Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

[SlafySZN]

Really? How so?

I'm trying to understand how that would prevent the Habs to pick an elite player with their own draft pick (I think that the odds are significantly lower with the FLA pick), or how they would be prevented on developing Slafkovsky, or Roy, into an elite player?

Unless all your hopes rest in sucking for several more years and picking in the top-5 over and over again, leaving it all up to providence that there will be elite players for us to pick when we do, I don't see how trading for Dubois who, I would argue, has a floor as a 25-goal, 60 point player, rather than being a definitive 60-point player and nothing else, will prevent us from acquiring an elite player?

So, if your brilliant plan isn't a full out tank and wasting precious years off Suzuki, Caufield and Dach, please let me know what it is.

If it's a full out membership to tank nation, we'll agree to disagree, with me certain you have no actual plan for the rebuild and aren't looking at the big picture.

I understand that some believe that you should tank until you land a generational player and some elite counterparts and, then, only then, should you try to actually build the complete team.

That just wastes precious years from the generational and elite players instead, because it is a team sport and lacking other components won't get you a Cup either.

Just look at both Matthews(25/26) and McDavid (26/27), plus Marner (25/26), plus Draisaitl (27/28) and see how they are legitimately in a situation to ask themselves if their GM knows how to build a winner as they approach UFA status (1 year left for Matthews, 3 years left for McDavid, 2 years left for Marner, 2 years left for Draisaitl).

If Toronto and Edmonton don't sort things out, despite the fans' enthusiasm with all their dazzle dazzle during regular season games, it's unclear that these players will extend with either team when their contracts are up, unless they feel to blame for the lack of success and desperately want to prove that legacy wrong?

Did Colorado wasted precious years of Mackinnon and Rantanen?

They need at least one or 2 player better than Suzuki/Caufield/Dach/Slaf.

I can guarantee they won’t cry to have to wait 3 years if it means playing with elite talent. What’s bad is wanting to go too quick and trade for ‘’good’’ players just to ‘’maybe’’ make the playoffs now in the near futur and all these guys never goes further as a group because management never did the right thing to surround them, again.

 

[Rapala]

Shayne Corson in his first stint in Montreal was undoubtably a power forward. When he returned for his second stretch, he no longer played a power forward game.



I think the key to Suzuki becoming a 75-80 point centre is a healthy Cole Caufield on his wing.

A more versatile stable winger on that right side will also go a very very long way in helping both those guys become PPG.

 

[Scriptor]

Exactly. If he’s not worthy enough to trade a few simple assets for to get a year earlier, he’s probably not someone you want for free either. Cap space is the most important asset.

I look at someone like Dach who saw the Canadiens believed in his potential and gave a significant asset to get him and he’s responded in kind. I think we take players feelings for granted at times. I like my job, but if they don’t show that they value me, I’ll go somewhere else.

I think we take players feelings for granted at times. I like my job, but if they don’t show that they value me, I’ll go somewhere else.

I was offered another gig in the same position, and a much higher position for the gig after that and, while that might sound like they valued me, it was also as a means to dump more work on my shoulders and domes that they should be doing themselves.

I passed, on both gigs, preferring to take my health into consideration rather than to be maneuvered into burning out. Somebody else would eventually have been offered the same thing after I was gone.

Optics are important when trying to acquire talent. Dubois may genuinely want to come to Montreal, but if there is no apparent genuine reciprocity (no, wait a year and we'll see just how bad you wanted to come here does not amount to genuine reciprocity), why would Dubois want to step into a situation where the team isn't really committed and wouldn't be invested enough not to throw him under the bus at the slightest drought in production, even if the player was contributing otherwise on the ice?

 

[Scriptor]

Did Colorado wasted precious years of Mackinnon and Rantanen?

They need at least one or 2 player better than Suzuki/Caufield/Dach/Slaf.

I can guarantee they won’t cry to have to wait 3 years if it means playing with elite talent. What’s bad is wanting to go too quick and trade for ‘’good’’ players just to ‘’maybe’’ make the playoffs now in the near futur and all these guys never goes further as a group because management never did the right thing to surround them, again.

Still waiting for your explanation because I have repeatedly said that I don't think that adding Dubois will make the Habs a playoff team yet next season, but it will help surround Caufield, Dach and Suzuki in a better environment to develop and progress, coming closer to reaching their projected ceiling in the process.

Development and progress comes with confidence. Letting players rot while awaiting a Saviour tends to go against the grain, IMO, even if, as always there are exceptions to the rule.

I prefer a proactive GM who can fish in the draft waters, the trade waters and, eventually, when the team is almost complete, the UFA waters.

Since it's difficult for you to express your plan and you just talk about too soon as the cornerstone of your complaints regarding acquiring Dubois, how long must Montreal suck and tank to satisfy you? How long must our young core wait for reinforcements?

 

[le_sean]

Still waiting for your explanation because I have repeatedly said that I don't think that adding Dubois will make the Habs a playoff team yet next season, but it will help surround Caufield, Dach and Suzuki in a better environment to develop and progress, coming closer to reaching their projected ceiling in the process.

Development and progress comes with confidence. Letting players rot while awaiting a Saviour tends to go against the grain, IMO, even if, as always there are exceptions to the rule.

I prefer a proactive GM who can fish in the draft waters, the trade waters and, eventually, when the team is almost complete, the UFA waters.

Since it's difficult for you to express your plan and you just talk about too soon as the cornerstone of your complaints regarding acquiring Dubois, how long must Montreal suck and tank to satisfy you? How long must our young core wait for reinforcements?

The core needs to be built and grow together. Look at how long it took the Avs, Lightning to win the Cup. They didn’t just add elite talent and win the year after.

While Dubois won’t turn the Habs into a playoff team next year, he’s not preventing anything from happening. Without him, they will be picking between 10-16 next year. With him it just means picking 12-18.

Next year is a transition year, the kids getting better and the deadweight leaving. Anyone expecting them to tank again will be surprised.

 

[Scriptor]

Did Colorado wasted precious years of Mackinnon and Rantanen?

They need at least one or 2 player better than Suzuki/Caufield/Dach/Slaf.

I can guarantee they won’t cry to have to wait 3 years if it means playing with elite talent. What’s bad is wanting to go too quick and trade for ‘’good’’ players just to ‘’maybe’’ make the playoffs now in the near futur and all these guys never goes further as a group because management never did the right thing to surround them, again.

This year's draft pick for Montreal could become that. Does it become, "One is not enough, finally - we need at least another or two more..." for you?

What if this year's pick becomes better than the rest (lots of elite level player analyses being thrown about like it's free candy for top-10 candidates in the 2023 draft without these players ever having played against men) and Hutson proves to be elite?

Is it now, "One or two forwards - I wasn't talking about Ds..." for you?

What if the development arm of the revamped Habs organization optimnizes the skill level and hockey sense that Roy carries and he becomes elite?

Does he count, or would we now be after four or five elite players, including at least two Ds?

If what you were after was clear, I might be more prone to finding it to be another viable option, even if I still disagreed with it.

Unfortunately, it looks at the few examples where it worked out and says, "That," assuming history will repeat itself identically.

It doesn't and your approach is a gamble that could even become a huge and unending gamble.

I think that Bergevin signing Suzuki to an 8-year contract was a good step in reassuring talent to join the team later on into believing that there would be some meat to support them in their progression.

I think that having Caufield signed to a long term deal will also help in those optics.

Adding Dubois, which is far from the useless non elite plug he is portrayed to be (of course, nobody says he is a useless, non-elite p-lug, but every veiled excuse for him not to be helpful to the Habs' rebuild is tantamount to saying that) would also reassure Suzuki and Caufield, as well as Dach, since he would represent reinforcements for the younger players and support in their quest to progress, individually, and as a team.

 

[Captain97]

They probably wrote "and also he is french" to please the franco fans. I doubt they wrote they want him mainly because he's french (we should say quebecois, french is in the old continent). And even if some wrote this, just ignore it. It should not influence your personal opinion.

But anyway, the way you wrote it was a bad parallel comparing Dubois with Drouin, without any slight difference. After all these pages of discussion you came with that short horrible post. Sorry to disagree but it was anti-quebecois. You should apologise. If you were a bird, you would have lost almost all your feathers and not be able to fly until they grow again.

I'm in the voat of and he's a local. Big, physical skilled, power forward that plays C and W 25 and under is a player I always want. Him being a local that wants to play for the Habs is a nice bonus.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

if you've been a Habs fan long enough, you know that trading for, or signing, a 70+ point player turns him into a 50 pt player in Montreal. Its the curse of Pierre Turgeon, it never fails, we can't have nice things. Is it the system? probably. Offense never flourishes under the Molson family, history doesn't lie. If McDavid were in Montreal he'd probably be a 80pt player at best, it's as if the inner workings of this club detest offense.

even if we have players on the verge, they continuously get hurt so the medical system here won't allow a player to flourish anyways. Tell me I'm wrong, they are traded away instead of built around. the team hasn't had a top 10 point producer in over 35 years. Disgusting

The curse of Pierre Turgeon who scored over 90 points in his only full season in Montreal?

 

[Sorinth]

if you've been a Habs fan long enough, you know that trading for, or signing, a 70+ point player turns him into a 50 pt player in Montreal. Its the curse of Pierre Turgeon, it never fails, we can't have nice things. Is it the system? probably. Offense never flourishes under the Molson family, history doesn't lie. If McDavid were in Montreal he'd probably be a 80pt player at best, it's as if the inner workings of this club detest offense.

even if we have players on the verge, they continuously get hurt so the medical system here won't allow a player to flourish anyways. Tell me I'm wrong, they are traded away instead of built around. the team hasn't had a top 10 point producer in over 35 years. Disgusting

Tatar had career highs in Montreal, and Kovalev didn't really have any sort of production drop, if anything he had a bit of a bounce back few years. But yes historically it's been true more often then not, although a big difference now beyond the systems/coach not being defence above everything, but we actually have a supporting cast so that the new guy isn't required to carry the offence load alone on his back.

 

[Scriptor]

The core needs to be built and grow together. Look at how long it took the Avs, Lightning to win the Cup. They didn’t just add elite talent and win the year after.

While Dubois won’t turn the Habs into a playoff team next year, he’s not preventing anything from happening. Without him, they will be picking between 10-16 next year. With him it just means picking 12-18.

Next year is a transition year, the kids getting better and the deadweight leaving. Anyone expecting them to tank again will be surprised.

That's the precise point I am making. The team needs to grow together and adding Dubois just fills out more talent in the same age bracket that will grow together. Talent gets better playing with talent and adding Dubois will only help the kids progress and get closer to their projected ceilings.

I'm all for the tank -- I'll watch something else for the next 7-10 years -- if those that suggest it take the only reasonable approach to the tank which is to tank year upon year until you draft a franchise player, but, under that approach, you don't put other talented prospects on pause until the magic moment materializes itself.

If I were told to unload Suzuki, Caufield and, even, Dach, and then wait for the franchise player (odds would actually be greater to acquire one because the team wouldn't be on the verge of being any good), it would actually make sense.

I'd still be against to, but there would be a plan:

1) Acquire franchise player through the draft
2) Sucks four or five more years because you only have franchise player and nobody to support him
3) Keep adding talent through the draft during this four or five years
4) Start making trades of veterans and adding UFAs to complete the lineup and keep adding talent throughout draft.
5) Within a couple of years, you might contend for the Cup (or not)

-Matthews has been with the Leafs 7 full seasons. Nada
-Marner has been with the Leafs 7 full seasons. Nada
- Mcdavid has been with the Oilers 8 full seasons. Nada.
-Draisaitl has been with the Oilers 9 seasons. Nada.

I'm not sure these teams will be winning the Cup this year, anytime soon, or ever, even. Every year it's their time, but, ultimately, isn't.

McKinnon has played ten full seasons with the AVs. Luckily for him, he won the Cup in the 9th year with Colorado.

It took 13 years after drafting Ovechkin for the Caps to in a Cup, and it was their one win, despite all the talent that paraded through Washington along the way.

There's a lot of luck involved in adding all these other pieces to McKinnon that elevated the AVs to Cup-winning status and it could be argued that Lehkonen -- Friggin' Lehkonen -- was the missing piece to win it all. With a few changes during the offseason, Colorado isn't as much of a favourite to repeat. Injury, chemistry, it's always a fragile proposition to win the Cup.

I'm all for the possibility that we might have assembled a Cup-contending, or a Cup-winning team by tanking and waiting for that franchise player and elite players afterwards.

7 years and waiting for Matthews and Marner, despite having added Tavares and Nylander, plus having O'Reilly as a #1D...

8 and 9 years and waiting for McDavid and Draisaitl, despite having Nugent-Hopkins and adding Nurse on D

9 years after drafting McKinnon before the AVs finally won a Cup.

13 years after drafting Ovechkin.

There's always exceptions, like PIT after drafting Crosby, but that was the result of a lockout-induced lottery and Lemieux was still around to mentor the phenom that Crosby was, plus several other quality players already on the team.

Four years, only, it took for PIT and Crosby to win the Cup, but, while unlike Ovechkin and the Caps, they were able to win more Cups with Crosby, it took another 7 years before Crosby and his Penguins won another Cup!

I know, if those 7 years had only remained the longest cup drought for the Habs as it had been up to 1993...

We'd have four more Cups already...

So, being proactive, or really taking the waiting game route?

4 years after drafting a phenom (because he'd need to play in the NHL right away for it to be 4 years), and the team can't really suck full tank mode becaus hit would require minimum of talent to already be in the roster for it to take only four years (bit of a catch-22 -- yeah, I forgot, special lottery because of the lockout)

Otherwise, we're on 7 years and counting without knowing if we will ever win a Cup with Matthews and Marner (M&M) and 8 or 9 years and counting with McDavid and Draisaitl without knowing if we will ever win a Cup?

Or 9 years after selecting McKinnon?

Or 13 years after selecting Oveckin?

Even if we're extremely patient, let's say, we don't yet have that franchise player issued from the draft!

Will it be this year with some litter luck and a choice pick of Bedard?

Will it be next year?

The following year?

In four or five years?

Plus 7, 8, 9 or 13 years beyond that?

If you all don't mind, I'll trust in HuGo to be more proactive and have a decent idea on how to build a perennial contender.

I think I'll be relying less on the alignement of the stars, Providence and wall-to-wall, Shit-out-of-hell good luck!

Otherwise, I might be dead before I see another Cup ( to the pleasure of some of the most ardent tankers/ists, I think )

 

[SlafySZN]

This year's draft pick for Montreal could become that. Does it become, "One is not enough, finally - we need at least another or two more..." for you?

What if this year's pick becomes better than the rest (lots of elite level player analyses being thrown about like it's free candy for top-10 candidates in the 2023 draft without these players ever having played against men) and Hutson proves to be elite?

Is it now, "One or two forwards - I wasn't talking about Ds..." for you?

What if the development arm of the revamped Habs organization optimnizes the skill level and hockey sense that Roy carries and he becomes elite?

Does he count, or would we now be after four or five elite players, including at least two Ds?

If what you were after was clear, I might be more prone to finding it to be another viable option, even if I still disagreed with it.

Unfortunately, it looks at the few examples where it worked out and says, "That," assuming history will repeat itself identically.

It doesn't and your approach is a gamble that could even become a huge and unending gamble.

I think that Bergevin signing Suzuki to an 8-year contract was a good step in reassuring talent to join the team later on into believing that there would be some meat to support them in their progression.

I think that having Caufield signed to a long term deal will also help in those optics.

Adding Dubois, which is far from the useless non elite plug he is portrayed to be (of course, nobody says he is a useless, non-elite p-lug, but every veiled excuse for him not to be helpful to the Habs' rebuild is tantamount to saying that) would also reassure Suzuki and Caufield, as well as Dach, since he would represent reinforcements for the younger players and support in their quest to progress, individually, and as a team.

I won’t repeat myself over and over again, you already know my opinion but don’t accept it which is fine.

I don’t think it’s the time to had a player like Dubois, not the time to add a long term contract and big money at this point. Not just Dubois. I don’t see why they would do that when their goal is not to compete in the next 2-3-4 years.

End of my comments here.

 

[Scriptor]

if you've been a Habs fan long enough, you know that trading for, or signing, a 70+ point player turns him into a 50 pt player in Montreal. Its the curse of Pierre Turgeon, it never fails, we can't have nice things. Is it the system? probably. Offense never flourishes under the Molson family, history doesn't lie. If McDavid were in Montreal he'd probably be a 80pt player at best, it's as if the inner workings of this club detest offense.

even if we have players on the verge, they continuously get hurt so the medical system here won't allow a player to flourish anyways. Tell me I'm wrong, they are traded away instead of built around. the team hasn't had a top 10 point producer in over 35 years. Disgusting

Thanks for the scarecrow of Montreal's past, where the system was predicated on a G-first , Defense-laden approach to winning games, first with Roy and, then, with Price.

Hell, when Roy moved to Colorado, the system changed and the GPG dropped significantly there.

Maybe we can stop scaring the children before they go to bed and recognize that HuGo's tenure, especially after hiring St-Louis, is not lead by the coaching system under Ducharme, Julien, Therrien, Martin, etc...

Hopefully, that folly is over.

 

[Scriptor]

I won’t repeat myself over and over again, you already know my opinion but don’t accept it which is fine.

I don’t think it’s the time to had a player like Dubois, not the time to add a long term contract and big money at this point. Not just Dubois. I don’t see why they would do that when their goal is not to compete in the next 2-3-4 years.

End of my comments here.

Perfect. No explanation of your vision. It's not an end comment. It's a no comment and I suspect what I described is exactly what you suggest -- NO PLAN. Any repetition from you has only suggested NO PLAN.

Hell, in my recent posts, I've given more shape to your NO PLAN than you ever have.

I can't give a thumbs up to NO PLAN as an alternative.

Sorry.

But, honestly, I'm not looking for a fight with you -- or anyone for that matter -- and I'll stop responding to your posts about Dubois (not the others) because I've tried to see if we could get somewhere with this and it's obvious we can't, for whatever reason and with nobody to single out as the reason for it.

I agree to disagree. I just still don't know what I'm really disagreeing with as a rebuild plan because I don't see one yet.

 

[BaseballCoach]

if you've been a Habs fan long enough, you know that trading for, or signing, a 70+ point player turns him into a 50 pt player in Montreal.

Did this drop in production happen to:

Max Domi?

Tomas Tatar?

Kirby Dach?

Mike Matheson?

 

[Garry Valk]

Did this drop in production happen to:

Max Domi?

Tomas Tatar?

Kirby Dach?

Mike Matheson?

Literally zero of those players had 70+ points in a season before being traded to the Habs.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Perfect. No explanation of your vision. It's not an end comment. It's a no comment and I suspect what I described is exactly what you suggest -- NO PLAN. Any repetition from you has only suggested NO PLAN.

Hell, in my recent posts, I've given more shape to your NO PLAN than you ever have.

I can't give a thumbs up to NO PLAN as an alternative.

Sorry.

But, honestly, I'm not looking for a fight with you -- or anyone for that matter -- and I'll stop responding to your posts about Dubois (not the others) because I've tried to see if we could get somewhere with this and it's obvious we can't, for whatever reason and with nobody to single out as the reason for it.

I agree to disagree. I just still don't know what I'm really disagreeing with as a rebuild plan because I don't see one yet.

People who say not to acquire talent for another 2-3-4 years are probably thinking of tanking for Michael Misa (class of 2025), now that it looks like we won't get Bedard.

Thing is, even if we finished last, our odds for Misa would only be 25.5%.

So in order to bring the odds up a lot, the best appoach is to trade everything we can in order to get as many first picks in 2025 as we can. A proper selloff should give us 17-18 first round picks. That would give us about 60% odds and even if do not win the lottery with those odds, we could trade several of our picks to the lottery winner, and still have some left to re-stock our team of all the assets we liquidated. The only trick would be to figure out how to hit the cap floor while we do this. There are surely some bad contracts we could take on.

Literally zero of those players had 70+ points in a season before being traded to the Habs.

Ok, we were being litera!. Please name all the 70 point players we traded for who became 50 point players.

 

[SlafySZN]

.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

.

Pretending that acquiring good players should have an order is one of the dumbest things I see trotted out on this board.

 

[SlafySZN]

Pretending that acquiring good players should have an order is one of the dumbest things I see trotted out on this board.

You don’t think a team should have their core set and team in place before acquiring players from outside your organisation?

Why didn’t the devils acquired a Meier type player 2-3 years ago if it doesn’t matter?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

You don’t think a team should have their core set and team in place before acquiring players from outside your organisation?

Why didn’t the devils acquired a Meier type player 2-3 years ago if it doesn’t matter?

No, I think good players should be acquired when they're available and that you don't let them run past you because of some artificial strategy to lose more games for players who likely won't develop in the one you're letting go. It's utter insanity and no GM worth their salt would do that. I think New Jersey would have been better off if they had acquired a Meier 2-3 years ago, should they have been available. Hell, didn't they sign Dougie Hamilton to a massive contract two years ago? They'd already been missing the playoffs for 5-7 years at that point.

The idea that a professional team should have a 'core set' before acquiring other good players via trade or UFA is absolutely moronic. Yeah, I believe that 1000%.

 

[SlafySZN]

No, I think good players should be acquired when they're available and that you don't let them run past you because of some artificial strategy to lose more games for players who likely won't develop in the one you're letting go. It's utter insanity and no GM worth their salt would do that. I think New Jersey would have been better off if they had acquired a Meier 2-3 years ago, should they have been available. Hell, didn't they sign Dougie Hamilton to a massive contract two years ago? They'd already been missing the playoffs for 5-7 years at that point.

The idea that a professional team should have a 'core set' before acquiring other good players via trade or UFA is absolutely moronic. Yeah, I believe that 1000%.

Those guys are not hard to find. There’s UFAs to sign every year or to trade for when it’s time.

So what i understand is i guess let’s acquire many ‘’good’’ players to be a bubble team as quick as possible because players in the draft ‘’might’’ not develop like those players already in the league?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Those guys are not hard to find. There’s UFAs to sign every year or to trade for when it’s time.

So what i understand is i guess let’s acquire many ‘’good’’ players to be a bubble team as quick as possible because players in the draft ‘’might’’ not develop like those players already in the league?

If you think Dubois alone takes us from where we are to bubble team, that would pretty much make him a franchise player/superstar. I didn't realize that guys like Dubois were UFAs every year or often available. Let alone that we're not alone in the league. You compete with other teams to acquire them. In this situation, we have one who seems in love with the idea of playing here. And we're going to say no? Why? For Da tAnK? At this point, some of you guys sound like Therrien and Bergevin with grind deez guys and da foxhole.

Read the thread. What are you the burner account for him? Would make sense.

You made the claim. Why would I do the work for you? I did read the thread and can tell you're wrong and dishonest. I'd say be a man and own up to it, but that would require honesty, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Those guys are not hard to find. There’s UFAs to sign every year or to trade for when it’s time.

So what i understand is i guess let’s acquire many ‘’good’’ players to be a bubble team as quick as possible because players in the draft ‘’might’’ not develop like those players already in the league?

6'2 200lbs centers that can produce 60+ pts and are young (~25) are definitely not easy to find and acquire.

 

[WeThreeKings]

6'2 200lbs centers that can produce 60+ pts and are young (~25) are definitely not easy to find and acquire.

Almost impossible.

Also I'm totally here for Hughes acquiring two top 6 centers in 2 years after a decade of Bergevin telling us it isn't playstation and good centers aren't available.

 

[MXD]

You trade for Dubois if you can sign him for a few millions less (on total contract) than what you'd sign him for as a UFA.