Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[Nasti]

If he does break the record, of course he does

No he doesn’t. There‘s more to hockey than scoring goals. He’s not even the best player of his era.

 

[Mrb1p]

That's probably the worst description of peak Ovi I've ever heard.

6'3: check
Highlight reel machine: check
Big ass dude: check
Fast as lightning: Check.

Whats the problem?

"Objectively"

How do you go about to measure "Hockey skills IQ etc" objectively then?

I take Ovechkin everytime and I think that people here are downplaying Kucherov's skills, but its pretty tough to objectively say one is better than the other.

Its not about downplaying Kuchs skills, he is by far one of the most talented player this league as seen ever.

Its just that Ovechkin has a case for the most talented player ever.

 

[North Cole]

Peak vs Peak

At their best, Kucherov was a better playing than AO. 2018-2019 is way better than any AO's best season.

Some people will get salty over it but it is what it is. Kucherov is a much much much better playoff performer too.

His 2018-20 was not better than OV's 07-09.

 

[LightningStorm]

No chance for Kucherov. I do think that Kucherov is a better player than post-2010s Ovechkin, but early career Ovechkin was a better player than Kucherov has ever been.

This. Ovechkin's 2008-2010 peak was definitely the best of either player. Like you I'm not the biggest fan of post 2010 in an all time sense. But I think Kucherov missing a lot of time since his great 2019 season limited how much he was able to close the gap, in addition to not starting as fast as Ovechkin at the start of his career.

This is definitely Ovechkin, but not being as high as an all time great as Ovechkin is ok and not a mark against Kucherov.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Kucherov to McDavid is what Kane was to Crosby and Ovechkin (and to Malkin had he stayed healthy). Right after the best player, probably #2.

 

[JackSlater]

This. Ovechkin's 2008-2010 peak was definitely the best of either player. Like you I'm not the biggest fan of post 2010 in an all time sense. But I think Kucherov missing a lot of time since his great 2019 season limited how much he was able to close the gap, in addition to not starting as fast as Ovechkin at the start of his career.

This is definitely Ovechkin, but not being as high as an all time great as Ovechkin is ok and not a mark against Kucherov.

Ovechkin is a credible top ten player of all time, probably top 15 at lowest. Kucherov isn't touching that and it isn't an insult by any stretch.

 

[Neil Racki]

No he doesn’t. There‘s more to hockey than scoring goals. He’s not even the best player of his era.

Ehhhh ... I mean there are more lesser important things but scoring goals is the most important thing.

Thats the whole point of the sport. Put the puck in net.

There are a lot of objectives in raising a kid but keeping them alive is objective one. Then there are others like make sure they dont grow up to litter, keep them off the pole but keeping them alive is numero uno.

Scoring goals is numero uno in hockey.

(but I get your point)

 

[Nasti]

Ehhhh ... I mean there are more lesser important things but scoring goals is the most important thing.

Thats the whole point of the sport. Put the puck in net.

There are a lot of objectives in raising a kid but keeping them alive is objective one. Then there are others like make sure they dont grow up to litter, keep them off the pole but keeping them alive is numero uno.

Scoring goals is numero uno in hockey.

(but I get your point)

Wrong. Preventing goals and setting up goals are just as important.

 

[AvroArrow]

Is this a joke ?

 

[nothingbeatshockey]

If one can start a credible thread with two of his teammates: "Is There a Case for Stamkos > Kucherov?" or "Is there a case for Hedman> Kucherov?" then the answer to the original question is "No".

 

[nowhereman]

There is no case whatsoever. When his career is over, Kucherov might be knocking on the door of the Top 100. Ovechkin will have a solid case for top 10.

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Ovechkin has played 70+ games 15 times.

He’s played 77+ (Or a full shortened season) 14 times.

So no.

Availability is a skill.

 

[abo9]

6'3: check
Highlight reel machine: check
Big ass dude: check
Fast as lightning: Check.

Whats the problem?


Its not about downplaying Kuchs skills, he is by far one of the most talented player this league as seen ever.

Its just that Ovechkin has a case for the most talented player ever.

Ok yes I completely forgot to include in my earlier response... my vote is in Ovechkin's camp, as I value goalscoring pretty high, and that's ignoring all the other aspects of Ovechkin's game now and at his peak (and he was an animal during his peak).

It's mostly the "objectively" comment I was rebutting... as there's just not one metric to "objectively" evaluate players. One could use a collection of accepted metrics, but I assume that Ovechkin would come out on top for most of them

 

[moropanov]

"Objectively"

How do you go about to measure "Hockey skills IQ etc" objectively then?

I take Ovechkin everytime and I think that people here are downplaying Kucherov's skills, but its pretty tough to objectively say one is better than the other.

Ovexhkin has not good hands or hockey IQ he is worse in those skills than lets say random KHL player on average. Seeing him play at international level he's average play is worse than World championship level average player= makes average Wch team worse so i guess you could argue he is not world championship level player if you exclude team's like Italy Great britain etc.

 

[abo9]

Ovexhkin has not good hands or hockey IQ he is worse in those skills than lets say random KHL player on average. Seeing him play at international level he's average play is worse than World championship level average player= makes average Wch team worse so i guess you could argue he is not world championship level player if you exclude team's like Italy Great britain etc.

Ahhhh you're trolling gotcha. Unless you're exclusively looking at "now" but Ovechkin has off-the-charts hockey IQ as well

From the OP: "We're talking about career up until Kuchverov's age (29) and projection until they both retire."

I'm not sure about today, but Ovechkin had pretty great hands in his prime... plenty of highlight goals to look at.

 

[moropanov]

Ahhhh you're trolling gotcha. Unless you're exclusively looking at "now" but Ovechkin has off-the-charts hockey IQ as well

From the OP: "We're talking about career up until Kuchverov's age (29) and projection until they both retire."

I'm not sure about today, but Ovechkin had pretty great hands in his prime... plenty of highlight goals to look at.

Some highlights yea but in consistent shift by shift basics not very skilled in stickhandling/puck controll but yea as young not bad hands bad just compared to top level player's. IQ then again usually ruine'd Russians tournament's by playing like raging bull not seeing around much.

 

[JPeeper]

No he doesn’t. There‘s more to hockey than scoring goals. He’s not even the best player of his era.

Debatable, he has more Hart Trophies than his contemporaries, has 2 Lindsay's, he has 9 Rockets, in total trophies won he slays his competitors.

And he absolutely has a case to be on hockey Mount Rushmore, he's going to break the goal record in this era against these goalies. You put Ovy in the 80's and he's putting up Lemieux junior numbers.

 

[GreatSaveEssensa]

No he doesn’t. There‘s more to hockey than scoring goals. He’s not even the best player of his era.

Scoring goals is the entire point of hockey from an offensive perspective. Preventing goals is the entire point on the defensive side. Everything else in between is done to strive for one of those two end goals. Being the best goal scorer in hockey history puts that person in the conversation for one of the best all time players ever. Period.

 

[abo9]

Some highlights yea but in consistent shift by shift basics not very skilled in stickhandling/puck controll but yea as young not bad hands bad just compared to top level player's. IQ then again usually ruine'd Russians tournament's by playing like raging bull not seeing around much.

No hockey IQ, no skills with the pucl, Shooting percentage is nit eye popping, yet he consistently shoots more than anyone and is consistently at the top of the goalscoring charts... how does he do it?

What differentiate Ovechkin from any run of the mill player then? Why do no other player shoot as much as he do, why dont they score as much as he does? Doesnt take much IQ or puck skills according to what you imply

 

[authentic]

6'3: check
Highlight reel machine: check
Big ass dude: check
Fast as lightning: Check.

Whats the problem?


Its not about downplaying Kuchs skills, he is by far one of the most talented player this league as seen ever.

Its just that Ovechkin has a case for the most talented player ever.

I thought you were going to say best goal scorer. How is he the most talented player ever?

 

[McRpro]

Sure, there's a case. A mental case.

 

[Nasti]

Debatable, he has more Hart Trophies than his contemporaries, has 2 Lindsay's, he has 9 Rockets, in total trophies won he slays his competitors.

And he absolutely has a case to be on hockey Mount Rushmore, he's going to break the goal record in this era against these goalies. You put Ovy in the 80's and he's putting up Lemieux junior numbers.

Put OV in the 80’s and he’d have 80’s training and a wooden stick. He’s not even better than Jagr, let alone belonging on a pedestal with Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr. One of those things is not like the others.

Scoring goals is the entire point of hockey from an offensive perspective. Preventing goals is the entire point on the defensive side. Everything else in between is done to strive for one of those two end goals. Being the best goal scorer in hockey history puts that person in the conversation for one of the best all time players ever. Period.

“One of the best all time players” could mean he’s top 50. I don’t argue that. He’s just not top 4 or anywhere close to it.

 

[moropanov]

Scoring goals is the entire point of hockey from an offensive perspective. Preventing goals is the entire point on the defensive side. Everything else in between is done to strive for one of those two end goals. Being the best goal scorer in hockey history puts that person in the conversation for one of the best all time players ever. Period.

Not really.. Scoring much goals doesnt necessarily mean you are good at hockey its game and and even grandma can score if given enough changes.. Its totally different than lets say running fast etc kind of absolute measurement's. Even at beer league level's there's players who are team's best goal scorer's but in overall usefullnes worse than average Ovechkin is that kind of gatecory for most of his career. Real stars like Mcdavid or Datsyuk Jagr etc you can see theyr greatness but Ovexhkin when you watch him play you think mostly how can this guy get goals and at international level his stats are bad when he isnt so absurdly stats boosted by team stragedy not being to pad his goal totals.. Players like Afinogenov or Morozov Zaripov werent by any means worse than Ovechkin on average.

 

[GreatSaveEssensa]

Not really.. Scoring much goals doesnt necessarily mean you are good at hockey its game and and even grandma can score if given enough changes.. Its totally different than lets say running fast etc kind of absolute measurement's. Even at beer league level's there's players who are team's best goal scorer's but in overall usefullnes worse than average Ovechkin is that kind of gatecory for most of his career. Real stars like Mcdavid or Datsyuk Jagr etc you can see theyr greatness but Ovexhkin when you watch him play you think mostly how can this guy get goals and at international level his stats are bad when he isnt so absurdly stats boosted by team stragedy not being to pad his goal totals.. Players like Afinogenov or Morozov Zaripov werent by any means worse than Ovechkin on average.

This just may be the stupidest post I have ever read on here. Congrats as thats’s quite the accomplishment.

 

[User9992]

Ovi never had a stacked team like Kuch had: Vasilevsky, Hedman, Stamkos, Point, McDonaugh & stacked roster overall.