Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[Hockey Outsider]

Regarding the comments about Ovechkin's shooting percentage:

In the NHL, the correlation between a team's shooting percentage and its win percentage is (in most seasons) quite low. The majority of the time, the correlation is stronger when we're looking at the number of shots a team generates.

Correlation doesn't prove causation, of course. But this provides some statistical evidence that generating shots is more important than shot accuracy. (And, of course, Ovechkin is one of the greatest players ever in terms of generating shots on goal).

(The other comment to make is, the range in shots taken is much wider in the NHL compared to the NBA. In basketball, generally speaking, teams trade possessions, at least to a much greater extent than we see in hockey. The spread between the NBA team with the most and least shots (FGA) in 2023 was about 11%. In the NHL, the spread in SOG was 43%. Similar patterns exist in most other seasons. Shooting percentage is very important in basketball because it's difficult, over the course of an entire season, to significantly outshoot your opponent. That isn't true in hockey, because the game is much more dynamic. In hockey, you can still beat your opponent through volume rather than efficiency. That's much more difficult in basketball - which suggests that shooting percentage should carry much less weight when evaluating a hockey player rather than a basketball player).

 

[Nemesis Prime]

lmao

 

[blundluntman]

He's a better playmaker but that's about it. Ovi in 08 was a force of nature and had one of the greatest goalscoring seasons of all time

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Kuch’s thoughts on this:

 

[Plural]

Ovechkin has obviously had the better career, and will go down as the superior player. You could argue Kucherov has been better in the playoffs and has the best single season between the two though.

Absolutely 0 chance Kuch has the better season. It's not that long a go, people should remember that 07 season. Ovechkin was a f***ing truck. He's a douche and I hate him for being Putins lapdog. Screw him. But that season, where he scored 65 goals, that's probably the best individual season of hockey since mid-90's Mario.

 

[Plural]

People don't wanna hear it, but you take the playoff warrior every single time.

Unless you're into the business side and wanna sell tickets and merch. Then you go with Ovi. But other than that, and regular season stuff that doesn't matter, it's clearly Kucherov.

I will never understand people's obsession with the regular season. It's 82 games long and insanely intense. No teams play properly, it's open ended pond hockey, because there's just too many games to keep up that level of intensity.

Playoffs is when teams start playing the game properly. And when hockey is being played at that highest level, Kuch has proven he's better than Ovi.

Unless we are talking Ovi in his first 2 seasons. You always take that guy. He was like Lindros.

Yeah, so take the guy with CS?

 

[GMR]

If you only compare their playoff numbers, yes.

It doesn’t work that way though.

 

[MoeBartoli]

To say Kucherov is better is simply people making a style presence - liking his all around game. Once you get past that, there’s no question Ovi is a greater play. The hardware comparison - well, there‘s no comparison…..Ovi is a first ballot HOF lock. Kucherov will be enshrined, but he’s no first ballot lock. Kucherov is an elite player. Ovi is one of the all-time greats.

 

[WF19]

Simple question. Is there a case to be made that Nikita Kucherov is the overall better player than Alex Ovechkin? We're talking about career up until Kuchverov's age (29) and projection until they both retire. Will Kucherov be looked on as the better player between the two once they are both out of the league?

Points in favor of Kuch:

Insane Hockey IQ
Better playoffs production
Multiple cups and finals appearances

Points for ovechking:

The GOATscorer potentially.
Better peak.
Better name recognition/flashier player

Wether or not he breaks Gretzkys record for goals all time, I'm sure there is an argument for him already being the GOAT goalscorer. Wayne himself has said the game is different now and that when he entered the league goalies barely even went down. Can you imagine OV taking a clapper from the circle in the 80's? I'm not even an Ovi fan and for the last few years I'd think he would of slowed down but that really hasn't been the case. Long story short Kuch is a hell of a player for sure but as far as goal scoring it won't even end up remotely close.

 

[SomeDude]

A very bad one, I suppose.

 

[PensandCaps]

People really underrating Kucherov's past 4 years. Peak to peak, its basically even, with Kucherov's playoff stats being vastly better.

Considering Ovi fell off hard after 2010 point wise, won't be hard for 30+ Kucherov to outperform Ovi's 2nd half career.

 

[archangel2]

Kuch isn't even the best player on his team

People really underrating Kucherov's past 4 years. Peak to peak, its basically even, with Kucherov's playoff stats being vastly better.

Considering Ovi fell off hard after 2010 point wise, won't be hard for 30+ Kucherov to outperform Ovi's 2nd half career.

How many sacked teams did Ovi play on

 

[PensandCaps]

Kuch isn't even the best player on his team


How many sacked teams did Ovi play on

Are we doing revisionist history here? The Caps were consistently challenging for the President's trophy and had some very stacked offensive teams.

How is Kucherov not the best player on his team? Far and away the teams PPG leader in the regular and post season over the past 5 years.

 

[KevinRedkey]

He has no case for hockey‘s Mt Rushmore.

Pick a winger, center, defenceman, and a goalie. Only seems fair to pick one of each major position.

If he's at the very least not on your shortlist for wingers (if/once he breaks the goal record), then you need to pay more attention.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

People really underrating Kucherov's past 4 years. Peak to peak, its basically even, with Kucherov's playoff stats being vastly better.

Considering Ovi fell off hard after 2010 point wise, won't be hard for 30+ Kucherov to outperform Ovi's 2nd half career.

OV won 4 rockets and a Conn Smythe after 30. It will be very hard for an injury prone player to match that.

Kucherov’s playoff stats are marginally better than OVs. OV in his prime had some pretty amazing outings, it’s a shame his team didn’t get a deep run until his 30s. That year his team lost to Crosby in game 7 he scored 11 goals in 14 games. Kucherov didn’t even sniff that total in any of his deep runs where he racked up nice point totals.

 

[LTIR Trickery]

Wtf is this bs? What team did Kucherov "carry"? He's on a team where he can miss a full season and they still finish top 3 in the division. OV in his prime misses a full season the caps are in the lottery. Kuch has Hedman, what Norris winner did OV play with? Kuch has Stamkos, what 2x rocket winner did OV play with? Kuch has Stamkos and Point, what 50 goal scorer did OV play with? Kucherov didn't carry shit.

OV had multiple 50+50 seasons in his prime, while Kucherov has never scored more than 41 goals in a season. Kuch had his 1 outlier fluke year when he won the hart, Lindsay, Ross and led in PPG. He's never led in PPG or been a hart or lindsay finalist any other season. OV led in PPG 3x, is a 6x lindsay finalist and 5x hart finalist. OV is a different tier of player.

Lmao yeah no they totally didn't have people like Mike Green, John Carlson, Nick Backstrom, none of those guys existed nope, totally a lottery team

 

[Stelio Kontos]

Not very important for the NHL career, but still notable that Kucherov has zero national team championships, even the U18s when he score 21 points in 7 games was a bronze.

What a stupid argument. You are aware that ovechkin is a lot older than him right??

 

[Toby91ca]

Pick a winger, center, defenceman, and a goalie. Only seems fair to pick one of each major position.

If he's at the very least not on your shortlist for wingers (if/once he breaks the goal record), then you need to pay more attention.

So make up your own rules to rank top 4? Even if you have a 2nd centre being twice the player of the best winger you'd say the winger is in top 4 but not that 2nd centre? Doesn't make sense. That said, I'd almost exclude goalies from the discussion though since the position is so drastically different from skaters...how can you possibly compare?

My own opinion of course, but OV has 0% chance of being considered top 4 all time, at the same time, I'd suggest it looks almost entirely remote that Kucherov could ever be considered higher on the all time list either. While Kucherov has many years left to do something amazing to prove otherwise, extremely hard to imagine some sort of explosion of stardom into his 30s.

 

[Sweetpotato]

Absolutely no way Kucherovs legacy surpasses OVs.

 

[archangel2]

Are we doing revisionist history here? The Caps were consistently challenging for the President's trophy and had some very stacked offensive teams.

How is Kucherov not the best player on his team? Far and away the teams PPG leader in the regular and post season over the past 5 years.

You are confusing good with stacked. Bolts have more hall of famers by a long shot.

Stamkos, hedman and Vas all look to be locks. Could u imagine ovis numbers if he had those guts on his team.

If I had to rank bolts players?
Hedman
Vas
Kuch/stamkos

 

[EichHart]

lol what

 

[HTFN]

Lmao yeah no they totally didn't have people like Mike Green, John Carlson, Nick Backstrom, none of those guys existed nope, totally a lottery team

Early Caps are closer to the Oilers right now than the Lightning, a few really good top heavy players trying to outscore a bad system and top to bottom roster. Complete goobers on that defensive depth chart.

The mid-decade more defensive version was perpetually in need of a 2C and would stay that way until Kuznetsov. You’re doing this weird thing where there’s no gap between stacked and the lottery but the Capitals had holes every year and weren’t widely considered “stacked” until the year they went for Shattenkirk, and the route to get there is kind of similar to the 18-22 Leafs

 

[GreatGonzo]

Lmao yeah no they totally didn't have people like Mike Green, John Carlson, Nick Backstrom, none of those guys existed nope, totally a lottery team

You do realize how much these players got criticized for not showing up in the post season, right?

That was always the Caps biggest problem. Their depth wouldn’t show up when it was needed the most. Even Kuznetsov had issues before hitting it big 2018

 

[wetcoast]

He was also largely shutdown after game 1 of 2021 finals by the HFBoards consensus worst Stanley Cup finalists of the modern era, the Montreal Canadiens.

He had 3 points in game 1, 2 points in game 3, and then was held off the score sheet entirely in games 2, 4, and 5.

Can’t see that ever happening to Ovechkin - putting up a bunch of goose eggs in the finals, in a short series against a “trash” team, no less.

I think the OP has zero case for an argument but this isn't needed as 12-13 and 13-14 Ovechkin say hi.

I think a more interesting question would be which player was the better all time playoff performer.

 

[wetcoast]

To say Kucherov is better is simply people making a style presence - liking his all around game. Once you get past that, there’s no question Ovi is a greater play. The hardware comparison - well, there‘s no comparison…..Ovi is a first ballot HOF lock. Kucherov will be enshrined, but he’s no first ballot lock. Kucherov is an elite player. Ovi is one of the all-time greats.

While I don't disagree with your overall, premise here Kucherov will be enshrined the first year he is eligible he has 6 post seasons with 17 to 34 points.

Off the top of my head are there even a handfull of guys with 6 higher scoring rates post mid 90s in the playoffs?

he also has 3 seasons of 0ver 100 points.