Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Cursed Lemon]

Weird, the resource I checked showed that McDavid had 48 points in 48 games in his rookie year but it looks like it's 45 games instead, so I guess that's an error.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

There's no conceivable argument to make that shows Crosby was a better player than McDavid in any regard.

Regular season, playoffs, you name it... McDavid's production absolutely obliterates Crosby's. Whether that puts him a tier above is debatable... but it is a debate because McDavid is just that good.

Is Matthews better than Crosby? Is MacKinnon? How about Kucherov?

The truth of the matter is that Crosby grew up and played in his prime in a very different NHL. They aren’t really comparable.

The impact they’ve had on the game is equal. McDavid staying healthy throughout pretty much his whole career is a great accomplishment as well that definitely has benefited his legacy.

If you don’t think that Prime Ovie and Prime Crosby would be tearing this league to shreds the same way the current players are, you’re just wrong.

 

[Golden_Jet]

McDavid does not have a 3rd-place PPG finish so I don't know where you're getting that from, his 6th place is from his rookie year. I'm counting at least half the season played, that means Crosby's 2011 season just squeaks in and his 2012 season is out.

We're not proactively giving McDavid finishes he hasn't gotten yet. Right now, their career value is essentially the same with Crosby getting dinged for injuries.

Yep being able to play is a big bonus.
McDavid wins this.

 

[Crow]

McDavid does not have a 3rd-place PPG finish so I don't know where you're getting that from, his 6th place is from his rookie year. I'm counting at least half the season played, that means Crosby's 2011 season just squeaks in and his 2012 season is out.

We're not proactively giving McDavid finishes he hasn't gotten yet. Right now, their career value is essentially the same with Crosby getting dinged for injuries.

Just looking at PPG finishes completely ignores the margins by which they dominated and their total actual contributions to their team success during each season.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

"articles" lmaoo ok

this isn't even about mcdavid, I have no opinion or insecurity on who is better. I love and cheered for both my whole life so I am blessed either way. you're just straight up the lying

learn to read, until Crosby won his third people would Kopi/Toews/Bergeron were superior up until 2015/16. which is crazy considering I've been defending Crosby his whole career with the same slander McDavid is facing now

I don't know who was doing that, people would argue those guys were better than superior players like Ovechkin or Malkin, but not Crosby.

 

[Video Nasty]

McDavid does not have a 3rd-place PPG finish so I don't know where you're getting that from, his 6th place is from his rookie year. I'm counting at least half the season played, that means Crosby's 2011 season just squeaks in and his 2012 season is out.

We're not proactively giving McDavid finishes he hasn't gotten yet. Right now, their career value is essentially the same with Crosby getting dinged for injuries.

1. McDavid was 3rd during his rookie year and his 45 games fulfills your stipulation.

2. I helped you out by including all of Crosby’s injury years that almost everyone harps on about normally. It’s more lopsided in McDavid’s favor if we strike out the season Crosby played only 22 games.

3. McDavid has only played 9 seasons. Crosby has played 19. His most relevant were during his first 12. McDavid has done the same or more in less time. Crosby missing time during those years still evens out with McDavid having 3 less years right now to compare and 10 less seasons overall.

McDavid has already been better and more consistent than Crosby ever proved to be, in reality and Peter Pan Neverland.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

McDavid does not have a 3rd-place PPG finish so I don't know where you're getting that from, his 6th place is from his rookie year. I'm counting at least half the season played, that means Crosby's 2011 season just squeaks in and his 2012 season is out.

We're not proactively giving McDavid finishes he hasn't gotten yet. Right now, their career value is essentially the same with Crosby getting dinged for injuries.

Way too simplistic of a way to view it and not all that helpful

 

[Lebowski]

STD would be best but we can do a point-based comparison. They were neck-and-neck in their early 20s but McDavid has really hit his stride in the last two years:
View attachment 893192
Usual caveats around different scoring rates in different eras, etc.

I personally don't hold the lack of cup against him. The Oiler have been so terribly managed for so long it's impressive that McDavid has dragged them as close to the cup as he has.

Wouldn't that take out of the equation the average league or am I misunderstanding the chart?

If this is just raw production, I think it lacks too much context to draw any conclusion.

 

[Voight]

The only facts you presented were voting results, and there is a massive gap in logic where you assume Selke votes= defensive ability. I took issue with your conclusion, Crosby has been a good defensive player, especially in the playoffs, since his 3rd or 4th season. McDavid has poor fundamentals defensively and often chases the puck carrier.

If the Olympics ever introduces mental gymnastics, you might just win the Gold Medal.

 

[Voight]

Winning in hockey is a team effort should Mcdavid be punished because Crosby had better support around him? Mcdavid proved this off post season he can be the engine and carry a team to the finals and I'd argue his performance this year trumps anything Crosby has done in the play offs. I still how ever think if Crosby was in his prime this year he easily puts up 130 points, but I still think going head to head with Mcdavid both in there prime Mcdavid comes out ontop offensively. And I disagree with Crosby having the "IT" factor with winning, I'd argue that if you put Mcdavid on those Pens teams and Crosby on the Oilers the Pens are still winning 3 cups. Its about support, and the Pens just had better depth the years they won than the Oilers have.

Its like when people bring up that Crosby has two Gold Medals and McDavid has none.

When exactly was McDavid supposed to win Gold? 2018 when the NHL refused to let the players go or 2022 when they reneged on their decision to let the players go? 2014 when he was in grade 11?

 

[rielledup]

It's a shame that when Crosby was at his best he was also dealing with concussion/ neck issues that made him miss a lot games. He had 3 seasons in a row where he was on pace for around 130 back when scoring was lower than it is right now. I'd say they're very close to each other.

 

[Felidae]

It's a shame that when Crosby was at his best he was also dealing with concussion/ neck issues that made him miss a lot games. He had 3 seasons in a row where he was on pace for around 130 back when scoring was lower than it is right now. I'd say they're very close to each other.

Agreed. Crosby's dominance over his peers those years was statistically very similar to McDavid's 2023-24 season.

There will always be people doubting whether Crosby would have maintained that same dominance over a full season rather than just half seasons over the course of a few years (and fair enough). McDavid also does deserve credit for doing exactly that.

For me though, this is still Crosby because of his insane elite consistency.

In addition to his 8 seasons finishing top 3 in scoring (same as Mcdavid). He has 12 seasons finishing top 10 in scoring, which outside of the big 4, is only matched by Jean Beliveau and Bobby Hull, both of whom accomplished the feat in a 6 team league.

Let's see if McDavid ages as well as Crosby.

 

[SEALBound]

Same tier but it's clear that McDavid has more skill. Of course, there's a lot of guys that are more skilled than Sid in a "pure skill" sense.

I think once you get to their level, the "next" level is a significant leap where dialing it in what differentiates the player becomes more difficult.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

I can't vote because I don't agree with any of the options.

I don't think one is better than the other. Same tier, different player.

And the posters that think Crosby is better at winning is only an admission that they haven't watched many Penguins and Oilers games over the years.

It's pretty rich seeing the state of the Penguins now and the state of the Oilers now and still believing Crosby has this magical winning attribute that McDavid doesn't.

 

[Video Nasty]

It's a shame that when Crosby was at his best he was also dealing with concussion/ neck issues that made him miss a lot games. He had 3 seasons in a row where he was on pace for around 130 back when scoring was lower than it is right now. I'd say they're very close to each other.

His pace is highly inflated and he was more likely to score under 130 in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 than actually do it, or score less than the 76 total points in 48 games to keep up that pace in 2012-2013.

Fun facts:

He started with 15 points in his first 13 games of that magical first half of the 2010-2011 season before piling up 50 in his next 25 games. This is proof enough that he wasn’t immune to falling off at any point in the second half. He had a brilliant hot streak juicing that half season PPG that he never ever proved he was capable of sustaining for longer in his career. He should not be given any sort of benefit of doubt here.

He finished 2011-2012 with 25 points in 14 games after returning from injury. You know, when his opponents all played the second half of the prior season, the playoffs, and the first six months of that current season.

He started 2012-2013 with 7 points in 7 games and finished with 11 points in his final 10 games. Again, not immune to lower point totals sandwiched around hot streaks.

The reality is that, despite the allure of what if, he never did it, before or after the injuries. If he was the type of player we’re led to believe he is, he would have scored 120+ in 2013-2014, not finished behind the Benns and Tavares’ of the world, and fended off a sophomore McDavid before bowing out of the scoring race forever, regardless of what happened between 2010-2011 through 2012-2013.

 

[Regal]

His pace is highly inflated and he was more likely to score under 130 in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 than actually do it, or score less than the 76 total points in 48 games to keep up that pace in 2012-2013.

Fun facts:

He started with 15 points in his first 13 games of that magical first half of the 2010-2011 season before piling up 50 in his next 25 games. This is proof enough that he wasn’t immune to falling off at any point in the second half. He had a brilliant hot streak juicing that half season PPG that he never ever proved he was capable of sustaining for longer in his career. He should not be given any sort of benefit of doubt here.

He finished 2011-2012 with 25 points in 14 games after returning from injury. You know, when his opponents all played the second half of the prior season, the playoffs, and the first six months of that current season.

He started 2012-2013 with 7 points in 7 games and finished with 11 points in his final 10 games. Again, not immune to lower point totals sandwiched around hot streaks.

The reality is that, despite the allure of what if, he never did it, before or after the injuries. If he was the type of player we’re led to believe he is, he would have scored 120+ in 2013-2014, not finished behind the Benns and Tavares’ of the world, and fended off a sophomore McDavid before bowing out of the scoring race forever, regardless of what happened between 2010-2011 through 2012-2013.

This is as much of an exaggeration as you’re fighting against for the 10-13 period. 13-14 was a pretty dominant Art Ross and in line with any of McDavid’s seasons other than his three best. And while he was beaten by Benn and Tavares, he also missed a handful of games and had the better PPG. Is it that much different than McDavid beating Huberdeau and Gaudreau by a handful of points? And Crosby also missed games in McDavid’s sophomore season and essentially matched him in PPG while winning the Richard. There’s also the fact that those injuries added up and Crosby was a lot less aggressive after them. It’s impossible to know what he would have done after 2013 without them (keep in mind his second half of 2013-14 coincided with his wrist injury).

McDavid’s best was a bit better, he was a bit more consistent, and he showed he could put it all together over longer stretches, but there isn’t a huge gap in effectiveness per game up to the same age. He’s a tier ahead in terms of personal accomplishments but not really in terms of ability. It seems likely McDavid will continue to be at a level going forward that’s above what Crosby was able to do after his 3 big injury season, but after 13-14, people assumed Crosby would win more Art Rosses as well, so we won’t know exactly how they compare in that regard until it happens.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Crosby busted his ass to be a reliable player who could play both ends of the ice.

 

[GoldenSeal]

If McDavid is better than Crosby, show me Connor's name on the Cup, especially after posting a historic postseason run, winning the Conn Smythe, and losing the Cup mainly because he didn't show up when the team needed him the most. You can't be the greatest player and let "lesser" players beat you.

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

Crosby busted his ass to be a reliable player who could play both ends of the ice.

Yup, he could have led the playoffs in scoring if he wanted, he sacrificed his game to win. Crosby was an absolute terror for me as a Flyers fan, and an absolute winner that we’ve never had in Philly. Mcdavid is supremely talented but if you wanna be up there with the ATG’s you simply have to win.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Crosby busted his ass to be a reliable player who could play both ends of the ice.

Crosby was impossible to demoralize.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yup, he could have led the playoffs in scoring if he wanted, he sacrificed his game to win. Crosby was an absolute terror for me as a Flyers fan, and an absolute winner that we’ve never had in Philly. Mcdavid is supremely talented but if you wanna be up there with the ATG’s you simply have to win.

that’s like saying McDavid could focus on defense and win a selke if he wanted to, but instead he had to score and get his team in a playoff spot.

 

[LeafGrief]

Winning in hockey is a team effort should Mcdavid be punished because Crosby had better support around him? Mcdavid proved this off post season he can be the engine and carry a team to the finals and I'd argue his performance this year trumps anything Crosby has done in the play offs. I still how ever think if Crosby was in his prime this year he easily puts up 130 points, but I still think going head to head with Mcdavid both in there prime Mcdavid comes out ontop offensively. And I disagree with Crosby having the "IT" factor with winning, I'd argue that if you put Mcdavid on those Pens teams and Crosby on the Oilers the Pens are still winning 3 cups. Its about support, and the Pens just had better depth the years they won than the Oilers have.

McDavid has Draisaitl. The Pens had depth up front, namely Kessel and Guentzel, but in 16-17 they had a top4 D of Dumoulin, Hainsey, Maatta, and Schultz (in that order). Kunitz was 5th in scoring for their forwards, with 11p in 20gp. Hyman and Nugent-Hopkins had points contributions similar to Kessel and Guentzel, and Draisaitl is an apt wingman in the way Malkin is.

The 15-16 Pens had Letang, but no Guentzel. Is Trevor Daley the X factor, are Bonino and Hagelin better than what the Oilers have? The 15-16 Pens and 2023-24 Oilers were both 104 point teams in the regular season. The 08-09 Pens were fairly deep, but only a 99 point regular season team.

So no, I don’t particularly think it’s all about support or that the Penguins had that much better depth. I agree that the Oilers have been worse than Crosby’s Pens over the years, but this Oilers team that made the finals is actually very comparable to the Cup winning Penguins teams, particularly the 16-17 team. If Crosby won 3 cups on the 95-2002 Red Wings or the recent Lightning, sure I'd buy the supporting cast argument, but those Penguins teams were in no way odds-on favourites or super deep.

I watched pretty much every minute of all three Penguins cup wins. The team pulled their weight, but it was the performance of the superstars, Crosby included, that was the engine that drove those cup winning teams. Crosby doesn't care whether you think he has the "It factor" or not, his trophy cabinet is overflowing.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

All after 9 seasons:

Points:
McDavid: 982
Crosby: 769

Points per game:
McDavid: 1.52
Crosby: 1.40

Art Ross:
McDavid: 5
Crosby: 2

Pearson:
McDavid: 4
Crosby: 3

Hart:
McDavid: 3
Crosby: 2

Conn Smythe:
McDavid: 1
Crosby: 0

Stanley Cups:
McDavid: 0
Crosby: 1

After his 9th Season, Crosby hit 100+ points once, and added 2 Conn Smythe's, 2 Stanley Cups, and a Rocket.

Considering era that per game number is actually very close. McDavid has had better health hence the stronger trophy case. But in terms of level of play it's actually very close.

 

[Video Nasty]

This is as much of an exaggeration as you’re fighting against for the 10-13 period. 13-14 was a pretty dominant Art Ross and in line with any of McDavid’s seasons other than his three best. And while he was beaten by Benn and Tavares, he also missed a handful of games and had the better PPG. Is it that much different than McDavid beating Huberdeau and Gaudreau by a handful of points? And Crosby also missed games in McDavid’s sophomore season and essentially matched him in PPG while winning the Richard. There’s also the fact that those injuries added up and Crosby was a lot less aggressive after them. It’s impossible to know what he would have done after 2013 without them (keep in mind his second half of 2013-14 coincided with his wrist injury).

Yes, it seems likely McDavid will continue to be at a level going forward that’s above what Crosby was able to do after his 3 big injury season, but after 13-14, people assumed Crosby would win more Art Rosses as well, so we won’t know until it happens.

Oh sorry, after witnessing McDavid do multiple things over the past four years that most didn’t think possible, I suppose I’m not as easy going on someone who wasn’t a true generational player.

 

[Video Nasty]

Yup, he could have led the playoffs in scoring if he wanted, he sacrificed his game to win. Crosby was an absolute terror for me as a Flyers fan, and an absolute winner that we’ve never had in Philly. Mcdavid is supremely talented but if you wanna be up there with the ATG’s you simply have to win.

Crosby also sacrificed playing most of Game 7 during his first Cup win. Crickets though every time that is brought up (would it even be remembered were it not for a few people mentioning it?).