Is John Tavares starting to slip?

[PaulD]

Whether it's good enough or not is a completely different can of worms. It should have been expected at the inception that he would no longer be at his peak at this point.

The management's use of the cap has been questioned for a long time. This is where the onus lies, not the player.

both.
When you ask/ demand that salary....
you get the flack if and when when you no longer playvwell eniugh to be earning it. Especially in a hard cap league.
Good for him and his agent for getting the $$$. But it's not a lottery win. It comes with expectations and risk of criticism.

 

[archangel2]

Media is turning against him

 

[PaulD]

He's been slipping for a while but scoring being up has masked it a little. The other problem is that the Leafs don't play a game that suits his style. He goes to the net and the Leafs are a soft, perimeter team that rarely puts the puck into play for him there.

I'll just add in that he has been overpaid since day one and that his contract completely wrecked the Leafs internal salary structure and thus their rebuild. They are squandering what may be the most talented group of players they have ever developed.

And when you look at the players that have been available and gobbled up by other teams since the signing of JT in Toronto.
Tkachuk, Verheage, Montour, Hyman, Hamilton, Eichel, Horvat, Burns, Chychrun, just to name a few.

Media is turning against him

welcome to the big leagues....
welcome to Toronto

 

[JianYang]

both.
When you ask/ demand that salary....
you get the flack if and when when you no longer playvwell eniugh to be earning it. Especially in a hard cap league.
Good for him and his agent for getting the $$$. But it's not a lottery win. It comes with expectations and risk of criticism.

This is not really a practical approach. When a high profile player in his later 20s signs a big deal, its pretty much inevitable that they won't be as effective in their final years as they would be at inception, but that's the cost of doing business. Management is the one that needs to identify whether that is the best use of their cap, and that's where we can see that they really messed up.

Tavares has pretty much been a PPG guy for his entire contract, and that is considering that he wasn't expected to be the top center assuming matthews panned out, which he certainly did.

Considering the type of player he is, and his slotting on the team, I don't think the leaf issues fall on him, and now that he's in his mid 30s and slipping.... well, colour me shocked.

 

[PaulD]

This is not really a practical approach. When a high profile player in his later 20s signs a big deal, its pretty much inevitable that they won't be as effective in their final years as they would be at inception, but that's the cost of doing business. Management is the one that needs to identify whether that is the best use of their cap, and that's where we can see that they really messed up.

Tavares has pretty much been a PPG guy for his entire contract, and that is considering that he wasn't expected to be the top center assuming matthews panned out, which he certainly did.

Considering the type of player he is, and his slotting on the team, I don't think the leaf issues fall on him, and now that he's in his mid 30s and slipping.... well, colour me shocked.

I don't ever recall anyone saying the "leafs issues fell on him" ever. Not a fan nor any of the talking heads. Of course they don't, colour me shocked.
JT and his respectable point a game have nothing to do with the issues the leafs have had on the blue line for some time. Or the sub standard goaltending. Lack of depth. One could easily see the issues the leafs have were there when JT was in New York.
Leafs issues dont fall on JT? No kidding.
Dubas allocation of the cap dollars made it tough to address the real issues.
Cheers

 

[JianYang]

I don't ever recall anyone saying the "leafs issues fell on him" ever. Not a fan nor any of the talking heads. Of course they don't, colour me shocked.
JT and his respectable point a game has nothing to so with the issues they have had on the blue line season after season Or the sub standard goaltending. Lack of depth. One could easily see the issues the leafs have were there when JT was in New York.
A Leafs issues dont fall on JT? No kidding.
Dubas allocation of the cap dollars made it tough to address the real issues.
Cheers

This was in response to saying that if the player is not performing up to expectations and are demanding a certain salary, then they deserve to be criticized regardless of the situation. I'm saying that a drop-off was always expected at this point, and regardless he's been fine up until this season.

This is on management and their allocation of cap resources.

 

[BKarchitect]

He was starting to slip heavily as an even strength player a while ago. Obviously he was never fleet of foot and relied upon his amazing hockey brain and offensive tools but it’s very, very hard to be continuously effective in open ice normal play these days if you can’t skate.

His abilities as a PP weapon (merchant if you want to be rude) kind of hid his obvious weakness at 5v5 for a couple years now. He had almost 40 PP points last year and is pacing for less than half of that this year.

I don’t think he’s done as an effective NHL scorer but I do think he will need to be transitioned into the role the Stars put Jamie Benn in sooner rather than later…much lower and sheltered third line type 5v5 minutes and then let him use his energy on the PP where he only has to skate half the ice and can still be very dangerous.

 

[PaulD]

This was in response to saying that if the player is not performing up to expectations and are demanding a certain salary, then they deserve to be criticized regardless of the situation. I'm saying that a drop-off was always expected at this point, and regardless he's been up until this season.

This is on management and their allocation of cap resources.

Yes drop off ...or playing poorly.
Just because it is to be expected doesn't exclude the player from criticism.
He's has been a minus player for the last three seasons on a team full of plus players.

 

[JianYang]

Yes drop off ...or playing poorly.
Just because it is to be expected doesn't exclude the player from criticism.
He's has been a minus playes for the last three seasons on a team full of plus players.
Might be accurate to say "to be expected" But this is the NHL and Leaf nation and Toronto media.
I not only agree it was to be expected....it was predicted by many including me.

I mean, it will happen with Nylander too and we all know it's coming on the back end of his deal.

What the media does when the time comes is irrelevant. The issue is whether he deserves the heat when everyone knows he won't be as good.

The salary is moreso a function of leverage. Players get more of it after they play a few years in the league and have none of it when they are drafted. If the media are fooled into thinking otherwise then they probably aren't worth following.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

For me Tavares will always be the point where the Leafs rebuild went off the rails. Not that he's a bad player but it seemed more intent on signing the sexiest free agent than constructing a team to make multiple deep playoff runs.

 

[Calderon]

Re: Tavares signing for too high AAV. If he signs for too much and doesn't perform up to the billing he'll be blamed by the media and fans; if he signs for less than his perceived value it'll be a blow to all other players who will feel increased pressure to sign for less money. How to fix this problem? Maybe limit the term? Even then, franchises would rather sign generational superstars to contracts as long as possible -- imagine being able to sign McDavid to only, say, four-year contracts and have the AAV raise like 2M with each renewal (though I guess it could even out with the underperformers).

 

[PaulD]

I mean, it will happen with Nylander too and we all know it's coming on the back end of his deal.

What the media does when the time comes is irrelevant. The issue is whether he deserves the heat when everyone knows he won't be as good.

The salary is moreso a function of leverage. Players get more of it after they play a few years in the league and have none of it when they are drafted. If the media are fooled into thinking otherwise then they probably aren't worth following.

well said

 

[Calderon]

I mean, it will happen with Nylander too and we all know it's coming on the back end of his deal.

What the media does when the time comes is irrelevant. The issue is whether he deserves the heat when everyone knows he won't be as good.

The salary is moreso a function of leverage. Players get more of it after they play a few years in the league and have none of it when they are drafted. If the media are fooled into thinking otherwise then they probably aren't worth following.

Not to derail too much and I'm sure this has been dealt with in other threads but it's amazing how much money 1,5 years of "very good -- elite" production can net a player, even though they were preceded by SIX FULL SEASONS of merely "pretty good" production (and it's not like Nylander is a selke favorite or mr. intangibles). Had the 1,5 seasons been his 2nd and 3rd seasons, sure. I mean, is there any other player than Brad Marchant with the kind of career trajectory that Nylander needs to make his contract worth the money to the organisation? Oh well, the Leafs got money to spend.

 

[Isles Junkie]

Just reinstall his software, he'll be fine.

 

[The Shadow]

This is the best version of Tavares I’ve seen in Toronto. Playing great at both ends, key face off guy and has added some grit to his game.

Really liking what he is bringing and maybe having the C off his jersey was like removing a big weight off him.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Leaf fans still going to say they don't even want him back on a discounted deal? Had a few around here saying they wouldn't even pay 4-5m for him. He would fetch atleast 6-7m on the open market. With how injury prone AM is I think you need the C depth

 

[Protas Zealots]

I did a double take when he got the breakaway against Logan Thompson for Toronto's OT goal after racing down the entire length of the ice. I thought he was a turtle?

 

[Mattb124]

Is 34 year old John Tavares starting to slip? If he is, I couldn’t imagine why that might be.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Maybe his magic amulet stopped working???

 

[The Shadow]

Maybe his magic amulet stopped working???

Or maybe it is working and that’s why he looks so good this year

 

[HockeyVirus]

Leaf fans still going to say they don't even want him back on a discounted deal? Had a few around here saying they wouldn't even pay 4-5m for him. He would fetch atleast 6-7m on the open market.

Given we are the largest fan base in the sport, you will find thousands of fans who wouldn't take Marner or Tavares back, thousands who would give both raises, and everything in between.

Aside from that though, is this where we shame Leaf fans for wanting change after a lack of success even if it means moving on from obviously great players?

With how injury prone AM is I think you need the C depth

How is he injury prone exactly? He's been pretty consistently available since he got off his ELC

 

[TropicOfNoReturn]

It always amazes me how Leaf fans praise Mats Sundin and then shit on John Tavares. They're essentially the same player, very equal skill level, and have accomplished equal amounts.

 

[TheKingSlayer]

It always amazes me how Leaf fans praise Mats Sundin and then shit on John Tavares. They're essentially the same player, very equal skill level, and have accomplished equal amounts.

Obvious troll post is obvious.

 

[TropicOfNoReturn]

Obvious troll post is obvious.

Explain the difference to me. I watched Sundins whole career. He is only in the HHOF because he played in Toronto.

What did he accomplish or bring to the Leafs that Tavares hasn't?

 

[NVious]

It always amazes me how Leaf fans praise Mats Sundin and then shit on John Tavares. They're essentially the same player, very equal skill level, and have accomplished equal amounts.

Not even close lmao, Sundin was a warrior who performed in the playoffs, Tavares does neither of those.

Sundin went ppg 4/9 playoff appearances with a worse supporting cast than JT and a lower scoring era
Tavares went ppg 1/9 playoff appearances with a better supporting cast in a higher scoring era

Tavares is a Costco Sundin at a Erewhon price.