Is John Tavares starting to slip?

[EdmFlyersfan]

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/this-magical-amulet-claims-to-protect-you-from-electromagnetic-radiation-why-are-john-tavares-rj/article_11074054-8c9e-11ef-9b50-b35db3c16997.html

/thread

 

[NVious]

Re: Tavares signing for too high AAV. If he signs for too much and doesn't perform up to the billing he'll be blamed by the media and fans; if he signs for less than his perceived value it'll be a blow to all other players who will feel increased pressure to sign for less money. How to fix this problem? Maybe limit the term? Even then, franchises would rather sign generational superstars to contracts as long as possible -- imagine being able to sign McDavid to only, say, four-year contracts and have the AAV raise like 2M with each renewal (though I guess it could even out with the underperformers).

Tavares already got paid, he was nowhere near an 11 million dollar center come playoff time. If he really wants to win in Toronto he can take a serious discount, otherwise he can go wherever he wants. He is Toronto's Stamkos, can look good at times if he's drowning in talent but otherwise, isn't a needle mover.

 

[winnipegger]

Just commenting to say don't disrespect Mats he was a great player.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Just commenting to say don't disrespect Mats he was a great player.

I don't think comparing Mats to John is considered disrespect. Although I'd probably rate Mats a tad higher I don't think John is far off at all. You could make a healthy argument they are the same tier player considering Mats never had a top 5 MVP finish and John has had 2 top 3

Not even close lmao, Sundin was a warrior who performed in the playoffs, Tavares does neither of those.

Sundin went ppg 4/9 playoff appearances with a worse supporting cast than JT and a lower scoring era
Tavares went ppg 1/9 playoff appearances with a better supporting cast in a higher scoring era

Tavares is a Costco Sundin at a Erewhon price.

Mats did not play in a lower scoring era than John for the bulk of their careers.

 

[AvroArrow]

Tavares already got paid, he was nowhere near an 11 million dollar center come playoff time. If he really wants to win in Toronto he can take a serious discount, otherwise he can go wherever he wants. He is Toronto's Stamkos, can look good at times if he's drowning in talent but otherwise, isn't a needle mover.

Normally I would 100% agree

This season, he looks incredible. He's playing some of the best hockey I have ever seen him play, legit looks like he's in his prime. I said it myself several times, how him and Stamkos were similar in that aspect, but this year he has been dominant.

Also he is gonna take a discount to stay here, a family member of mine knows his wife. They just wanna retire in Toronto and raise their kids here. Probably gets an NMC and a super cheap long AAV deal.

 

[ManofSteel55]

He's started to slip a few years ago. Remember, when he was in his prime, Tavares was a top 3 - 5 player in the world. Top 10 for sure. He's not that, and hasn't been close for a number of years. He's slower than he used to be, and he was never fast. So yes, he's starting to slip. Just like he should be at his age.

 

[winnipegger]

I don't think comparing Mats to John is considered disrespect. Although I'd probably rate Mats a tad higher I don't think John is far off at all. You could make a healthy argument they are the same tier player considering Mats never had a top 5 MVP finish and John has had 2 top 3


Mats did not play in a lower scoring era than John for the bulk of their careers.

Mats scored 94 points at the peak of the dead puck era and was PPG otherwise. He's a clear tier above Tavares who has never been over PPG and played in a higher scoring era.

 

[caymanmew]

Mats scored 94 points at the peak of the dead puck era and was PPG otherwise. He's a clear tier above Tavares who has never been over PPG and played in a higher scoring era.

You know Tavares was over a PPG and second in league scoring in 2014/15? Also 4th by PPG game in 2013/14(Broken leg at the Olympics). Tavares was at or above PPG 5 times, and missed PPG 2 other times by a single point.

Sundin and Tavares have similar peaks/prime, with Sundin not falling off as hard as Tavares has post 30.

 

[Sal Iaccuzzo]

You know Tavares was over a PPG and second in league scoring in 2014/15? Also 4th by PPG game in 2013/14(Broken leg at the Olympics). Tavares was at or above PPG 5 times, and missed PPG 2 other times by a single point.

Sundin and Tavares have similar peaks/prime, with Sundin not falling off as hard as Tavares has post 30.

Tavares has been about a PPG every year with the Leafs except for last year which was very similar to his 2016-17 season in NY. He also hovered around a PPG his entire time in NY.

I wouldn't say he has fallen off much at all and the majority of talks about him involve the core 4 and contracts and not his individual performance.

 

[winnipegger]

By both peak and longevity and playoff success Sundin is clearly better and I will now leave this thread and never return.

 

[Hank Plank]

He's started to slip a few years ago. Remember, when he was in his prime, Tavares was a top 3 - 5 player in the world. Top 10 for sure. He's not that, and hasn't been close for a number of years. He's slower than he used to be, and he was never fast. So yes, he's starting to slip. Just like he should be at his age.

Tavares was never a top 10 player.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Tavares was never a top 10 player.

He finished 2nd for art ross one year by a point. Pretty sure that made him top 10

 

[Nothingbutglass]

4x8 probably gets it done if you sign him now

 

[tarheelhockey]

For fans who don’t understand why Sundin was a controversial HHOF induction, maybe Tavares will help you understand.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Tavares was never a top 10 player.

He absolutely was. He was even a Hart Finalist one year. Finished 2nd in the points race. He absolutely was a top 10 player. For a couple of years many would have ranked him right after Sid and Ovi.

 

[Martin Skoula]

For fans who don’t understand why Sundin was a controversial HHOF induction, maybe Tavares will help you understand.

If Tavares stayed on the island with 3rd liners on his wing and captained team Canada maybe.

 

[Primary Assist]

For fans who don’t understand why Sundin was a controversial HHOF induction, maybe Tavares will help you understand.

Was Sundin really that controversial? There was the standard anti-Leaf grumbling that's inevitable when someone so much as mentions the Maple Leafs in passing, but he was pretty clearly a HOF lock before he retired. Maybe some people were up in arms he was a First Balloter, but even those people knew he should be in the Hall.

He captained Sweden to Gold and was (I believe) the first Swede, if not one of the first Europeans, to go first overall in the draft. He's a giant among the international community.

To keep this on thread - and to compare Sundin to Tavares: I don't think the Leafs are perennial first round failures if a similar aged Sundin replaced Tavares in 2017, all else being held equal. And I like Tavares as a Leaf fan, but Sundin is clearly the superior player.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

If Tavares stayed on the island with 3rd liners on his wing and captained team Canada maybe.

This is kind of silly since his stats are basically the same as when he was on the Island (except for his playoff stats, which are obviously worse on Toronto).

It's not like he's finally been unleashed.

 

[Mike C]

His points have dropped a hair this year, but he still dominates in other areas like faceoffs, and is a dangerous net front guy.

Won 19 faceoffs the other night. Mighty impressive

 

[Regal]

For fans who don’t understand why Sundin was a controversial HHOF induction, maybe Tavares will help you understand.

People say Sundin was only in the HoF for being a Leaf but I’d say he was only “controversial” for the same reason. People love to rag on the Leafs and their lack of success since the 06. The consistency and career production was obviously getting him in.

 

[Crow]

Explain the difference to me. I watched Sundins whole career. He is only in the HHOF because he played in Toronto.

What did he accomplish or bring to the Leafs that Tavares hasn't?

He was pretty close to a one man show where as Tavares gave up on being the same go join a team of stars that perform weakly in the playoffs. Very different players and situations.

I guess both will be in hhof imo but Tavares was a huge failure to me. Sundin was a loyal soldier and did everything he could. I’d be proud to be sundin and ashamed of myself if I held a contender back and never did shit like Tavares when I was supposed to be the best.

 

[Crow]

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/this-magical-amulet-claims-to-protect-you-from-electromagnetic-radiation-why-are-john-tavares-rj/article_11074054-8c9e-11ef-9b50-b35db3c16997.html

/thread

What the f***? Is that true? I would rather live my life as a homeless person than sell snake oil to the mentally handicapped. I’m going to assume this isn’t true until more proof. Good god man. You can’t even convince someone so dumb to fall for something like this is wrong either. They will fight you about it. Can’t be true. Please someone tell me he isn’t this stupid.

 

[Plural]

People say Sundin was only in the HoF for being a Leaf but I’d say he was only “controversial” for the same reason. People love to rag on the Leafs and their lack of success since the 06. The consistency and career production was obviously getting him in.

Honestly, if you put Sundin's career in Arizona do you see that player being slam dunk Hall of Fame'r?

He was getting in because career totals. But Leafs career absolutely boosted his stature.

 

[Martin Skoula]

This is kind of silly since his stats are basically the same as when he was on the Island (except for his playoff stats, which are obviously worse on Toronto).

It's not like he's finally been unleashed.

That’s my point, Sundin has the one big season and then a bunch of “what if” seasons because we never saw him with elite wingers consistently, Tavares had the “what if” answered and it wasn’t that impressive. If he stayed PPG on the island with whatever flavor of the week grinder Lou picked up, he’d have the “what if” benefit of the doubt still.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

He's started to slip a few years ago. Remember, when he was in his prime, Tavares was a top 3 - 5 player in the world. Top 10 for sure. He's not that, and hasn't been close for a number of years. He's slower than he used to be, and he was never fast. So yes, he's starting to slip. Just like he should be at his age.

A) Him "starting to slip" was always part of the deal. Everyone expected a falloff towards the end of this contract. He's 100% lived up to his end of the bargain, but, B) Even now he's playing at a 78 point, 35 goal pace, right around his career averages. C) If anything, he actually looks speedier so far this year but I expect that to tail off as the season grinds on (pretty sure he's had fast starts in the past that tend to normalize as the season plays out),

Take me back to the start of this deal and tell me he'd be a point per game player and a 35 goal scorer in the final year of the contract and I would have said "Hell yeah."