Is John Tavares starting to slip?

[Regal]

Honestly, if you put Sundin's career in Arizona do you see that player being slam dunk Hall of Fame'r?

He was getting in because career totals. But Leafs career absolutely boosted his stature.

I don’t think it would change anything really. It’s not like he got in because the Leafs were a dynasty like a Glenn Anderson with the Oilers. It boosted his star status, sure, but that’s different. I don’t think Sundin was a “controversial” HOFer for many people other than Leaf haters of those who have a poor grasp of where the standards are.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Mats scored 94 points at the peak of the dead puck era and was PPG otherwise. He's a clear tier above Tavares who has never been over PPG and played in a higher scoring era.

If I had to pick I'm definitely taking Mats but I wouldn't say he was a full tier better, just slightly better mostly because of intangibles like being impossible to move off the puck and clutch play in big moments. But they do have similar production throughout their careers. Tavares actually has more points per game and definitely has a couple of seasons with more than a PPG.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

You know Tavares was over a PPG and second in league scoring in 2014/15? Also 4th by PPG game in 2013/14(Broken leg at the Olympics). Tavares was at or above PPG 5 times, and missed PPG 2 other times by a single point.

Sundin and Tavares have similar peaks/prime, with Sundin not falling off as hard as Tavares has post 30.

Very similar late stage career numbers actually. Sundin was more consistent though.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

4x8 probably gets it done if you sign him now

Yikes, that would make him 42 at the end of the deal. For me, he either takes a Spezza type deal or it's a goodbye with a laurel and a hardy handshake .Notthing personal, they just have other gaps to fill.

 

[Plural]

I don’t think it would change anything really. It’s not like he got in because the Leafs were a dynasty like a Glenn Anderson with the Oilers. It boosted his star status, sure, but that’s different. I don’t think Sundin was a “controversial” HOFer for many people other than Leaf haters of those who have a poor grasp of where the standards are.

Hmm...you might be right. I may have fallen in to bias trap. What are some comparable Hall of Fame centers that got in and were not controversial? Sundin was PPG for 1350 games. Also 500+ goals. That does sound like a good Hall of Fame resume.

 

[Folignos Helmet]

Why can’t he take the Matt Duchene contract if he really wants to stay.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

That’s my point, Sundin has the one big season and then a bunch of “what if” seasons because we never saw him with elite wingers consistently, Tavares had the “what if” answered and it wasn’t that impressive. If he stayed PPG on the island with whatever flavor of the week grinder Lou picked up, he’d have the “what if” benefit of the doubt still.

"The big season" was 92-93 when it felt like every player was a 100+ point player. Take away that one year and Tavares pulls ahead even further in career regular season production, I'm still taking Sundin though if forced to choose.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1993_skaters.html#stats::points

 

[Bizz]

starting? his career immediately went to shit the second he put on a Maple Leafs sweater.

 

[Martin Skoula]

"The big season" was 92-93 when it felt like every player was a 100+ point player. Take away that one year and Tavares pulls ahead even further in career regular season production, I'm still taking Sundin though if forced to choose.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1993_skaters.html#stats::points

I get the scoring levels that year were an anomaly, I’m just saying the question of “what does Sundin look like with all-star calibre linemates” was answered with a big season early on and then it was mostly him with C tier grinders other than Mogilny and Roberts. I can see people looking at his early peak and international career and saying there’s more to him than just 30+ goals and PPG every year, he could have flirted with 100 more often with elite wingers.

Tavares has had nothing but elite wingers his entire time in Toronto, there’s no questions about what he could have achieved in a better situation. There’s no mystery for people doing the rankings to gamble on, what you see is the realistic upside he’s capable of short of playing on a full run and gun basement team with one elite line and no expectation to backcheck.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I get the scoring levels that year were an anomaly, I’m just saying the question of “what does Sundin look like with all-star calibre linemates” was answered with a big season early on and then it was mostly him with C tier grinders other than Mogilny and Roberts. I can see people looking at his early peak and international career and saying there’s more to him than just 30+ goals and PPG every year, he could have flirted with 100 more often with elite wingers.

Tavares has had nothing but elite wingers his entire time in Toronto, there’s no questions about what he could have achieved in a better situation. There’s no mystery for people doing the rankings to gamble on, what you see is the realistic upside he’s capable of short of playing on a full run and gun basement team with one elite line and no expectation to backcheck.

Definitely correct. It was a long standing complaint that Mats never truly had proper wingers to play with.