sound like Sullivan was the one that was let's go all in and was putting pressure on Hextall to do the same so there's that. (Sure every coaches goal is to win)

It also sounds like FSG and Sullivan were on the same page as far as going for it. Hex really choked it down though with the big acquisition of Granlund. I am sure the locker room was pumped when he has the green light to go out there and add and come away with Granlund. Not real inspiring if you ask me

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

So the Flyers are hiring shitty studio analyst Keith Jones as their head of hockey ops, that's a choice.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I'm not using Keefe's playoff success (one series win) as some sort of argument that he's awesome when it counts. I'm bringing it up ahead of time before someone uses it as a negative to highlight that he's won more than Sullivan has since Keefe entered the league.

In any case, the general point is Keefe at least tries new things offensively. He emphasized puck possession over dump and chase when he took over to take advantage of their roster, since Babcock had them doing a lot more dump and chase and dumping it in deep instead of regrouping in the neutral zone with possession. He also was one of the first to often utilize the high forward dropping back to the point on cycles so that it caused defenses to have to spread out their defensive box instead of just keeping all forwards in deep, allowing the opposition to just clog up the front of the net.

I think this team could use someone who will try *SOMETHING* other than Sullivan's approach or bringing in a dinosaur coach who'll just bring in their system that worked in 2002 because that's all they know.

I think it's harder to tweak a system/style that still has elements that work versus making a wholesale change. And, frankly, that's what Keefe is running into now and what Sullivan has dealt with the last couple of years.

Both Sullivan and Keefe took over teams that desperately needed a wholesale change in style. As you noted, Toronto was dump-and-chase, more conservative style despite having incredible skill. The Penguins under Mike Johnston weren't as much dump-and-chase, but they were extremely conservative and risk-averse to the point that it completely stifled creativity.

Sullivan and Keefe instituted systems that allowed the creativity to flow again and for speed and skill to take over. Both currently coach teams that have a high level of skill and athleticism. There are times when both still look quite good - Toronto more than the Penguins lately, of course. But there are times when they look quite vulnerable. Some of that is personnel. But some of that is style of play, too.

Sullivan hasn't made the adjustments necessary to get the team back on track consistently. I don't deny that. But there is no question he's still making adjustments, and I only need to point to the Rangers series last year as an example. The Penguins lost 3 of 4 to the Rangers in the regular season and scored four total goals in those games. Shesterkin even waved goodbye after a 3-0 shutout in the last game of the regular season series.

Sullivan adjusted. Jesse documented one of those changes in this tweet:


They scored 29 goals in 7 games. Chased Shesterkin. It ultimately didn't work out because of goaltending.

I have yet to see that kind of adjustment from Keefe. It's easy to do something when it all stinks. It's a lot harder to further refine something to go from good to great.

The fact that we've seen flashes is why I'm still OK with Sullivan staying. I believe the issue is personnel. But he definitely has to improve. And if you're going to move on from him, Keefe is just not the answer.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Someone please get Bergevin's f***ing name off that list of potential GM ASAP

I'm going to lose my shit if we go from Hextall to Bergevin

 

[Darren McCord]

I'm not using Keefe's playoff success (one series win) as some sort of argument that he's awesome when it counts. I'm bringing it up ahead of time before someone uses it as a negative to highlight that he's won more than Sullivan has since Keefe entered the league.

In any case, the general point is Keefe at least tries new things offensively. He emphasized puck possession over dump and chase when he took over to take advantage of their roster, since Babcock had them doing a lot more dump and chase and dumping it in deep instead of regrouping in the neutral zone with possession. He also was one of the first to often utilize the high forward dropping back to the point on cycles so that it caused defenses to have to spread out their defensive box instead of just keeping all forwards in deep, allowing the opposition to just clog up the front of the net.

I think this team could use someone who will try *SOMETHING* other than Sullivan's approach or bringing in a dinosaur coach who'll just bring in their system that worked in 2002 because that's all they know.

Keefe is awful and wont be getting a job after this season as a head coach again for awhile.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

So the Flyers are hiring shitty studio analyst Keith Jones as their head of hockey ops, that's a choice.

I legit googled this because it sounds so much like something an hfboards Pens user would joke about the Flyers doing.

If you had more penalty minutes than career games played as a player, the Flyers have a spot in the front office for you.

 

[ZorkEnchanter]

I think it's harder to tweak a system/style that still has elements that work versus making a wholesale change. And, frankly, that's what Keefe is running into now and what Sullivan has dealt with the last couple of years.

Both Sullivan and Keefe took over teams that desperately needed a wholesale change in style. As you noted, Toronto was dump-and-chase, more conservative style despite having incredible skill. The Penguins under Mike Johnston weren't as much dump-and-chase, but they were extremely conservative and risk-averse to the point that it completely stifled creativity.

Sullivan and Keefe instituted systems that allowed the creativity to flow again and for speed and skill to take over. Both currently coach teams that have a high level of skill and athleticism. There are times when both still look quite good - Toronto more than the Penguins lately, of course. But there are times when they look quite vulnerable. Some of that is personnel. But some of that is style of play, too.

Sullivan hasn't made the adjustments necessary to get the team back on track consistently. I don't deny that. But there is no question he's still making adjustments, and I only need to point to the Rangers series last year as an example. The Penguins lost 3 of 4 to the Rangers in the regular season and scored four total goals in those games. Shesterkin even waved goodbye after a 3-0 shutout in the last game of the regular season series.

Sullivan adjusted. Jesse documented one of those changes in this tweet:


They scored 29 goals in 7 games. Chased Shesterkin. It ultimately didn't work out because of goaltending.

I have yet to see that kind of adjustment from Keefe. It's easy to do something when it all stinks. It's a lot harder to further refine something to go from good to great.

The fact that we've seen flashes is why I'm still OK with Sullivan staying. I believe the issue is personnel. But he definitely has to improve. And if you're going to move on from him, Keefe is just not the answer.

Man, that's a lot of words for so many adjustment to not make the Playoffs...

 

[Gurglesons]

Man, that's a lot of words for so many adjustment to not make the Playoffs...

Don’t worry @DesertedPenguin will be shoving Sully dick down our mouth the next two years while he totally ruins the Sid and Geno era because of reasons.

Hard to not respect a coach that should have won multiple Adams according to Rob Rossi and Josh Yohe and almost won a first round playoff series four years in a row.

 

[Pens x]

Jones won’t be any more useless than Burke as president.

 

[Josey Wales]

 

[SomeDude]

I don’t like Keefe. On a personal level. He apparently still had some kind of relationship with that Frost freak when he was a juniors coach.

I don’t like looking at him. He looks so bloated it’s like he’s on a permanent bender.

 

[cookthebooks]

president keith jone....dafuq?! happily takes him off tv tho right?

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Please NYR, come get him!!!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The new GM/POHO are gonna have to come in and agree (as well as convince FSG) that Sully needs to be replaced. I think we're a calendar year from that, at the very least.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The new GM/POHO are gonna have to come in and agree (as well as convince FSG) that Sully needs to be replaced. I think we're a calendar year from that, at the very least.

Sullivan could strut into the new dork's office on his first day and coil one out on the rug and he'd be thanked for spicing up the décor.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sullivan could strut into the new dork's office on his first day and coil one out on the rug and he'd be thanked for spicing up the décor.

Very true. I still think this place is like the only place in the hockeysphere who gives Sully any bit of grief, let alone outright criticizes him. Seems beloved or outright venerated everywhere else.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Very true. I still think this place is like the only place in the hockeysphere who gives Sully any bit of grief, let alone outright criticizes him. Seems beloved or outright venerated everywhere else.

People's brains ceased functioning somewhere around 2017, I guess.

 

[Josey Wales]

People's brains ceased functioning somewhere around 2017, I guess.

Yeah so close to home

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah so close to home

At least you probably have lead poisoning as an excuse, yeah?

 

[Josey Wales]

At least you probably have lead poisoning as an excuse, yeah?

Nope ! strike 2

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Aw shoot I was really hoping to win a prize or something, too. Now I'm mad. Maybe I'll go burn my Nikes and make an unhinged video in my pickup truck about it.

 

[Josey Wales]

Aw shoot I was really hoping to win a prize or something, too. Now I'm mad. Maybe I'll go burn my Nikes and make an unhinged video in my pickup truck about it.

Gee Wally I don't have a Pickup truck

 

[Freeptop]

One thing that's been bugging me for a bit: what does a "President of Hockey Operations" even do?

It doesn't seem to be the same for any two teams. Sometimes the GM reports to the PHO, sometimes not. Then you have things like Burke with the Pens where the answer was basically *shrug*

If I were somehow magically put in charge of the Penguins, I'd want to clearly delineate what I would expect from the roles. And I'd probably do it something like this:
- President of Hockey Operations is in charge of long-term and big picture. The GM would report to them, but so would amateur scouting and prospect development personnel. The draft in particular would be under their control (trades at the draft would be made by the President with input from the GM, for example).
- The General Manager is in charge of the current NHL roster. So pro scouts would report to them, and so would the GM of the AHL team. Trades affecting the NHL or AHL rosters would be primarily the GMs job, as would free agent signings, and movement between the AHL and NHL. The coach would report to the GM in this model.
- Assistant GM / AHL GM; This person would primarily be responsible for managing the AHL team, but would also be the primary source for determining who on the AHL team is best suited for call-ups. Would also have say on who ends up in the ECHL. Reports to the GM.
- Capologist. They would be responsible for knowing the Salary Cap inside and out, and would report to the President, while working with the GM. They would be responsible for not just the day-to-day of the cap, but also long-term planning. I might even have more than one person in this role, so the day-to-day work can be managed by an AGM who reports to the GM, while there's a VP who reports to the President to manage the long-term planning.
- Director of Analytics. Runs a team of analysts and data scientists. Works with both pro and amateur scouts, but not in charge of them. Likewise, would work with the coaching staff. Reports to the President.

Basically, take a few duties away from the GM so they can focus solely on the NHL roster. Let the President handle the bigger picture. The President would have the authority to hire/fire the GM and any of the other staff members above.

That's my fantasy world, anyway - a whole bunch of clearly delineated roles that attempt to keep any individual exec from having too much on one person's plate, while having a clear chain-of-command as to who is in charge in the end.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It *would* be cool for the team's cap to not be so f***ed up that they have to play the "demote this dude for 6 hours to save 38 bucks against the cap" song and dance all season, ultimately leading to playing with 11 forwards or 5 defense at some point.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

One thing that's been bugging me for a bit: what does a "President of Hockey Operations" even do?

It doesn't seem to be the same for any two teams. Sometimes the GM reports to the PHO, sometimes not. Then you have things like Burke with the Pens where the answer was basically *shrug*

If I were somehow magically put in charge of the Penguins, I'd want to clearly delineate what I would expect from the roles. And I'd probably do it something like this:
- President of Hockey Operations is in charge of long-term and big picture. The GM would report to them, but so would amateur scouting and prospect development personnel. The draft in particular would be under their control (trades at the draft would be made by the President with input from the GM, for example).
- The General Manager is in charge of the current NHL roster. So pro scouts would report to them, and so would the GM of the AHL team. Trades affecting the NHL or AHL rosters would be primarily the GMs job, as would free agent signings, and movement between the AHL and NHL. The coach would report to the GM in this model.
- Assistant GM / AHL GM; This person would primarily be responsible for managing the AHL team, but would also be the primary source for determining who on the AHL team is best suited for call-ups. Would also have say on who ends up in the ECHL. Reports to the GM.
- Capologist. They would be responsible for knowing the Salary Cap inside and out, and would report to the President, while working with the GM. They would be responsible for not just the day-to-day of the cap, but also long-term planning. I might even have more than one person in this role, so the day-to-day work can be managed by an AGM who reports to the GM, while there's a VP who reports to the President to manage the long-term planning.
- Director of Analytics. Runs a team of analysts and data scientists. Works with both pro and amateur scouts, but not in charge of them. Likewise, would work with the coaching staff. Reports to the President.

Basically, take a few duties away from the GM so they can focus solely on the NHL roster. Let the President handle the bigger picture. The President would have the authority to hire/fire the GM and any of the other staff members above.

That's my fantasy world, anyway - a whole bunch of clearly delineated roles that attempt to keep any individual exec from having too much on one person's plate, while having a clear chain-of-command as to who is in charge in the end.

This is how several NHL teams do it and what people thought was happening with Burke and Hextall. Alas...

It's also similar to how FSG has set things up in other sports. There are obviously differences in front office needs/structure in baseball, soccer and hockey. In soccer, the field manager - in this case, Liverpool's Jurgen Klopp - has significant sway. In baseball, it's a lot less. Hockey is probably in-between. But, generally speaking, FSG has set things up so that there is someone at the top is setting the tone for the franchise's direction and keeping things organized. The GM handles the day-to-day operations, player movement, etc. And both of them are supported by scouting departments, player development, finances/capologist, and analytics.