Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

[Ozmodiar]

I'm all for getting PLD, but the thing is what happens next? Assuming we don't get the top 3 guys (I don't see us drafting Michkov), we are likely a bottom 8-12 team. Do we try to add a young top 4 RHD and a goalie to try and make the playoffs? Or do we stay in that bottom 8-12 range and pray that we win a top 3 pick in a draft that doesn't seem like a game-changer is available?

Stay in the 8-12 range, acquire some picks, shed salary.

Fill holes before the 2024 season.

 

[Beer and Chips]

I'm all for getting PLD, but the thing is what happens next? Assuming we don't get the top 3 guys (I don't see us drafting Michkov), we are likely a bottom 8-12 team. Do we try to add a young top 4 RHD and a goalie to try and make the playoffs? Or do we stay in that bottom 8-12 range and pray that we win a top 3 pick in a draft that doesn't seem like a game-changer is available?

Why does it have to be an either/or situation? With PLD the team has four top six forwards with some prospects coming into the pros, and a pile of dmen to develop, you continue the course of drafting and developing and seize opportunities when they arise.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Matheson is not part of the rebuild? LOL. We have a first-pair D after years without one and you don't want him to stick around because he just turned 29. When the Bruins lost to the Hawks in the 2015 finals, Chara was 38 and when they won their Cup in 2011, he was 34.

Hedman is 32 and still a key part of a contending Lightning team.

Boston had to recently pay assets to get 31 year old Orlov becuase they were missing a good vet like him.

Vegas is the 2nd best team in the league with Alec Martinez at 35 and Pietrangelo 33.

Carolina is 3rd best, with Brent Burns at 38 and de Haan at 31.

Colorado is 4th best, with four defencemen 30-35 years old.

New Jersey is 5th best, and has Hamilton who is one year older than Matheson and Brendan Smith at 34.

If Anderson does not count as coming from the outside, then since Suzuki was also acquired by Bergevin, is he not part of the rebuild either?

Years without a first pairing D? Weber and Petry haven’t been gone that long. Lol and they were both a lot better than Matheson. Matheson isn’t playing on the first pair on any team that has legitimate defenseman.

 

[le_sean]

I'm all for getting PLD, but the thing is what happens next? Assuming we don't get the top 3 guys (I don't see us drafting Michkov), we are likely a bottom 8-12 team. Do we try to add a young top 4 RHD and a goalie to try and make the playoffs? Or do we stay in that bottom 8-12 range and pray that we win a top 3 pick in a draft that doesn't seem like a game-changer is available?

The priority would be to get rid of deadweight. Drouin is gone, Hoffman soon. Edmundson is unfortunately at that level now, and he’s likely gone in the summer. Impossible to get rid of Gallagher unfortunately. Hopefully someone bites on Armia. Dvorak can leave and be replaced by Monahan who will make less.

Then you just let the young core take over and build themselves up. At the very least you will have a watchable team. That’s all I ask for next year as guys develop. They have the ammunition to get a RD like you said. Maybe they can surprise and fight for a wildcard spot.

 

[FerrisRox]

Its the curse of Pierre Turgeon, it never fails,

Pierre Turgeon had 127 points in 104 games as a Canadien.

Is the idea that he cursed the team for trading him away?

 

[Scriptor]

You’re a clown. Judging from your posts, I’m not even sure you watch this player. But he’s French Canadian so you have to go out on your shield for him. It’s clear as day to anybody reading this thread what you’re agenda is.

My 'agenda' is clearly something you are trying to manufacture and saying, "By reading my posts," suggest s something you clearly haven't done to lend credence to your claims about some supposed agenda.

Your agenda is to discredit what I am saying and the player. at least, by affirming that, I'm not reaching as you are.

Matheson is not part of the rebuild? LOL. We have a first-pair D after years without one and you don't want him to stick around because he just turned 29. When the Bruins lost to the Hawks in the 2015 finals, Chara was 38 and when they won their Cup in 2011, he was 34.

Hedman is 32 and still a key part of a contending Lightning team.

Boston had to recently pay assets to get 31 year old Orlov becuase they were missing a good vet like him.

Vegas is the 2nd best team in the league with Alec Martinez at 35 and Pietrangelo 33.

Carolina is 3rd best, with Brent Burns at 38 and de Haan at 31.

Colorado is 4th best, with four defencemen 30-35 years old.

New Jersey is 5th best, and has Hamilton who is one year older than Matheson and Brendan Smith at 34.

If Anderson does not count as coming from the outside, then since Suzuki was also acquired by Bergevin, is he not part of the rebuild either?

For tank nation, nothing happened before Hughes became GM. The rebuild started with Slafkovsky and nothing surrounding that exists. The blinders are strapped on firmly and the music is amped up as people try to explain it just isn't so.

 

[Scriptor]

Why does it have to be an either/or situation? With PLD the team has four top six forwards with some prospects coming into the pros, and a pile of dmen to develop, you continue the course of drafting and developing and seize opportunities when they arise.

Also, if I remember correctly, should we fall lower in the top-10 to draft, the last time we picked 9th OA, we ended up with some guy names Sergachev.

We also picked a certain Ryan McDonagh at 12th OA and a certain Max Pacioretty ant 22nd OA the same year.

Multiple first rounders always good should be the lesson learnt. huge are all about multiple first rounders -- A good thing.

Pierre Turgeon had 127 points in 104 games as a Canadien.

Is the idea that he cursed the team for trading him away?

Maybe that's it, like the curse that Paddy St-Roy needs to be reintegrated into the Habs family in some function or other for the Cup to return?

Same malarkey, but fun to entertain, as BOS's curse for trading the Babe in MLB.

 

[Sorinth]

Why does it have to be an either/or situation? With PLD the team has four top six forwards with some prospects coming into the pros, and a pile of dmen to develop, you continue the course of drafting and developing and seize opportunities when they arise.

Yeah, PLD doesn't really change anything about our rebuild, the plan such as it is remains the same, develop the 8 rookies into quality NHLers. Dubois helps in that regard because young guys playing with good players will generally develop faster/better and in the end it's 1 less "star" player you need to draft in the first place.

 

[Habs]

Pierre Turgeon had 127 points in 104 games as a Canadien.

Is the idea that he cursed the team for trading him away?

You got it

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Yeah, PLD doesn't really change anything about our rebuild, the plan such as it is remains the same, develop the 8 rookies into quality NHLers. Dubois helps in that regard because young guys playing with good players will generally develop faster/better and in the end it's 1 less "star" player you need to draft in the first place.

Relying on the draft to rebuilt is almost mission impossible. There is so many examples of top 5 draft who never did anything valuable at NHL level. Plus it takes time they developp until they are clearly generational stars like Lemieux, Ovy, Crosby and McDavid. Habs have already good prospect to developp propelly, they need to be surround with talent, especially on center position. Suzuki need to produce so there is no place really for a rookie on his line to developp. Dach is not established as a dominant center. PLD fills that, it change the whole Habs team as a group. He also helps the face offs and the second wave PP. All this is very good for rookies to developp.

Waiting for better than PLD is waiting very long years. I think the waiting would be so long the GM would have to make a deal to get a legit center, similar to PLD and the price would be high. Having PLD at a low price is an opportunity that happens once in 30 years. The last time was Damphousse and Bobby Smith. Lot of posters here were not born.

You got it

The curse : Carbonneau, Turgeon and Damphousse.

 

[Shawnathon]

Relying on the draft to rebuilt is almost mission impossible. There is so many examples of top 5 draft who never did anything valuable at NHL level. Plus it takes time they developp until they are clearly generational stars like Lemieux, Ovy, Crosby and McDavid. Habs have already good prospect to developp propelly, they need to be surround with talent, especially on center position. Suzuki need to produce so there is no place really for a rookie on his line to developp. Dach is not established as a dominant center. PLD fills that, it change the whole Habs team as a group. He also helps the face offs and the second wave PP. All this is very good for rookies to developp.

Waiting for better than PLD is waiting very long years. I think the waiting would be so long the GM would have to make a deal to get a legit center, similar to PLD and the price would be high. Having PLD at a low price is an opportunity that happens once in 30 years. The last time was Damphousse and Bobby Smith. Lot of posters here were not born.


The curse : Carbonneau, Turgeon and Damphousse.

He’s like a bigger Plekanec. How can you say we only get an opportunity to get a player like this every 30 years when we’ve had players as good in the last decade? The overrating in this thread is absurd.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

He’s like a bigger Plekanec. How can you say we only get an opportunity to get a player like this every 30 years when we’ve had players as good in the last decade? The overrating in this thread is absurd.

A bigger Plekanec !! Really ?? Really ??
Listen, I liked Plekky a lot, very useful player, maybe underated because he was in the shadow of Koivu. Koivu had the best wingers, except Kovalev. I think Koivu and Kovalev didn't get along, maybe jealousy of who being the star at the moment, who knows.
Plekky had about 300 wingers in his career and he never looked bad and did the best he could in the circumstances. Plekky was the perfect bexample of the multi-usage player, one of the best defensive checking center of the league but I would never compare him to PLD. Never Plekky was a power forward playing an agressive forecheck game, never Plekky looked like a 6' 3" player because he was what he was : a small player not playing with grit. Plekky said himself he played like a little girl in play-offs and it was true.

 

[Scriptor]

Your agenda is to convince people Pierre Luc Dubois is a superstar so you can justify overspending on a player that’s just alright because he’s French. You’re part of the weird section of the fanbase this organization has always pandered too.

No it isn't.

I'm not willing to give up whatever WIN wants for Dubois and I'm sure, if Hughes wants Dubois, he has. a reasonable limit set in a trade proposal he will not go over. In trades, Hughes will not move a player under his evaluation of the player's worth and, I assume (yes, I assume, because it only makes reasonable sense) it's the same thing when trying to acquire a player.

I'm also on record saying Dubois is not worth 9M, although Montreal could afford to pay him 9M and still add more talent, whether it s through the draft and one day paying them fair value, through other trades or via the UFA market, eventually.

And your argument about pandering to those who want Qubecers is, outside of a trade for Drouin, ludicrous. In the years before that, there had never been so few Quebecers on the roster. Drafting under Timmins and Bergevin was anything but pandering to that base you describe. It saw the largest decline in Qubecers (I include players like Matheson and Mitchell, not just those with French as their Mother Tongue) on the roster and I never complained about it.

Bassically, you just sound biased and are full of shit to support that bias.

You can describe me as the opposite of what I've been saying all you want, but you're wrong.

I'm not dredging up prior posts that show you are wrong because I'm not on some stupid kangaroo court stand because you say I should be.

I've also tried to give reasonable points to support my position and, if you just keep responding with statements like my account is a burner account for some (sometimes, definitely not always) like-minded poster, you're just presenting yourself as an idiot.

I can't help improve the very image of yourself you choose to portray, nor will I be inclined to do so if I can.

Please stop lying abut my stance or my motivations to suit your bias, all without foundation.

Thank you and good day.

 

[Shawnathon]

A bigger Plekanec !! Really ?? Really ??
Listen, I liked Plekky a lot, very useful player, maybe underated because he was in the shadow of Koivu. Koivu had the best wingers, except Kovalev. I think Koivu and Kovalev didn't get along, maybe jealousy of who being the star at the moment, who knows.
Plekky had about 300 wingers in his career and he never looked bad and did the best he could in the circumstances. Plekky was the perfect bexample of the multi-usage player, one of the best defensive checking center of the league but I would never compare him to PLD. Never Plekky was a power forward playing an agressive forecheck game, never Plekky looked like a 6' 3" player because he was what he was : a small player not playing with grit. Plekky said himself he played like a little girl in play-offs and it was true.

90% of this thread is you and that Scriptor guy desperately selling hype on this guy. He’s pacing for 60 points in an era where teams are scoring 3.18 goals per game. It’s solid production, but it’s nothing like you’re describing. And being 6’3 and 200+ pounds doesn’t make you a power forward by default. I feel bad for anyone reading your posts and believing it, because if we do get him they’ll have a false sense of what he is and will be disappointed.

 

[Scriptor]

Your agenda is to convince people Pierre Luc Dubois is a superstar so you can justify overspending on a player that’s just alright because he’s French. You’re part of the weird section of the fanbase this organization has always pandered too.

My agenda is to show that you don't need to be biased, one way or the other, to recognize that Dubois is a talented, big-bodied forward entering his prime years with remaining upside on the 25-goal, 60-point floor which he has established to this day.

Culturally biased fans of the Habs are those who are the most vehemently opposed to acquiring Dubois, including francophone Qubecers that exist who are sometimes the quickest to resent a local, francophone product.

It should not be a question based on ethnicity or language when to coms to Dubois, but the ones trying to make it about that are the ones who have such bias.

I'm not - you are.

 

[Shawnathon]

My agenda is to show that you don't need to be biased, one way or the other, to recognize that Dubois is a talented, big-bodied forward entering his prime years with remaining upside on the 25-goal, 60-point floor which he has established to this day.

Culturally biased fans of the Habs are those who are the most vehemently opposed to acquiring Dubois, including francophone Qubecers that exist who are sometimes the quickest to resent a local, francophone product.

It should not be a question based on ethnicity or language when to coms to Dubois, but the ones trying to make it about that are the ones who have such bias.

I'm not - you are.

If his name was Kent Johnson from Vancouver, BC would you care this much?

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

He’s like a bigger Plekanec. How can you say we only get an opportunity to get a player like this every 30 years when we’ve had players as good in the last decade? The overrating in this thread is absurd.

Okay, I'll play your "game" for the fun. If it was easy to get a center like Plekanec, prove it !
Plekanec was a nhl player and not just a prospect some people expect could become better than Plekanec. He had a long lasting career with constant pts, this and being one of the best checking center in the league. He would be worth between 4,5 and 5,5M in today's salary. If Dvorak was as good as Plekky was, nobody would complain about Dvo.

Try to find a center Hughes could acquire with ease. A center similar to Plekanec. And I'm telling you it's hard to find.

 

[26Mats]

The priority would be to get rid of deadweight. Drouin is gone, Hoffman soon. Edmundson is unfortunately at that level now, and he’s likely gone in the summer. Impossible to get rid of Gallagher unfortunately. Hopefully someone bites on Armia. Dvorak can leave and be replaced by Monahan who will make less.

Then you just let the young core take over and build themselves up. At the very least you will have a watchable team. That’s all I ask for next year as guys develop. They have the ammunition to get a RD like you said. Maybe they can surprise and fight for a wildcard spot.

It would feel like watching paint dry to have to watch a full year with a roster populated by Gallagjer, Hoffman, Armia, Edmundson, and Dvo at center. Wonder if having any sympathy for fan viewing goes into Highes' decisions. I mean I understand if the price is too high to move Armia and Hoffman. But he can always send them to Laval.

And on a side note, I would have no problem watching Dvo on the wing. His offensive tools and overall solid game could make him a great 3rd line, even 2nd line complementary winger.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

90% of this thread is you and that Scriptor guy desperately selling hype on this guy. He’s pacing for 60 points in an era where teams are scoring 3.18 goals per game. It’s solid production, but it’s nothing like you’re describing. And being 6’3 and 200+ pounds doesn’t make you a power forward by default. I feel bad for anyone reading your posts and believing it, because if we do get him they’ll have a false sense of what he is and will be disappointed.

So you did not respond correctly to my post. You wrote nothing about Plekanec because you just named Plekky randomly, because maybe you never saw him play. Can you explain the Plekanec comparaison instead of deflecting the discussion. Back to Plekanec please.

If I quote you correctly you don't want Habs to have a 60 pts player. Tell us why a 60 pts player is not welcome.

 

[Sorinth]

If his name was Kent Johnson from Vancouver, BC would you care this much?

Would you?

 

[Scriptor]

Relying on the draft to rebuilt is almost mission impossible. There is so many examples of top 5 draft who never did anything valuable at NHL level. Plus it takes time they developp until they are clearly generational stars like Lemieux, Ovy, Crosby and McDavid. Habs have already good prospect to developp propelly, they need to be surround with talent, especially on center position. Suzuki need to produce so there is no place really for a rookie on his line to developp. Dach is not established as a dominant center. PLD fills that, it change the whole Habs team as a group. He also helps the face offs and the second wave PP. All this is very good for rookies to developp.

Waiting for better than PLD is waiting very long years. I think the waiting would be so long the GM would have to make a deal to get a legit center, similar to PLD and the price would be high. Having PLD at a low price is an opportunity that happens once in 30 years. The last time was Damphousse and Bobby Smith. Lot of posters here were not born.


The curse : Carbonneau, Turgeon and Damphousse.

I absolutely agree with you, but wish to add certain points to bolster those you made because, the usual opposers will try to seize individual statements, out of context, to state their case.à

Even top-5 talent that pans out as impact players, more often than not, aren't immediate All-Stars. as you say, they need time (years, even) to develop and not all should start developing at the NHL level in their D+1 season.

The development department is the backbone that makes drafts successful and Montreal, finally, has invested heavily in this department. The key here is that all prospects have talent and upside. Proper development only increases the odds of those prospects reaching their projected ceilings at the NHL level.

The C-line is the backbone of the forward group and, again, as you state, surrounding the prospects in the NHL with talent, especially at C, enables proper development.

Adding Dubois, or some other player with a Swahili name, for all I care - I don't give a $hit -- that is an established, quality top-6 C achieves this purpose.

It's true that Dach, despite some decent flashes when he was healthy and not playing on the wing, is not an established, dominant C yet. Hopes are, surely, that he can develop into one such pivot and, playing with Dubois as a C, alternating into the C position, if you want, can also surround Dach properly and help him attain the status of a dominant C. No C that can also play W, like Suzuki, Dubois, Dach and, IMHO, Bedard, Fantilli, or Carlsson (should we be lucky enough to draft them) is a wasted element on offense of they are not playing C.

Options would abound when everyone had reached their potential in full stride.

If we can acquire PLD at a reasonable (low) price -- it's all subjective, though -- Hughes would be an idiot not to add talent in a value trade when the opportunity arises. But, MOST IMPORTANTLY, again, Hughes would never be trapped into anything if, after acquiring Dubois, our own 2023 1st round selection, for example, became a better, elite C.

Dubois would then become a big-bodied winger, or, if better than Suzuki at that point, a C in Suzuki's place. If Dach had become better than either Dubois and Suzuki, I know it will sound horrible to some, but we would then have two talented wingers in Dubois and Suzuki tom play on the top-6, one a lefty and the other a righty, perhaps both playing on the same top-6 line, even.

It's not like Suzuki and Dubois, both established dual threats that can score goals and create scoring chances form their line mates, would be eyesores or a handicap for the top-6 on the wing.

Of course, this serious discussion means absolutely nothing to some, under the pretext that I am either your burner Account because I agree with you on this subject, or because, contrary to what I have been maintaining from the start, I must only want Dubois because his name is Dubois.

 

[MXD]

A bigger Plekanec !! Really ?? Really ??
Listen, I liked Plekky a lot, very useful player, maybe underated because he was in the shadow of Koivu. Koivu had the best wingers, except Kovalev. I think Koivu and Kovalev didn't get along, maybe jealousy of who being the star at the moment, who knows.
Plekky had about 300 wingers in his career and he never looked bad and did the best he could in the circumstances. Plekky was the perfect bexample of the multi-usage player, one of the best defensive checking center of the league but I would never compare him to PLD. Never Plekky was a power forward playing an agressive forecheck game, never Plekky looked like a 6' 3" player because he was what he was : a small player not playing with grit. Plekky said himself he played like a little girl in play-offs and it was true.

A bigger Plekanec in his prime is probably a 7-7.5M player in today's financial environmen, and a pretty good asset if he's all in all your third or fourth best forward, which is a luxury he was rarely afforded on this team (during his prime he was, all in all, probably the second best forward, sometimes even the best).

Which is exactly what PLD would be (even if they're completely different type of playrs).

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I absolutely agree with you, but wish to add certain points to bolster those you made because, the usual opposers will try to seize individual statements, out of context, to state their case.à

Even top-5 talent that pans out as impact players, more often than not, aren't immediate All-Stars. as you say, they need time (years, even) to develop and not all should start developing at the NHL level in their D+1 season.

The development department is the backbone that makes drafts successful and Montreal, finally, has invested heavily in this department. The key here is that all prospects have talent and upside. Proper development only increases the odds of those prospects reaching their projected ceilings at the NHL level.

The C-line is the backbone of the forward group and, again, as you state, surrounding the prospects in the NHL with talent, especially at C, enables proper development.

Adding Dubois, or some other player with a Swahili name, for all I care - I don't give a $hit -- that is an established, quality top-6 C achieves this purpose.

It's true that Dach, despite some decent flashes when he was healthy and not playing on the wing, is not an established, dominant C yet. Hopes are, surely, that he can develop into one such pivot and, playing with Dubois as a C, alternating into the C position, if you want, can also surround Dach properly and help him attain the status of a dominant C. No C that can also play W, like Suzuki, Dubois, Dach and, IMHO, Bedard, Fantilli, or Carlsson (should we be lucky enough to draft them) is a wasted element on offense of they are not playing C.

Options would abound when everyone had reached their potential in full stride.

If we can acquire PLD at a reasonable (low) price -- it's all subjective, though -- Hughes would be an idiot not to add talent in a value trade when the opportunity arises. But, MOST IMPORTANTLY, again, Hughes would never be trapped into anything if, after acquiring Dubois, our own 2023 1st round selection, for example, became a better, elite C.

Dubois would then become a big-bodied winger, or, if better than Suzuki at that point, a C in Suzuki's place. If Dach had become better than either Dubois and Suzuki, I know it will sound horrible to some, but we would then have two talented wingers in Dubois and Suzuki tom play on the top-6, one a lefty and the other a righty, perhaps both playing on the same top-6 line, even.

It's not like Suzuki and Dubois, both established dual threats that can score goals and create scoring chances form their line mates, would be eyesores or a handicap for the top-6 on the wing.

Of course, this serious discussion means absolutely to some, under the pretext that I am either your burner Account because I agree with you on this subject, or because, contrary to what I have been maintaining from the start, I must only want Dubois because his name is Dubois.

Do you realise that the anti-PLD have no solution except suck many years to have the opportunity to draft a new generational talent like McDavid. This is what they say basicly. They want the tank to be done correctly. We had Slaf being #1 OA and it wan't enough. Not a good year to tank. We might not get Bedard, Carlsson or Fantili or Michkov so we have to suck another year too. Or maybe 2 or 3 years. This obsession of losing many years is becoming a desease. These tankers became blind with this obsession and they refuse any move that would make the team to improve and rebuilt faster. They create that francophone biais thing like if there was a kind of agenda. Is this is not a new layer of conspiracy? I call that paranoia. Can you imagine Bruins fans bashing Bergeron because he is francophone so they would try to win a Cup without a francophone? Because one francophone who suffered from mental depression means all the francophones will be like him? Boston Bruins would think like that, especially now?

A bigger Plekanec in his prime is probably a 7-7.5M player in today's financial environmen, and a pretty good asset if he's all in all your third or fourth best forward, which is a luxury he was rarely afforded on this team (during his prime he was, all in all, probably the second best forward, sometimes even the best).

Which is exactly what PLD would be (even if they're completely different type of playrs).

He wrote a bigger Plekanec not knowing who Plekanec was. As a matter of fact like you explain, I would like a bigger Plekanec. Any time !

 

[Goldthorpe]

A "bigger Plekanec" is absolutely someone who could be part of the core of a competitive team.

Plekanec was seen as part of the habs core during his prime.

 

[MXD]

A "bigger Plekanec" is absolutely someone who could be part of the core of a competitive team.

Plekanec was seen as part of the habs core during his prime.

He was too high on the F general quality depth chart, but that's hardly his problem, and he was paid really appropriately until his 2-year, 6M/per deal kicked in (and by then he really was no more than a 3rd C).

In fact, when Plekanec's first UFA deal was signed, his caphit % would be about on par for the generally accepted Dubois caphit, that is, somewhere between 7 and 8M.