Is Mitch Marner the 2nd best RW in the game, right behind Kucherov?

[Number8]

Year to year though, Marner still puts up more points than Pasta. Pasta also benefits by playing with better linemates where Marner has a pylon on his other wing. Playing with Bergeron AND Marchand is far more beneficial than playing with Matthews and a pylon.

Fine, he's played with better teammates. But if you want to bring up those sorts of qualifiers -- he also puts team first. What was his quote? "I don't play for money". And given the fact that he took a very team friendly deal while Marner raked Toronto over the coals is relevant.

One is driven by team success. The other? I don't know.

And regardless Marner barely puts up more points -- 1.071 PPG vs. 1.009 PPG over 7 years of hockey. Prorate Marner's GP to Pasta and you have Marner putting up 32 more points than Pasta over 7 seasons. Noise.

What is not noise is the fact that Pasta continues to produce in the playoffs at more than a point per game -- over 70 playoff games to boot, so not a small sample size. Hell, he even picks up the pace.

Marner meanwhile drops by more than 20% when the games count. Maybe that's why Toronto has a first round problem. You get paid for the regular season but not the post season. Maybe that's the problem?

MARNER 25Y	GP	GOALS	PTS	GPG	PPG
Regular Season	451	145	483	0.322	1.071
Playoffs	39	7	33	0.179	0.846

PASTRNAK 26Y	GP	GOALS	PTS	GPG	PPG
Regular Season	531	254	536	0.478	1.009
Playoffs	70	30	74	0.429	1.057

 

[Buck Naked]

And regardless Marner barely puts up more points -- 1.071 PPG vs. 1.009 PPG over 7 years of hockey. Prorate Marner's GP to Pasta and you have Marner putting up 32 more points than Pasta over 7 seasons. Noise.

What is not noise is the fact that Pasta continues to produce in the playoffs at more than a point per game -- over 70 playoff games to boot, so not a small sample size. Hell, he even picks up the pace.

Marner meanwhile drops by more than 20% when the games count. Maybe that's why Toronto has a first round problem. You get paid for the regular season but not the post season. Maybe that's the problem?

Just out of curiosity, had the discussion been Bergeron vs. Eichel, Stamkos, or Tavares, had you pushed defense as a huge point in Bergeron's favor? Because it seems to be forgotten every time someone compares anyone to Marner. I'm not saying he's as good as Bergeron defensively, but it's absolutely one of the things that makes Marner stand out among the other forwards discussed in this group.

 

[LouJersey]

Well since Marner has just as many Stanley Cups as Pastrnak.....I'd say maybe they both need to work harder to get over that hump.

Marner should prob worry about not choking in round 1, then go from there.

Fine, he's played with better teammates. But if you want to bring up those sorts of qualifiers -- he also puts team first. What was his quote? "I don't play for money". And given the fact that he took a very team friendly deal while Marner raked Toronto over the coals is relevant.

One is driven by team success. The other? I don't know.

And regardless Marner barely puts up more points -- 1.071 PPG vs. 1.009 PPG over 7 years of hockey. Prorate Marner's GP to Pasta and you have Marner putting up 32 more points than Pasta over 7 seasons. Noise.

What is not noise is the fact that Pasta continues to produce in the playoffs at more than a point per game -- over 70 playoff games to boot, so not a small sample size. Hell, he even picks up the pace.

Marner meanwhile drops by more than 20% when the games count. Maybe that's why Toronto has a first round problem. You get paid for the regular season but not the post season. Maybe that's the problem?

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]MARNER 25Y[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]GOALS[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]GPG[/TD]
[TD]PPG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Regular Season[/TD]
[TD]451[/TD]
[TD]145[/TD]
[TD]483[/TD]
[TD]0.322[/TD]
[TD]1.071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Playoffs[/TD]
[TD]39[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]0.179[/TD]
[TD]0.846[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]PASTRNAK 26Y[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]GOALS[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]GPG[/TD]
[TD]PPG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Regular Season[/TD]
[TD]531[/TD]
[TD]254[/TD]
[TD]536[/TD]
[TD]0.478[/TD]
[TD]1.009[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Playoffs[/TD]
[TD]70[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]0.429[/TD]
[TD]1.057[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

/thread

 

[Face Of Bear]

Marner has been better than pasta for a while now

 

[JAS 39 Gripen]

Think it's funny that Leaf fans are trying to show how Marner's the better player between him and Pasta, without mentioning that hefty price tag of his that handicaps his teams effort of putting an actual team together

 

[Buck Naked]

Think it's funny that Leaf fans are trying to show how Marner's the better player between him and Pasta, without mentioning that hefty price tag of his that handicaps his teams effort of putting an actual team together

Which got nothing to do with how good a player is. What a weird thing to bring to the discussion.

 

[Voight]

He hasn’t played with Bergeron and Marchand going on 2 seasons

& his production suffered as a rsult.

 

[Number8]

Just out of curiosity, had the discussion been Bergeron vs. Eichel, Stamkos, or Tavares, had you pushed defense as a huge point in Bergeron's favor? Because it seems to be forgotten every time someone compares anyone to Marner. I'm not saying he's as good as Bergeron defensively, but it's absolutely one of the things that makes Marner stand out among the other forwards discussed in this group.

It's a fair point.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Think it's funny that Leaf fans are trying to show how Marner's the better player between him and Pasta, without mentioning that hefty price tag of his that handicaps his teams effort of putting an actual team together

What difference does it make? Has Boston won anything the past decade plus? Or is this a losers measuring contest?

Just out of curiosity, had the discussion been Bergeron vs. Eichel, Stamkos, or Tavares, had you pushed defense as a huge point in Bergeron's favor? Because it seems to be forgotten every time someone compares anyone to Marner. I'm not saying he's as good as Bergeron defensively, but it's absolutely one of the things that makes Marner stand out among the other forwards discussed in this group.

Pointed out on page 2 but obviously got no reply.

 

[MAB1]

My top 5 RW's in the NHL right now:

1. Kucherov
2. Rantanen
3. Kaprizov/Marner
4. Kaprizov/Marner
5. Panarin


Kuch is obvious and Rantanen is elite in the playoffs (although the West is a joke outside of a few teams) so I can't put Marner above either. Kaprizov produced almost as much as Marner did last year without playing with the league MVP however Marner's two-way game > KK. Not to mention Kaprizov is actually older than Marner. And for everyone ragging on Marner's playoff performances, after his first 13 playoff games he was ppg, Krill has 11 points in 13 playoff games. Panarin vs Pasta is interesting however I think Panarin on Boston would be scarier than Pasta on the Rangers.

 

[Lavar Ball]

1. Kucherov
2. Rantanen
3. Marner
4. Pastrnak
5. Panarin
6. Tkachuk

 

[Rob Brown]

Think it's funny that Leaf fans are trying to show how Marner's the better player between him and Pasta, without mentioning that hefty price tag of his that handicaps his teams effort of putting an actual team together

Probably because if you are trying to have an honest conversation about who is better, then it should be about skill and not how much money they each make.

My top 5 RW's in the NHL right now:

1. Kucherov
2. Rantanen
3. Kaprizov/Marner
4. Kaprizov/Marner
5. Panarin


Kuch is obvious and Rantanen is elite in the playoffs (although the West is a joke outside of a few teams) so I can't put Marner above either. Kaprizov produced almost as much as Marner did last year without playing with the league MVP however Marner's two-way game > KK. Not to mention Kaprizov is actually older than Marner. And for everyone ragging on Marner's playoff performances, after his first 13 playoff games he was ppg, Krill has 11 points in 13 playoff games. Panarin vs Pasta is interesting however I think Panarin on Boston would be scarier than Pasta on the Rangers.

This has been mentioned a few times in this thread but Kaprizov pretty much exclusively plays LW, no? Zucc has been RW on his line the whole time. If you're talking top 5 winger in the league, then yes I'd say Kaprizov is definitely in there.

I believe Panarin is also LW only but Rangers fans can confirm that.

 

[Lavar Ball]

I'd have Kaprizov in there, but basically the correct list.

I was considering him a LW, he would be 2nd for me on this list

 

[MAB1]

Think it's funny that Leaf fans are trying to show how Marner's the better player between him and Pasta, without mentioning that hefty price tag of his that handicaps his teams effort of putting an actual team together

Think it's funny that overly patriotic people ignore that Pasta since he's been in the NHL has predominately played with Marchand and Bergeron. Two olympic team members that along with Crosby created one of the most dominant olympic lines in recent memory.

Marner, Kaprizov, Panarin don't share a line with Bergeron and Marchand for most of their careers. Imagine if they did...

 

[JAS 39 Gripen]

Which got nothing to do with how good a player is. What a weird thing to bring to the discussion.

In a way I think it does - it hightens the expectations, at least to me

Think it's funny that overly patriotic people ignore that Pasta since he's been in the NHL has predominately played with Marchand and Bergeron. Two olympic team members that along with Crosby created one of the most dominant olympic lines in recent memory.

Marner, Kaprizov, Panarin don't share a line with Bergeron and Marchand for most of their careers. Imagine if they did...

Patriotic?

I thought Marner's been playing with "the league best goalscorer" for a few years now, at least according to all the threads on this board the last 3 years.

What difference does it make? Has Boston won anything the past decade plus? Or is this a losers measuring contest?


Pointed out on page 2 but obviously got no reply.

Nope, but to me, it's a difference to at least contribute and get through some stages in the playoffs compared to always choking and not winning a series in your whole career.

 

[MadDevil]

Why are people saying Panarin when he has only played lw for 4 seasons straight.

Perhaps they work for the PHWA and also think Ovechkin is a RW?

 

[MAB1]

In a way I think it does - it hightens the expectations, at least to me


Patriotic?

I thought Marner's been playing with "the league best goalscorer" for a few years now, at least according to all the threads on this board the last 3 years.

He played his first full season with Matthews last year, and you saw what happened (20 more points than Pasta in the same amount of games). This year he started with Matthews and is now back with JT. If you are capable enough to use google the info is there for you.

And yes Matthews has been the best goalscorer in the NHL since he was drafted, it's not close.

 

[danpantz]

He played his first full season with Matthews last year, and you saw what happened (20 more points than Pasta in the same amount of games). This year he started with Matthews and is now back with JT. If you are capable enough to use google the info is there for you.

And yes Matthews has been the best goalscorer in the NHL since he was drafted, it's not close.

Pasta lost a child. You all keep ignoring that when picking these time frames.

I’ll concede that Marner has outperformed Pasta when they are in a weird covid season and when Pasta’s child dies.

Outside of that it’s been Pasta. Like this season, while not playing with Bergeron and Marchand. He has twice as many goals and 4 more points in less games played than Marner even with Marners crazy point streak.

 

[MAB1]

Pasta lost a child. You all keep ignoring that when picking these time frames.

I’ll concede that Marner has outperformed Pasta when they are in a weird covid season and when Pasta’s child dies.

Outside of that it’s been Pasta.

I don't really care for their personal issues concerning stats. Tavares had family circumstances affecting his play during his 2nd season with Toronto, that didn't stop HF from making threads about signing him being a mistake. You produce, it's not Marner's problem what Pasta went through.

Marner plays in a market much more intense than Pasta does, do we now take that into consideration too? Pasta is a year older than Marner, do we take that into consideration too?

 

[danpantz]

I don't really care for their personal issues concerning stats. Tavares had family circumstances affecting his play during his 2nd season with Toronto, that didn't stop HF from making threads about signing him being a mistake. You produce, it's not Marner's problem what Pasta went through.

You guys keep using that season to say marner is better when there is a major reason why but leaving out the present and all the other time besides that.

You might not care about it, but it happened and explains Pasta’s down(40 goals btw) year.

 

[Rob Brown]

You guys keep using that season to say marner is better when there is a major reason why but leaving out the present and all the other time besides that.

You might not care about it, but it happened and explains Pasta’s down(40 goals btw) year.

Totally understand your point and what Pasta went through is horrible and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. More just that when discussing who is the better player you can't discount one player because another had a difficult season personally. You can also look at their whole career and not just last season.

 

[MAB1]

You guys keep using that season to say marner is better when there is a major reason why but leaving out the present and all the other time besides that.

You might not care about it, but it happened and explains Pasta’s down(40 goals btw) year.

Who's you guys?

Pasta CAREER PPG: 536 points in 532 games - 1.00 ppg
Marner CAREER PPG: 483 points in 451 games - 1.07 ppg

Any more excuses?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

In a way I think it does - it hightens the expectations, at least to me


Patriotic?

I thought Marner's been playing with "the league best goalscorer" for a few years now, at least according to all the threads on this board the last 3 years.


Nope, but to me, it's a difference to at least contribute and get through some stages in the playoffs compared to always choking and not winning a series in your whole career.

Probably helps to walk into a veteran team.

 

[danpantz]

Who's you guys?

Pasta CAREER PPG: 536 points in 532 games - 1.00 ppg
Marner CAREER PPG: 483 points in 451 games - 1.07 ppg

Any more excuses?

22 gp - 14 goals 32 points
24 gp - 7 goals 28 points

This year.

Also, You guys love using those first two Pasta seasons against him when he wasn't a full time player and was getting like 10 minutes a night under Julien.

Since then, The same amount of time Marner has been a full-time nhler, Pasta has out performed him.

 

[Rob Brown]

22 gp - 14 goals 32 points
24 gp - 7 goals 28 points

This year.

Why is a 22 or 24 game sample size more appropriate than a 483+ game sample size?