Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[Randyne]

I love the hate for the guy

What hate?
PPG:
Ovechkin 1,1,1,5,5,8,9,9.
Kucherov 1,2,4,4,5,8.

GPG:
Ovechkin 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,5,5,6,8,9.
Kucherov 2.

Those top PPGs from Ovechkin was against SidMalkin duo when they fed each other up to 50% of their totals like McDrai duo is doing now. Imagine a guy right now outpacing McDrai duo 3 years in a row. That's peak Ovechkin.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Peak vs Peak

At their best, Kucherov was a better playing than AO. 2018-2019 is way better than any AO's best season.

Some people will get salty over it but it is what it is. Kucherov is a much much much better playoff performer too.

Kucherov - 128
Stamkos - 98 (30)
Point - 92 (36)
League GPG: 3.01

Ovechkin - 112
Backstrom - 69 (43)
Green - 56 (56)
League GPG: 2.78

Kucherov played on a stacked roster of nearly three 100 point players. Ovechkin dragged an otherwise mediocre team to the playoffs.

 

[DFF]

Lol he has zero case. Generational goal scorer sure, but not generational player on the level of Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux. Too one dimensional.

The one dimension is the most valuable dimension for a hockey player

 

[Pablo El Perro]

An idiosyncratic case, I s'pose.

 

[Neutrinos]

Ovy is a top 10 player of all time. Kucherov is a top 100 player of all time. Big difference.

Ovechkin is the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't been at a level that warrants consideration as a top 10 player of all-time

He has just 1 Art Ross, and while he did lead the league in points-per-game 3x, in 2 of those seasons he was only .01 points ahead. Crosby in '08, and then Malkin in '09

In 2010, Ovechkin set his career high in points-per-game with 1.51, which finished 1st in the league ahead of Henrik Sedin's mark of 1.37

Malkin, Kane, and Kucherov all lead the league by at least .20 during their career years, so shouldn't a top 10 player of all-time be able to out-produce Henrik Sedin by more than .14 PPG?

Crosby has seasons where he lead the league by .31, .34, .23


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-


In baseball, being one of the best HR hitters of all-time doesn't mean one is automatically one of the best players ever

The same rationale applies to goal scoring in hockey...

Ovechkin may be a top 10 goal scorer of all-time, but he's not a top 10 player of all-time

 

[Randyne]

but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't been at a level that warrants consideration as a top 10 player of all-time

That's a blatant lie.
WSH P% without Ovechkin = .464
WSH P% with Ovechkin = .613

PIT P% without Sid = .634
PIT P% with Sid = .613

Ovechkin is far more valuable to his team than Sid.

But I agree that player need add positive value to his team to be among top players of all time.
Ovechkin is in top 5 with top 3 hardware and unbreakable record (almost there). Sid is a toxic whiny leader his team plays better without him. He is out of top 10, his individual hardware is very short to be there.

in 2 of those seasons he was only .01 points ahead. Crosby in '08, and then Malkin in '09

Ovechkin outpaced 2 generational players which fed each other. It's a plus not a minus

 

[Neutrinos]

That's a blatant lie.
WSH P% without Ovechkin = .464
WSH P% with Ovechkin = .613

PIT P% without Sid = .634
PIT P% with Sid = .613

Ovechkin is far more valuable to his team than Sid.

But I agree that player need add positive value to his team to be among top players of all time.
Ovechkin is in top 5 with top 3 hardware and unbreakable record (almost there). Sid is a toxic whiny leader his team plays better without him. He is out of top 10, his individual hardware is very short to be there.



Ovechkin outpaced 2 generational players which fed each other. It's a plus not a minus

If I'm wrong about Ovechkin, explain this...

From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-

 

[Astyanax]

I did, Ovechkin was a skating highlight reel and my favourite player to watch. I'm not putting him down here. On top of that he's maintained an incredibly consistent level going into his late 30s, which is not easy to do. On the other hand Kucherov has played a much more rounded team game since first entering the league, and is also ahead in PPG in the playoffs. It seems like Kuch ALWAYS makes the right play and it has translated into a lot of playoffs success for the TBL, even though Kuch has played on more stacked teams. His 128 point season is also the highest we've seen in a long time, and higher than Ovechkin and Crosby ever scored, so it's not like Kuch doesn't have unbelievable peak numbers.

I agree with all you said. But saying kuch played on a more stacked team makes it sound like ovi finally carried his dead carcass of a team across the finish line. When in fact they were the premium team that just couldn't win, like the current leafs, or Tampa from a few year ago or my beloved wings of the early 90s. I love both players and ovi will go down to history as far better but I think I prefer kucherov overall game.

 

[Astyanax]

Ovechkin is a first-ballot Hall-of-famer and arguably the greatest goal-scorer the NHL has ever seen.

As good as he’s been the past several seasons (when he’s been healthy enough to play), Kucherov isn’t even a PPG player in the NHL over his whole career.

It’s not even remotely close between the two as far as careers go.

Agreed ovi is the goal scoring king and easily a first ballot hall of farmer. And although ovi destroy kuch in goals, kuch is slightly higher ppg for his career. 1.13 to 1.10

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Short answer: no
Long answer: definitely no.

 

[Acallabeth]

Not very important for the NHL career, but still notable that Kucherov has zero national team championships, even the U18s when he score 21 points in 7 games was a bronze.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Ovechkin is the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't been at a level that warrants consideration as a top 10 player of all-time

He has just 1 Art Ross, and while he did lead the league in points-per-game 3x, in 2 of those seasons he was only .01 points ahead. Crosby in '08, and then Malkin in '09

In 2010, Ovechkin set his career high in points-per-game with 1.51, which finished 1st in the league ahead of Henrik Sedin's mark of 1.37

Malkin, Kane, and Kucherov all lead the league by at least .20 during their career years, so shouldn't a top 10 player of all-time be able to out-produce Henrik Sedin by more than .14 PPG?

Crosby has seasons where he lead the league by .31, .34, .23


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-


In baseball, being one of the best HR hitters of all-time doesn't mean one is automatically one of the best players ever

The same rationale applies to goal scoring in hockey...

Ovechkin may be a top 10 goal scorer of all-time, but he's not a top 10 player of all-time

Which 10 players would you take over A.O. all time?

Which 10 NBA players would you take over Kobe all time?

 

[Praetorian Caps]

Putting my homer-isms aside the answer is clearly Alex Ovechkin.

 

[Weztex]

Which 10 forwards would you take over A.O. all time? I'm not including goalies and D because it gets confusing.

Which 10 NBA players would you take over Kobe all time?

He's talking about top-10 players, not top-10 forwards. You can't dispute his take by changing the parameters because it's confusing to you.

I have Ovechkin in my top-10 forwards but outside of my top-10 players. Those are not the same.

 

[Neutrinos]

He's talking about top-10 players, not top-10 forwards. You can't dispute his take by changing the parameters because it's confusing to you.

I have Ovechkin in my top-10 forwards but outside of my top-10 players. Those are not the same.

In his defense, he wasn't disputing my take, he was just asking for my personal ranking

 

[Neutrinos]

Which 10 forwards would you take over A.O. all time? I'm not including goalies and D because it gets confusing.

Which 10 NBA players would you take over Kobe all time?

As was pointed out, I was talking players, not forwards

If you'd like to see why Kobe isn't close to being a top 10 player of all-time, you're welcome to read my thoughts on the matter here: Your top 10 all time list, as of the 2022 offseason

 

[Breakers]

I didnt realize Ovechkin had a points per 60 above 4 only once


Kucherov has for 4 straight years averaged a point per 60 higher than 4

 

[McVespa99]

Simple question. Is there a case to be made that Nikita Kucherov is the overall better player than Alex Ovechkin? We're talking about career up until Kuchverov's age (29) and projection until they both retire. Will Kucherov be looked on as the better player between the two once they are both out of the league?

Points in favor of Kuch:

Insane Hockey IQ
Better playoffs production
Multiple cups and finals appearances

Points for ovechking:

The GOATscorer potentially.
Better peak.
Better name recognition/flashier player

Im going to go with NO

 

[Romang67]

If I'm wrong about Ovechkin, explain this...

From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-

Seems a bit disingenuous to post his cumulative +/- over an arbitrary age range that you don't even keep consistent in the comparison points. Also seems a bit weird to call 26-35 the middle of his career. He entered the NHL at age 20 and is currently 37.

Also, as always, +/- is a had stat for what you're trying to show for a player who will be out a majority of time every PP and empty net situation.

 

[Hockeyholic]

He's talking about top-10 players, not top-10 forwards. You can't dispute his take by changing the parameters because it's confusing to you.

I have Ovechkin in my top-10 forwards but outside of my top-10 players. Those are not the same.

Edited my message.

I find it's apples vs oranges when it comes to forwards & goalies/D.

Would be like taking two players, a nose tackle and receiver, and asking which is better. They have completely different responsibilities.

 

[Neutrinos]

Seems a bit disingenuous to post his cumulative +/- over an arbitrary age range that you don't even keep consistent in the comparison points. Also seems a bit weird to call 26-35 the middle of his career. He entered the NHL at age 20 and is currently 37.

Also, as always, +/- is a had stat for what you're trying to show for a player who will be out a majority of time every PP and empty net situation.

The only player I wasn't consistent with was Datsyuk, and I went up in age by a year, not down

If he plays until he's 41 - which seems more than reasonable at this point - 26 - 35 will be the middle of Ovechkin's career

You don't think the other players mentioned were on the ice every power play as well?

26 - 35 may be an arbitrary age range, however, that doesn't explain why Ovechkin has been under a PPG and a minus player during that period

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I didnt realize Ovechkin had a points per 60 above 4 only once


Kucherov has for 4 straight years averaged a point per 60 higher than 4

Going to defend Ovechkin here and point out higher scoring Era going on right now.

 

[Panthaz89]

Ovechkin is the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't been at a level that warrants consideration as a top 10 player of all-time

He has just 1 Art Ross, and while he did lead the league in points-per-game 3x, in 2 of those seasons he was only .01 points ahead. Crosby in '08, and then Malkin in '09

In 2010, Ovechkin set his career high in points-per-game with 1.51, which finished 1st in the league ahead of Henrik Sedin's mark of 1.37

Malkin, Kane, and Kucherov all lead the league by at least .20 during their career years, so shouldn't a top 10 player of all-time be able to out-produce Henrik Sedin by more than .14 PPG?

Crosby has seasons where he lead the league by .31, .34, .23


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-


In baseball, being one of the best HR hitters of all-time doesn't mean one is automatically one of the best players ever

The same rationale applies to goal scoring in hockey...

Ovechkin may be a top 10 goal scorer of all-time, but he's not a top 10 player of all-time

The only negative I could say about OV goal scoring wise is that even if he broke the all time goal scoring record is that he would be the 2nd best of all time behind #99 still because he wasn't using his time to also pile up 1000+ more assists rather than being fed constantly.

 

[Fantomas]

Ovechkin is the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else

LOL, this is so dumb. A poor shot percentage in basketball is an actual problem because it points to inefficiency in a sport where offensive percentage play a huge role.

Hockey doesn't work the same way. A team can outshoot another team by 2 or 3 times. This doesn't happen in basketball. If a team wins 3-2 while outshooting their opponent 60 to 20, they're not doing anything wrong. Shots are a good thing in hockey, even ones that don't go in. That's not true for basketball.

Such a bad post. Just irritating. Think, reflect.

 

[Fantomas]

The only player I wasn't consistent with was Datsyuk, and I went up in age by a year, not down

If he plays until he's 41 - which seems more than reasonable at this point - 26 - 35 will be the middle of Ovechkin's career

You don't think the other players mentioned were on the ice every power play as well?

26 - 35 may be an arbitrary age range, however, that doesn't explain why Ovechkin has been under a PPG and a minus player during that period

My man went on hockeydb and added up the plus/minus. Low effort, boring takes.