Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[Neutrinos]

LOL, this is so dumb. A poor shot percentage in basketball is an actual problem because it points to inefficiency in a sport where offensive percentage play a huge role.

Hockey doesn't work the same way. A team can outshoot another team by 2 or 3 times. This doesn't happen in basketball. If a team wins 3-2 while outshooting their opponent 60 to 20, they're not doing anything wrong. Shots are a good thing in hockey, even ones that don't go in. That's not true for basketball.

Such a bad post. Just irritating. Think, reflect.

My man went on hockeydb and added up the plus/minus. Low effort, boring takes.

Here's the thing...

I didn't say taking a lot of shots in hockey was a bad thing, I said it resulted in more goals

What diminishes Ovechkin's overall value are the other aspects of the game

The example I gave - which you omitted from your reply - is an elite HR hitter in baseball is not necessarily among the game's best players because he hits a lot of dingers

Anyways, if you don't hear from me again, it's because I'm busy thinking and reflecting on my irritatingly bad, low effort, boring take post

 

[Fantomas]

The example I gave - which you omitted from your reply - is an elite HR hitter in baseball is not necessarily among the game's best players because he hits a lot of dingers

This is so deep

 

[King In The North]

If I'm wrong about Ovechkin, explain this...

From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-

Why did you post random ass +/- and not even use the same random age range for every player.

And not even use goals lmao.

 

[Neutrinos]

Why did you post random ass +/- and not even use the same random age range for every player.

And not even use goals lmao.

Cause I felt like it

 

[King In The North]

Cause I felt like it

Can't take your argument seriously

 

[EverTheCynic]

People don't wanna hear it, but you take the playoff warrior every single time.

Unless you're into the business side and wanna sell tickets and merch. Then you go with Ovi. But other than that, and regular season stuff that doesn't matter, it's clearly Kucherov.

I will never understand people's obsession with the regular season. It's 82 games long and insanely intense. No teams play properly, it's open ended pond hockey, because there's just too many games to keep up that level of intensity.

Playoffs is when teams start playing the game properly. And when hockey is being played at that highest level, Kuch has proven he's better than Ovi.

Unless we are talking Ovi in his first 2 seasons. You always take that guy. He was like Lindros.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

If I'm wrong about Ovechkin, explain this...

From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-

Yeah, it's definitely an accurate comparison to use different ages, no adjusting for league GPG, or games played. Right up there with your Harden > Kobe takes.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I love the hate for the guy. The only guy that can touch Kucherov over like the past 4 seasons has been McDavid. Ovi is probably the best pure scorer of our generation and honestly helped the game be more exciting, but being a playoff performer, carrying offense and teams? Not being a defensive liability? Thanks i'll take 86.

Hard to compare two drastically different players though, Kucherov could never do what Ovi does as a shooter and Ovi can't do what Kucherov does as a playmaker.

Wtf is this bs? What team did Kucherov "carry"? He's on a team where he can miss a full season and they still finish top 3 in the division. OV in his prime misses a full season the caps are in the lottery. Kuch has Hedman, what Norris winner did OV play with? Kuch has Stamkos, what 2x rocket winner did OV play with? Kuch has Stamkos and Point, what 50 goal scorer did OV play with? Kucherov didn't carry shit.

OV had multiple 50+50 seasons in his prime, while Kucherov has never scored more than 41 goals in a season. Kuch had his 1 outlier fluke year when he won the hart, Lindsay, Ross and led in PPG. He's never led in PPG or been a hart or lindsay finalist any other season. OV led in PPG 3x, is a 6x lindsay finalist and 5x hart finalist. OV is a different tier of player.

 

[wetcoast]

You do realize Ovechkin has a case for hockey Mt Rushmore if/when he breaks Gretzky goal record ?

I think the original question was a bit of a stretch but 2nd post and you had to one up him eh?

 

[Acallabeth]

I never understand people's obsession with the regular season. It's 82 games long and insanely intense. No teams play properly, it's open ended pond hockey, because there's just too many games to keep up that level of intensity.

Because conclusions drawn from a 82 game sample size, when everyone plays everyone, are much more reliable than those from a 20 game sample size, when teams have entirely different opponents.

 

[Boxscore]

People don't wanna hear it, but you take the playoff warrior every single time.

Unless you're into the business side and wanna sell tickets and merch. Then you go with Ovi. But other than that, and regular season stuff that doesn't matter, it's clearly Kucherov.

I will never understand people's obsession with the regular season. It's 82 games long and insanely intense. No teams play properly, it's open ended pond hockey, because there's just too many games to keep up that level of intensity.

Playoffs is when teams start playing the game properly. And when hockey is being played at that highest level, Kuch has proven he's better than Ovi.

Unless we are talking Ovi in his first 2 seasons. You always take that guy. He was like Lindros.

You do realize that Ovechkin is on the verge of doing the unthinkable and beating out Gretzky as the statistically greatest goal scorer in the history of the sport? I love Kucherov. He is an elite player and will likely end up in the HHOF, but if we're examining the full body of work, there's no case to be made that he's historically greater than Alexander Ovechkin.

 

[Nathaniel]

Absolutely

 

[archangel2]

apples vs oranges. Are you comparing them now or all time? Are you comparing Kucherov at 29 to Ovi at 29? Or ovi at 37? are you comparing them for career or a short time frame? Ovi has 822 goals while Kuch has 729 career pts. Kuch has played on a stack team for nearly 10 years--Very few of Ovis teams would be call stack

 

[bobbyking]

peak hell no

career f*** no

 

[Romang67]

The only player I wasn't consistent with was Datsyuk, and I went up in age by a year, not down

If he plays until he's 41 - which seems more than reasonable at this point - 26 - 35 will be the middle of Ovechkin's career

You don't think the other players mentioned were on the ice every power play as well?

26 - 35 may be an arbitrary age range, however, that doesn't explain why Ovechkin has been under a PPG and a minus player during that period

Does it? Did you actually try picking his middle career, or did you pick ages 26-35 because that happened to make it look bad for +/- and P/G?

The actual 9 seasons in the middle of his career right now, ages 24-33, include his +45 and +24 seasons that your sample conveniently cut off.

Turns out 26-35 wasn't an arbitrary age range at all. It was quite deliberate.

I don't think think the other players accumulated as much time, and therefore as many GA (which is a severe issue with the +/- statistic) on the PP and on EN situations). Over your time frame, Ovechkin was around +50 on 5v5 situations, and obviously had positive impact on the PP, and yet your framing makes it sound like he was a negative for the team.

 

[pcruz]

A better debate would be Kucherov vs Malkin.

Not by much.

Kucherov is comfortably behind Malkin in terms of career.

Malkin is comfortably behind Ovy.

 

[BudBundy]

Not a chance. Kuch has only been the best player on his team one year. Second or third in most years behind Hedman and Vasilevskiy. He’s an extremely good player but Ovi is on the cusp of breaking a record once thought untouchable. And for all those with the “ya but he can only score goals” don’t forget that he is and always was an absolute physical bull in a way that Kucherov could never be. Even if the shots weren’t going in on a given night, he would still drive the game. Kuch on a quiet night is a ghost. I don’t think there is any chance Kuch will have been as consistently good for nearly as long as Ovi has been, when both careers are over.

Kuch is a Jack. Ovi is an Ace. It’s not even close.

 

[Killer Orca]

This is so deep

 

[koyvoo]

Yes, if you’re listing players alphabetically, there is a rock solid case for Kucherov being ahead of Ovechkin.

 

[pcruz]

People don't wanna hear it, but you take the playoff warrior every single time.

Unless you're into the business side and wanna sell tickets and merch. Then you go with Ovi. But other than that, and regular season stuff that doesn't matter, it's clearly Kucherov.

I will never understand people's obsession with the regular season. It's 82 games long and insanely intense. No teams play properly, it's open ended pond hockey, because there's just too many games to keep up that level of intensity.

Playoffs is when teams start playing the game properly. And when hockey is being played at that highest level, Kuch has proven he's better than Ovi.

Unless we are talking Ovi in his first 2 seasons. You always take that guy. He was like Lindros.

In the last 13 playoff games between Tampa Bay and Toronto, Kucherov, your "playoff warrior", has all of 4 even strength points.

He has been a defensive catastrophe and miraculously sidestepped 2 suspensions.

Doesn't sound too much like a playoff Warrior to me.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Not by much.

Kucherov is comfortably behind Malkin in terms of career.

Malkin is comfortably behind Ovy.

Malkin is ahead of Kucherov, but…not by much lol. The gap between Ovi and Malkin/Kucherov is much bigger than the gap between the latter pair. Malkin is ahead of Kucherov by essentially one great season. If the Bolts win the Cup again, or if Kucherov wins another major award, it becomes roughly even. I don’t think either happens though, so the gap will probably remain as it is. However, there is a much better chance of Kucherov adding to his trophy case and closing the gap than there is of Malkin doing anything significant to widen it imo; Malkin’s career is in its twilight now. Great career though.

edit: For some reason I forgot that Kucherov is only 29 lol, had it in my mind that he was like 34. Feels like he’s been around for so long. Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and say there’s a good chance that Kucherov closes the gap significantly by the end of his career. He’s still scoring at an elite rate, and isn’t showing any signs of slowing down yet. He has the better part of a decade until he’s Malkin’s age.

 

[Garbageyuk]

In the last 13 playoff games between Tampa Bay and Toronto, Kucherov, your "playoff warrior", has all of 4 even strength points.

He has been a defensive catastrophe and miraculously sidestepped 2 suspensions.

Doesn't sound too much like a playoff Warrior to me.

He was also largely shutdown after game 1 of 2021 finals by the HFBoards consensus worst Stanley Cup finalists of the modern era, the Montreal Canadiens.

He had 3 points in game 1, 2 points in game 3, and then was held off the score sheet entirely in games 2, 4, and 5.

Can’t see that ever happening to Ovechkin - putting up a bunch of goose eggs in the finals, in a short series against a “trash” team, no less.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

I think an argument can be just based on the fact that Kuch has more championships and championship appearances. I think Ovechkin is an overall slight more dangerous shooter, but Kucherov is the better all around player.

What impresses me most about Ovechkin though is just how he has evolved as a goal scorer. Hope he breaks Wayne's record.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think an argument can be just based on the fact that Kuch has more championships and championship appearances. I think Ovechkin is an overall slight more dangerous shooter, but Kucherov is the better all around player.

What impresses me most about Ovechkin though is just how he has evolved as a goal scorer. Hope he breaks Wayne's record.

Agree they are different players and elite at what they do. Kucherov is the more dangerous player with the puck on his stick I'd say but ovi is the more dangerous scorer and it's tough to make a comparison on what is better from there. Some would say goal scoring and it has a great argument amd some would say the better playmaker and it's not easy to argue either. Goal scoring is more popular and the Washington capitals are the more popular team so it wouldn't shock me to see people favor ovi and I'd understand but would say kuch is being a little disrespected as well. People choosing kuch would have a hard time disputing the importance of having that top line all time elite goal scorer.

 

[peconcan]

Not even close. Put some respect on Ovis name