Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[Hoek]

I think the case is only if you're talking about value to the Lightning and their roster structure.

 

[Nasti]

If scoring goals is the most important thing and the definitive way of determining greatness, then Luc Robitaille was the second best left winger in NHL history. So simple.

 

[wetcoast]

No doubt Ovechkin is not a "good Canadian boy."

Ovechkin's placement on those boards has literally zero to do with his nationality and your continued insistence to bring up this false narrative isn't even amusing it's cringe worthy and makes it hard for people to take you seriously when you put out stuff like that.

Many Canadian media members have no problem in voting for Ovechkin in post season awards but the hypocrisy that your post dictates is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Let's look at all the awards the North american media has given him and then say there is a "good old Canadian boy" bias against Ovechkin?

WTF is the best term to describe the pretzel you have twisted yourself in here.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin is a first-ballot Hall-of-famer and arguably the greatest goal-scorer the NHL has ever seen.

As good as he’s been the past several seasons (when he’s been healthy enough to play), Kucherov isn’t even a PPG player in the NHL over his whole career.

It’s not even remotely close between the two as far as careers go.

Kucherov has 675 points in 575 regular season games and 154 points in 136 playoff games but maybe you were thinking of Ovi not being a PPG player in the playoffs with 141 points in 147 playoff games?

 

[wetcoast]

This thread really shows you how long Ovi has been dominating. He’s like 9 months removed from Hart conversations, 18 months removed from a Rocket, and still some people clearly can’t remember what his peak looked like.

He is 9 months away from the hypothetical half season Hart, he wasn't a serious candidate for the hart in the 20-21 season and even his biggest supporters know this to be true.

I remember his peak and that's the biggest reason Kucherov is 99.5 % unlucky to reach Ovi.

 

[Fantomas]

If scoring goals is the most important thing and the definitive way of determining greatness, then Luc Robitaille was the second best left winger in NHL history. So simple.

Is he even the second best scoring left winger in history? Luc never led the NHL in scoring, not even once.

 

[Neutrinos]

Did Ovechkin have the better peak though?

Ovechkin '06 - '10
269 goals, 529 points in 396 games
1.34 PPG or 110 points per 82 games


Kucherov '18 - '23
144 goals, 403 points in 290 games
1.39 PPG or 114 points per 82 games


Now factor in their ice time

Ovechkin '06 - '10
529 points in 8786 minutes
1,2 points per 20 minutes
99 points per 82 games at 20 minutes per game

Kucherov '18 - '23
403 points in 5733 minutes
1,4 points per 20 minutes
115 points per 82 games at 20 minutes per game


It should be noted that the league scoring average may have been notably different between their respective peaks

 

[Nasti]

Is he even the second best scoring left winger in history? Luc never led the NHL in scoring, not even once.

Luc was number one in goals and points until OV passed him.

 

[Duder54]

Kucherov has 675 points in 575 regular season games and 154 points in 136 playoff games but maybe you were thinking of Ovi not being a PPG player in the playoffs with 141 points in 147 playoff games?

You’re absolutely right. I must have looked up Kucherov’s stats pre-coffee, because I read them exactly backwards.

 

[Fantomas]

Luc was number one in goals and points until OV passed him.

View attachment 606427

So what? He played many years and in the highest scoring era in NHL history, so his cumulative numbers are just inflated.

Never once led the league in scoring. Hull did I think seven times, Ovechkin nine times.

 

[Kennedys]

Can we have a Gretzky vs Kucherov thread ? That's missing

 

[Nasti]

So what? He played many years and in the highest scoring era in NHL history, so his cumulative numbers are just inflated.

Never once led the league in scoring. Hull did I think seven times, Ovechkin nine times.

You clearly missed my point. People on here are stating that Ovechkin belongs on hockey’s Mt Rushmore if he breaks the goal record. One stat catapults him in their eyes. Then they double downed by saying scoring goals is the most important thing in hockey. If all that were true, then you’d have to conclude that Robitaille is the second best left winger, which he isn’t, simply because he’s number two on the stat sheet. Stats by themselves don’t mean anything, especially in hockey. I’ll go back to my original point. Ovechkin doesn’t belong anywhere near hockey’s Mt Rushmore. Record or no record.

 

[Fantomas]

You clearly missed my point. People on here are stating that Ovechkin belongs on hockey’s Mt Rushmore if he breaks the goal record. One stat catapults him in their eyes. Then they double downed by saying scoring goals is the most important thing in hockey. If all that were true, then you’d have to conclude that Robitaille is the second best left winger, which he isn’t, simply because he’s number two on the stat sheet. Stats by themselves don’t mean anything, especially in hockey. I’ll go back to my original point. Ovechkin doesn’t belong anywhere near hockey’s Mt Rushmore. Record or no record.

I don't agree with that premise, but your premise doesn't make sense either because Robitaille isn't the second best left winger at scoring goals - as I've said.

 

[Panthaz89]

Ovechkin's obviously had a much better prime.....though I think Kucherov would slip into the top 100 somewhere when he's done OV is going to go down in the top 10 of all time. At least Kucherov has had one comparable to season to OV's best when he put up 128 so he's an amazing player but he's pretty far from OV still.

 

[Toby91ca]

If scoring goals is the most important thing and the definitive way of determining greatness, then Luc Robitaille was the second best left winger in NHL history. So simple.

Well....scoring goals is more important for a winger than a center.....

EDIT: I'm not sure if anyone has said it yet, but generally speaking, the best goal scorer on the team is more often than not, NOT the best player on the team.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Can we have a Gretzky vs Kucherov thread ? That's missing

Over in the history forum there is a highly respected regular who claims Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin.

Another history forum regular claims Crosby could have scored as many goals as Ovie, but simply chose not to.

Another guy over there claims Ovechkin would have been the 8th greatest player on the 1956 Canadiens.

And a whole gaggle of them claimed Ovechkin is a "shoot-only" player despite him being top 10 in assists over his career, top 4 in hits, and #1 in goals by an enormous margin.

[mod]

 

[jigglysquishy]

Did Ovechkin have the better peak though?

Ovechkin '06 - '10
269 goals, 529 points in 396 games
1.34 PPG or 110 points per 82 games


Kucherov '18 - '23
144 goals, 403 points in 290 games
1.39 PPG or 114 points per 82 games


Now factor in their ice time

Ovechkin '06 - '10
529 points in 8786 minutes
1,2 points per 20 minutes
99 points per 82 games at 20 minutes per game

Kucherov '18 - '23
403 points in 5733 minutes
1,4 points per 20 minutes
115 points per 82 games at 20 minutes per game


It should be noted that the league scoring average may have been notably different between their respective peaks

This is a great example of missing the forest for the trees.

Ovechkin 3peated the Pearson, had Hart voting of 1, 1, 2, and lead the league in points per game all three years.

That sustained level of play was never even approached by Kucherov.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin's obviously had a much better prime.....though I think Kucherov would slip into the top 100 somewhere when he's done OV is going to go down in the top 10 of all time. At least Kucherov has had one comparable to season to OV's best when he put up 128 so he's an amazing player but he's pretty far from OV still.

Thing is, Ovechkin scored 65 goals on a lottery team that had zero chance of making the playoffs without him. Kucherov was playing for arguably the most stacked team post lockout.

 

[wetcoast]

You’re absolutely right. I must have looked up Kucherov’s stats pre-coffee, because I read them exactly backwards.

Fair enough it happens.

 

[PaulD]

Simple question. Is there a case to be made that Nikita Kucherov is the overall better player than Alex Ovechkin? We're talking about career up until Kuchverov's age (29) and projection until they both retire. Will Kucherov be looked on as the better player between the two once they are both out of the league?

Points in favor of Kuch:

Insane Hockey IQ
Better playoffs production
Multiple cups and finals appearances

Points for ovechking:

The GOATscorer potentially.
Better peak.
Better name recognition/flashier player

OV way more physical powerful intimidating and harder to play against.
Close in value ....I pick OV over Kuch on my team all day long.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Nah

 

[filinski77]

Did Ovechkin have the better peak though?

Ovechkin '06 - '10
269 goals, 529 points in 396 games
1.34 PPG or 110 points per 82 games


Kucherov '18 - '23
144 goals, 403 points in 290 games
1.39 PPG or 114 points per 82 games


Now factor in their ice time

Ovechkin '06 - '10
529 points in 8786 minutes
1,2 points per 20 minutes
99 points per 82 games at 20 minutes per game

Kucherov '18 - '23
403 points in 5733 minutes
1,4 points per 20 minutes
115 points per 82 games at 20 minutes per game


It should be noted that the league scoring average may have been notably different between their respective peaks

I addressed this in a post a couple pages back. Ovechkin was just as dominant from a point perspective relative to the rest of the league, but dominated the league in goals as well (by some of the best all-time margins). Whereas Kucherov was far away from the best goal scorer in the league.

Factor in the difference in teammates, and it makes that gap even larger.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I have OV slightly ahead of Crosby because of his ridiculous peak and goalscoring longevity.
OV's first 5 seasons were absolutely ridiculous.



Kucherov is nowhere near Crosby or OV.

 

[Panthaz89]

Thing is, Ovechkin scored 65 goals on a lottery team that had zero chance of making the playoffs without him. Kucherov was playing for arguably the most stacked team post lockout.

You act like everyone that year was putting up a ton of points when only 3 players broke 110 and Kane was 3rd exactly with 110 while it was a higher scoring year than the former 128 was an outlier and good enough to be 12 points ahead of the next guy which was McDavid he also did this with less than 20 mins average TOI due to being on a stacked team and the Lightning were basically resting their guys near the end of the season.

 

[Toby91ca]

You act like everyone that year was putting up a ton of points when only 3 players broke 110 and Kane was 3rd exactly with 110 while it was a higher scoring year than the former 128 was an outlier and good enough to be 12 points ahead of the next guy which was McDavid he also did this with less than 20 mins average TOI due to being on a stacked team and the Lightning were basically resting their guys near the end of the season.

I tend to stay away from the playing on a better team argument vs playing a very bad team. There are good arguments on both sides as to why your production would be boosted.