Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

“Would you rather that the Habs trade for Dubois or instead wait and try to sign him when he becomes


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TomKosto

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Well, unfortunately for them.. there won't be a bunch of teams bidding and Montreal isn't desperate for someone to come in and help them get into the play-offs.



They don't need to give up a quality asset like that. Winnipeg has no leverage here.

They can pick from the Kapanen pool of B prospects, but they aren't getting one of our top prospects.. that means Guhle, Barron, Slaf, Mesar, Farrell, Kidney, Roy, Engstrom, Mailloux, and Beck are all off the table.

They'll get a play-off team first, they'll get a roster player like Dvorak they can use or sell, and someone like Kapanen as I mentioned.

If they want anything more than that, OK, we will see Dubois in a year.. have fun trying to get anything close to that from a team using him as a rental.
I have a hard time seing Dubois traded here without 1st Florida, Beck, Mesar, Farrell, Kidney, Roy, Engstrom, Mailloux or Barron going the other way....not really realistic. It would be awesome, but not happening.
 
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FF de Mars

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I don't think Hughes gonna employ the offersheet, considering the fiasco we had after the KK offersheet. Not the best way to have good relationship with others clubs, they keep that in mind.

I still want to wait for UFA, and I don't think it's worth the trouble, but it might decrease his value?
 

TomKosto

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I still want to wait for UFA, and I don't think it's worth the trouble, but it might decrease his value?
There's always a chance he's getting traded to a team like Boston (if Bergeron doesn't come back) and he fall in love with playing with Pasta and Marchand. I mean, a lot of scenario for speculation. Colorado can be a place too. A lot can change, last year Gaudreau change his mind last second and chose Clbs after being link to Philly for almost 2years.

I would wait too, question to maximize our assets. But I have a feeling Gorton sold a quick retool to Molson. He went after Dach last year instead of keeping the 13th pick overall. I would not be surprise to see the Florida pick with a player like Dvorak and a small prospect going the other way.
 

FF de Mars

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Why are people terrified of trading FLA's 1st for him but willing to offer sheet with our own 2024 1st?

I think it's because they think the Habs will compete next year especially with Dubois onboard, and also because the 2023 draft has been hyped.

There's always a chance he's getting traded to a team like Boston (if Bergeron doesn't come back) and he fall in love with playing with Pasta and Marchand. I mean, a lot of scenario for speculation. Colorado can be a place too. A lot can change, last year Gaudreau change his mind last second and chose Clbs after being link to Philly for almost 2years.

I would wait too, question to maximize our assets. But I have a feeling Gorton sold a quick retool to Molson. He went after Dach last year instead of keeping the 13th pick overall. I would not be surprise to see the Florida pick with a player like Dvorak and a small prospect going the other way.

I'd still wait but I see your reasoning. Last night Brière was on RDS during the intermission and he said he wanted to "reconnect" with the Philly fan base... in other words retool and not rebuild it seemed to me. Maybe owners aren't as patient as we are.
 

Canadienna

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I think it's because those persons think the Habs will compete next year especially with Dubois onboard, and also because the 2023 draft has been hyped.

Even in a best case scenario the picks would be pretty comparable. The FLA pick will be around ~15. The 2024 MTL pick might be around there, but it might be in the top 10 as well.

If I'm the Jets I'd rather have MTLs unprotected 2024 1st than FLA's 2023 1st.
 
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nhlfan9191

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How dare you. :badidea: :laugh:
The reason I felt the need to put heavy emphasis on “in my opinion” is because I didn’t know if I would get blasted into the sun for going against the popular believe in the thread. Lol Everyone’s been pretty respectful, even the ones who disagree however.
 
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WeThreeKings

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I have a hard time seing Dubois traded here without 1st Florida, Beck, Mesar, Farrell, Kidney, Roy, Engstrom, Mailloux or Barron going the other way....not really realistic. It would be awesome, but not happening.

I know people have a hard time with this.. but I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

Trouba was in the -same- position, with the -same- franchise.
The deal was concluded by Cheveldayoff and Jeff Gorton.

In the Trouba deal, they did not get anything close to the Florida pick.. or anything close to resembling Beck etc.

The Jets should consider themselves BEYOND lucky if Hughes moves the Florida pick in a Dubois trade when he can sit there and wait and have him in a year's time, where we aren't competing next year.
 

FF de Mars

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Even in a best case scenario the picks would be pretty comparable. The FLA pick will be around ~15. The 2024 MTL pick might be around there, but it might be in the top 10 as well.

If I'm the Jets I'd rather have MTLs unprotected 2024 1st than FLA's 2023 1st.

If I'm the Jets I'd rather Florida's because of the extra year of development and because "un tiens vaut mieux que deux tu auras"; unless they think the Habs will tank next year, which is not that obvious, McCagg said on Marinaro last night that he didn't agree with Lebrun who stated the Habs will land bottom 10, he said he's just protecting his brand saying that, just in case.
 
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salbutera

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I know people have a hard time with this.. but I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

Trouba was in the -same- position, with the -same- franchise.
The deal was concluded by Cheveldayoff and Jeff Gorton.

In the Trouba deal, they did not get anything close to the Florida pick.. or anything close to resembling Beck etc.

The Jets should consider themselves BEYOND lucky if Hughes moves the Florida pick in a Dubois trade when he can sit there and wait and have him in a year's time, where we aren't competing next year.
They did in Pionk but as I posted earlier, Trouba had not limited his end destination to 1-team, thus allowing Chevaldayoff to have some leverage power.

If PLD has only limited to one destination, Chevy has NO leverage whatsoever and no other GM will offer up anything of value, knowing they have a disgruntled rental
 
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ReHabs

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I am quite sure that Hughes won't go the offer sheet regardless, so it's a moot point.

Meier is a comparable trade except Florida's 1st is going to better than NJD 1st. That's the only starting point we should take.

Horvat went for a mid-1st, an early 2nd round prospect, and a cap dump. Meier went for a late 1st, a late 1st round prospect, a young player, another prospect, and conditional picks.

An equivalent trade would be Florida's 1st, Beck or Mesar, Ylonen, and Armia as a cap move.

That's it. No way should we be sending the moon to Winnipeg for freaking PLD, certainly not a potential lottery pick.
I don’t disagree. I like the Kevin Fiala trade for both sides. That would be the shape of my proposal.

But I would do an offersheet too, it’s a power move and I’m not scared of offersheets like others are. We lost KK to one because Bergevin was a genuinely bad person and an even worse manager.
 

TomKosto

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I know people have a hard time with this.. but I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

Trouba was in the -same- position, with the -same- franchise.
The deal was concluded by Cheveldayoff and Jeff Gorton.

In the Trouba deal, they did not get anything close to the Florida pick.. or anything close to resembling Beck etc.

The Jets should consider themselves BEYOND lucky if Hughes moves the Florida pick in a Dubois trade when he can sit there and wait and have him in a year's time, where we aren't competing next year.
Well they received a 20th pick overall (and Pionk) for Trouba... We can argue all day, but it's pretty much the value (or more) than Engmstrom, Farrel, Mesar, Beck, Barron etc. Not all of them are going to pan out anyway.

We all have our opinion on prospects, but it's pretty weird not wanting to give Owen Beck or Filip Mesar, after the year they had, for a Pierre-Luc Dubois.
 

Catanddogguitarrr

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If the Jets miss the playoffs, they will not only feel more pressure to trade PLD, but maybe other assets too. I wonder if we could extend the deal and try to get Hellebuyck. It’s certainly something I would push for if the Habs are fortunate enough to win the lottery. Bedard, PLD and Hellebuyck and this team could definitely make the playoffs and be extremely fun to watch.
Stop it's too much dreaming, lol. You start with Bedard (a lottery winner), then PLD witch 60% people here don't want and then Hellebuyck that could be part of a deal with jets in your idea that Jets will trow everything by the window and start from scratch. Let's start by who we will get in the draft, then try to make a deal to acquire Dubois. And Hellebuyck I'm okay with him. But Montembeault is really getting better and better.
 

jaffy27

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I know people have a hard time with this.. but I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

Trouba was in the -same- position, with the -same- franchise.
The deal was concluded by Cheveldayoff and Jeff Gorton.

In the Trouba deal, they did not get anything close to the Florida pick.. or anything close to resembling Beck etc.

The Jets should consider themselves BEYOND lucky if Hughes moves the Florida pick in a Dubois trade when he can sit there and wait and have him in a year's time, where we aren't competing next year.
Ya…..the Florida pick is OUT of the question in any circumstance.

A lottery protected pick in 24 which would then turn into a 24 second rounder and the lower of our two 2025 1st rounders makes more sense if it came to another non playoff year next season
 
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WeThreeKings

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Well they received a 20th pick overall (and Pionk) for Trouba... We can argue all day, but it's pretty much the value (or more) than Engmstrom, Farrel, Mesar, Beck, Barron etc. Not all of them are going to pan out anyway.

We all have our opinion on prospects, but it's pretty weird not wanting to give Owen Beck or Filip Mesar, after the year they had, for a Pierre-Luc Dubois.

Because unlike other people, I don't throw out upside and a large portions of really good things over the year to focus on the small pockets that weren't good and declare a player a bust.

It's pretty weird to want to give up more than any other team has in this exact same position, just because?

The equivalent of the Trouba deal is the Calgary pick and Dvorak. That's basically it. A play-off team 1st and a young-ish player at the same position of the player being traded away.

If we give up a non-playoff first (Florida), then the plus becomes smaller because the value of prospect/player they will get in the draft is higher.
 
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TomKosto

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Because unlike other people, I don't throw out upside and a large portions of really good things over the year to focus on the small pockets that weren't good and declare a player a bust.

It's pretty weird to want to give up more than any other team has in this exact same position, just because?

The equivalent of the Trouba deal is the Calgary pick and Dvorak. That's basically it. A play-off team 1st and a young-ish player at the same position of the player being traded away.

If we give up a non-playoff first (Florida), then the plus becomes smaller because the value of prospect/player they will get in the draft is higher.
Never said Mesar and Beck are bust because of a bad year. What I'm saying is, it's f***ing weird not wanting to trade any of those 2 for a young big center like Dubois. When you take in account that they didn't had the greatest year (not saying they will bust), it's even weirder.

Anyway we can go all day, I will be first to be happy if Christmas comes in june and we acquired Dubois without giving one of Mailloux, Fla1st, Beck,Mesar, Farrell and Engstrom.
 

salbutera

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Because unlike other people, I don't throw out upside and a large portions of really good things over the year to focus on the small pockets that weren't good and declare a player a bust.

It's pretty weird to want to give up more than any other team has in this exact same position, just because?

The equivalent of the Trouba deal is the Calgary pick and Dvorak. That's basically it. A play-off team 1st and a young-ish player at the same position of the player being traded away.

If we give up a non-playoff first (Florida), then the plus becomes smaller because the value of prospect/player they will get in the draft is higher.
No the equivalent (even though there’s no such thing) would be a 20s pick + Harris but that was only because other team was in the mix for Trouba.

It’s even less of a return for PLD, if we are to believe the talking heads, there’s no other team he’d go to.
 

WeThreeKings

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Never said Mesar and Beck are bust because of a bad year. What I'm saying is, it's f***ing weird not wanting to trade any of those 2 for a young big center like Dubois. When you take in account that they didn't had the greatest year (not saying they will bust), it's even weirder.

Because there's no precedent for it.

Why are we the ones, to finally, be the ones paying the best prospect and draft capital out of every other RFA in the same position?

It makes no sense.

Dubois wants to be here. It's one of the worst kept secrets in the NHL. Kypreos said it's 100%, Freidman says its 95%. Winnipeg has no leverage. Hughes is a skilled negotiator as we've seen.

You don't get very far in a value driven league giving away value just because. The market on these trades have been set and with the fact that Dubois is ending up here sooner, rather than later, paying a larger acquisition cost than anyone else in the same situation is just asinine and irresponsible. I don't get why anyone would advocate for that.
 
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TomKosto

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Because there's no precedent for it.

Why are we the ones, to finally, be the ones paying the best prospect and draft capital out of every other RFA in the same position?

It makes no sense.

Dubois wants to be here. It's one of the worst kept secrets in the NHL. Kypreos said it's 100%, Freidman says its 95%. Winnipeg has no leverage. Hughes is a skilled negotiator as we've seen.

You don't get very far in a value driven league giving away value just because. The market on these trades have been set and with the fact that Dubois is ending up here sooner, rather than later, paying a larger acquisition cost than anyone else in the same situation is just asinine and irresponsible. I don't get why anyone would advocate for that.
Why can't he be traded to a team like Boston, let's say Bergeron retire this summer? A team can still pay more than Kapanen and a 2025first rounder, we see that kind of deal every year at the deadline, Chiarot being one example. Now they can have Dubois for a year. Chevy isn't going to accept a deal that makes him look like a rookie DG.. He can always keep Dubois as his own rental if our offer is so low.
 
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