Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[eco's bones]

I've had bruised ribs before. I had to sleep sitting up, would dread if I needed to slightly cough, don't even mention taking a deep breathe.

There are for sure worse things but it's definitely not nice.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Lindgren's issue is that his defensive game fell off of a cliff last season.

It really looked like he himself and his ability to process was a step slower than we were used to seeing. His offense remained as bad as it ever has but he was out of position, a step late getting into position, would forget to tie up or lift a stick (or sometimes just space cadet a situation where he'd just watch a pass go through him and onto an opponents stick) on the regular and it's alarming. It's also why he got blown up way more than he had in other seasons too.

He shouldn't be here anymore regardless of how Fox feels about him but a 1 year deal is least bad of a bunch of increasingly bad options.

I personally think he played injured most of last season. Maybe he never heals totally but I just don't think his abilities should have diminished that much at this age without some sort of underlying issue. I don't know what the answer is but he either needs to get back to his old self or we have to move on. It might be just that physically he can't play at the same level anymore due to health.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Why shouldn’t players go where they choose? They just need to weigh salary v location and make the best decision for them and their family.

My issue was with the ntc and nobody taking actual discounts to get them. If you're making 8 mill to play a sport you should just play wherever will pay you imo. I moved to Quebec when I played, had no money, no family up there, grade 10 French. It's pretty mind boggling a guy won't go live in any city the league plays in for that kind of money. If this continues it's just gonna be the race to the same places for everyone, I mean it's already kinda happening. Half of the Canadian cities aren't destinations for u.s born players, as well as some cities in the US have issues as well. I didn't see people pining to get to Arizona or Buffalo. Those places are at a disadvantage compared to Florida, Tampa, NYR, Nash, Vegas etc. Teams have rolled over for the players in this regard. It's not like these teams are in butt F nowhere, they are in the most prominent cities in their state or province. Today's players are 10 ply soft.

 

[Synergy27]

My issue was with the ntc and nobody taking actual discounts to get them. If you're making 8 mill to play a sport you should just play wherever will pay you imo. I moved to Quebec when I played, had no money, no family up there, grade 10 French. It's pretty mind boggling a guy won't go live in any city the league plays in for that kind of money. If this continues it's just gonna be the race to the same places for everyone, I mean it's already kinda happening. Half of the Canadian cities aren't destinations for u.s born players, as well as some cities in the US have issues as well. I didn't see people pining to get to Arizona or Buffalo. Those places are at a disadvantage compared to Florida, Tampa, NYR, Nash, Vegas etc. Teams have rolled over for the players in this regard. It's not like these teams are in butt F nowhere, they are in the most prominent cities in their state or province. Today's players are 10 ply soft.

The slippery slope argument, but I agree. The current system is basically the worst of all worlds. Parity to the extent that games and often series feel like coin flips. Very little player movement of significance. Players actively using every tool at their disposal to not play in certain places/force their way to certain places.

I don’t know how you fix it though without incentives. Some places are just objectively better than others, especially in February.

 

[TominNC]

My issue was with the ntc and nobody taking actual discounts to get them. If you're making 8 mill to play a sport you should just play wherever will pay you imo. I moved to Quebec when I played, had no money, no family up there, grade 10 French. It's pretty mind boggling a guy won't go live in any city the league plays in for that kind of money. If this continues it's just gonna be the race to the same places for everyone, I mean it's already kinda happening. Half of the Canadian cities aren't destinations for u.s born players, as well as some cities in the US have issues as well. I didn't see people pining to get to Arizona or Buffalo. Those places are at a disadvantage compared to Florida, Tampa, NYR, Nash, Vegas etc. Teams have rolled over for the players in this regard. It's not like these teams are in butt F nowhere, they are in the most prominent cities in their state or province. Today's players are 10 ply soft.

They’re signing a FA contract. Why wouldn’t they choose a good location for them and their family? That’s their reward for being the best of the best. Money and destination. You can’t compare that to a kid with no money and low prospects.

The slippery slope argument, but I agree. The current system is basically the worst of all worlds. Parity to the extent that games and often series feel like coin flips. Very little player movement of significance. Players actively using every tool at their disposal to not play in certain places/force their way to certain places.

I don’t know how you fix it though without incentives. Some places are just objectively better than others, especially in February.

I don’t see the problem with any of that. It’s a long season in the winter. Why choose to play in a place you don’t like?

 

[alkurtz]

Players have finite careers that could end at any time. Unlike everyone else, they are "old" and 30 and finished at 40...if they last that long. I have no issue whatsoever with players doing what they think is best for themselves, their families, and their careers. Teams will terminate players whenever they feel they must and at a moment's notice. Yes, it makes life as a fan difficult as we want our players to bleed for the uniform as much as we do. Yes, it causes structural problems league-wide, impacting the sport in a way we might see as harmful. But that is not how it works. Yes, players make an ungodly amount of money, but their time to do so is short and they must do all they can to maximize their earning power. To not understand that is to have a narrow vision of reality. The collective bargaining agreement gives players certain rights and when they exercise those rights, well, more power to them.

 

[IDvsEGO]

My issue was with the ntc and nobody taking actual discounts to get them. If you're making 8 mill to play a sport you should just play wherever will pay you imo. I moved to Quebec when I played, had no money, no family up there, grade 10 French. It's pretty mind boggling a guy won't go live in any city the league plays in for that kind of money. If this continues it's just gonna be the race to the same places for everyone, I mean it's already kinda happening. Half of the Canadian cities aren't destinations for u.s born players, as well as some cities in the US have issues as well. I didn't see people pining to get to Arizona or Buffalo. Those places are at a disadvantage compared to Florida, Tampa, NYR, Nash, Vegas etc. Teams have rolled over for the players in this regard. It's not like these teams are in butt F nowhere, they are in the most prominent cities in their state or province. Today's players are 10 ply soft.

Mika
Panarin
CK

All took discounts for stability and NTC/NMC.

Mika was trending alot higher than 9m ( he got 8.5)
Panarin was offered more from NYI and CBJ
CK's comparable contract at the time was anders lee, who got 7x7.

Seriously this concept that they didnt take less , is a false narrative.

Trouba was given that NTC because the rangers understood his priority was his wife's career here, and they wanted goodwill the player. Trouba's deal was at the time not terrible, but the expectation was the cap would rise and it would be a good deal.

 

[kovazub94]

Mika
Panarin
CK

All took discounts for stability and NTC/NMC.

Mika was trending alot higher than 9m ( he got 8.5)
Panarin was offered more from NYI and CBJ
CK's comparable contract at the time was anders lee, who got 7x7.

Seriously this concept that they didnt take less , is a false narrative.

Trouba was given that NTC because the rangers understood his priority was his wife's career here, and they wanted goodwill the player. Trouba's deal was at the time not terrible, but the expectation was the cap would rise and it would be a good deal.

Unlike others, I think the Rangers were hoping for better performance from Trouba over this part of his contract than what he actually provided to make it a good deal (besides counting on growing cap).

 

[leetch99]

Miller is just sitting there staring us all in the face. It’s the easiest decision of all time.

Miller would likely be no better with Fox ....he is not physical nor is he a quick thinker out there other than thinking about avoiding contact whenever possible .

 

[IDvsEGO]

Unlike others, I think the Rangers were hoping for better performance from Trouba over this part of his contract than what he actually provided to make it a good deal (besides counting on growing cap).

I think Trouba was expected to be a top 4d, and provide at least a measure of defensive stability as we transitioned our entire defense.

At the time we had a very old defense and were trying to get significantly younger, and Trouba ate a lot of tough minutes that first year.

 

[Synergy27]

Miller would likely be no better with Fox ....he is not physical nor is he a quick thinker out there other than thinking about avoiding contact whenever possible .

I’m not worried about Miller being better with Fox. I’m worried about the overall performance of the pair.

Miller brings size, speed, and reach that Lindgren lacks and also compliments Fox’ physical limitations. Miller is also a very competent puck retriever, and his closing speed on back checks when he gets beat would allow Fox to be much more aggressive at 5v5.

And who knows, maybe Miller takes a step forward playing with the best D in the league and given a bigger role.

The bottom line for me is that it doesn’t look like the larger retool of the defense most of us want to happen is possible, so instead of running it back, I want to rearrange the deck chairs in a way that maximizes the potential of the players we know we like while minimizing the impact of the boat anchors.

Miller - Fox
Jones (FA/Trade) - Schneider
Lindgren - Trouba

Lindgren and Trouba make way too much money to be playing those roles but it is what it is and they might actually return on ice value as a third pair/PK stalwart.

 

[kovazub94]

I think Trouba was expected to be a top 4d, and provide at least a measure of defensive stability as we transitioned our entire defense.

At the time we had a very old defense and were trying to get significantly younger, and Trouba ate a lot of tough minutes that first year.

Going after Trouba in all context of when it happened made perfect sense and I’m not going to hold it against the FO for doing it.

 

[RangersFan1994]

I think Trouba was expected to be a top 4d, and provide at least a measure of defensive stability as we transitioned our entire defense.

At the time we had a very old defense and were trying to get significantly younger, and Trouba ate a lot of tough minutes that first year.

The d Trouba’s first year was : Tony D, Fox, Lindgren, Staal, Smith, Hajek. Not exactly old. Fox, Tony D, Lindgren were 21 and 23 years old. Staal and Smith were the oldest at 32 and 30 years old. Rangers had a youngish defense when Trouba arrived here.

 

[eco's bones]

Players have finite careers that could end at any time. Unlike everyone else, they are "old" and 30 and finished at 40...if they last that long. I have no issue whatsoever with players doing what they think is best for themselves, their families, and their careers. Teams will terminate players whenever they feel they must and at a moment's notice. Yes, it makes life as a fan difficult as we want our players to bleed for the uniform as much as we do. Yes, it causes structural problems league-wide, impacting the sport in a way we might see as harmful. But that is not how it works. Yes, players make an ungodly amount of money, but their time to do so is short and they must do all they can to maximize their earning power. To not understand that is to have a narrow vision of reality. The collective bargaining agreement gives players certain rights and when they exercise those rights, well, more power to them.

Agree mostly. There's a time span for a player. There are health risks as well but to me if you're a cop, a fireman, a soldier you also take on the risks that come with the job. It's part of being any of that. Professional athletes that reach top level can make a fantastic amount of wealth in a short period of time.....enough that should set them up forever afterwards if they're not stupid with it. In that they tend to have a much greater chance to have better lives than ordinary people. I wouldn't expect an NHL player not to maximize as much as he can. I'll just say though that a particular bane of our society is wealth disparity. There are too many who fall between the cracks. A lot more who are losing than winning. It feeds anger and resentment which is felt in the divisiveness that's in our politics.

 

[majordomo]

I’m not worried about Miller being better with Fox. I’m worried about the overall performance of the pair.

Miller brings size, speed, and reach that Lindgren lacks and also compliments Fox’ physical limitations. Miller is also a very competent puck retriever, and his closing speed on back checks when he gets beat would allow Fox to be much more aggressive at 5v5.

And who knows, maybe Miller takes a step forward playing with the best D in the league and given a bigger role.

The bottom line for me is that it doesn’t look like the larger retool of the defense most of us want to happen is possible, so instead of running it back, I want to rearrange the deck chairs in a way that maximizes the potential of the players we know we like while minimizing the impact of the boat anchors.

Miller - Fox
Jones (FA/Trade) - Schneider
Lindgren - Trouba

Lindgren and Trouba make way too much money to be playing those roles but it is what it is and they might actually return on ice value as a third pair/PK stalwart.

Maybe it's just me, but I get a bad feeling when I see Miller-Fox pairing.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Maybe it's just me, but I get a bad feeling when I see Miller-Fox pairing.

Why? Miller offsets the weaknesses that Fox has. Size, skating, and shot. Seems like they are the perfect foils.

Miller was forced to be a shutdown guy with Trouba which is not his strength. Think of all the glorious opportunities Lindgren wasted with his lack of skills, and imagine Miller in those spots instead. Seems like a no brainer .

 

[majordomo]

Why? Miller offsets the weaknesses that Fox has. Size, skating, and shot. Seems like they are the perfect foils.

Miller was forced to be a shutdown guy with Trouba which is not his strength. Think of all the glorious opportunities Lindgren wasted with his lack of skills, and imagine Miller in those spots instead. Seems like a no brainer .

As I said, it's a feeling -- something just doesn't sit right with me with that pairing. Most likely based somewhat on his not using his size and his annoying habit of poke/stick checking everyone.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

He often loses his man in the dzone, paired with Fox he’ll spend less time pinned down n and more time in transition and the offensive zone. I think it will do wonders for him.

 

[alkurtz]

Agree mostly. There's a time span for a player. There are health risks as well but to me if you're a cop, a fireman, a soldier you also take on the risks that come with the job. It's part of being any of that. Professional athletes that reach top level can make a fantastic amount of wealth in a short period of time.....enough that should set them up forever afterwards if they're not stupid with it. In that they tend to have a much greater chance to have better lives than ordinary people. I wouldn't expect an NHL player not to maximize as much as he can. I'll just say though that a particular bane of our society is wealth disparity. There are too many who fall between the cracks. A lot more who are losing than winning. It feeds anger and resentment which is felt in the divisiveness that's in our politics.

Well, as a lifelong public educator, I agree with you. And teachers in the NYC area are certainly well paid compared to elsewhere. But one thing I realized long ago is that even if we paid athletes, musicians, movie stars, less, it doesn't mean the cops, firefighters, teachers, the guys out plowing the roads in the middle of the winter, etc., will make more. So, I don't feel jealous. Envious maybe, but jealous of their wealth, no.

 

[eco's bones]

Well, as a lifelong public educator, I agree with you. And teachers in the NYC area are certainly well paid compared to elsewhere. But one thing I realized long ago is that even if we paid athletes, musicians, movie stars, less, it doesn't mean the cops, firefighters, teachers, the guys out plowing the roads in the middle of the winter, etc., will make more. So, I don't feel jealous. Envious maybe, but jealous of their wealth, no.

Maybe a way of putting it is as a generational challenge it would have been nicer if we could leave behind us a more equitable economic system. Wealth often separates people in very negative ways. I don't begrudge players getting what they can.....the owners are certainly doing very well and as well there is a lot of work that goes into being a top end athlete....though most do love the game they play.

 

[EdJovanovski]

As I said, it's a feeling -- something just doesn't sit right with me with that pairing. Most likely based somewhat on his not using his size and his annoying habit of poke/stick checking everyone.

I’m pretty sure they’ve been analytically like the best pair in the league when together

 

[Shesterkybomb]

They’re signing a FA contract. Why wouldn’t they choose a good location for them and their family? That’s their reward for being the best of the best. Money and destination. You can’t compare that to a kid with no money and low prospects.


I don’t see the problem with any of that. It’s a long season in the winter. Why choose to play in a place you don’t like?

I believe if we weren't ny fans you'd definitely have a problem with it, as it is our team is one of the destination teams. Trying to run a competitive league under a cap when certain locations have advantages over others isn't a fair cap system. For example, say Lafreniere becomes a free agent, how much more would Winnipeg have to use of their cap to bring him there vs a deal with a ntc in Tampa? The cap system isn't fair to all. While our team has tax issues compared to some, people still wanna play in NY so our ability to ice a team is easier than say ottawa under the same cap number because even though it's a good, relatively safe city, it's not as desirable as a lot of southern teams. Remove the ntc and you have easier player movement, Trouba is gone, we probably would have gotten something for Goodrow. The more moves the more exciting imo.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

I’m pretty sure they’ve been analytically like the best pair in the league when together

 

[Irishguy42]

View attachment 896299

Bobbop irl

 

[TominNC]

I believe if we weren't ny fans you'd definitely have a problem with it, as it is our team is one of the destination teams. Trying to run a competitive league under a cap when certain locations have advantages over others isn't a fair cap system. For example, say Lafreniere becomes a free agent, how much more would Winnipeg have to use of their cap to bring him there vs a deal with a ntc in Tampa? The cap system isn't fair to all. While our team has tax issues compared to some, people still wanna play in NY so our ability to ice a team is easier than say ottawa under the same cap number because even though it's a good, relatively safe city, it's not as desirable as a lot of southern teams. Remove the ntc and you have easier player movement, Trouba is gone, we probably would have gotten something for Goodrow. The more moves the more exciting imo.

It’s the same in any league with free agency. Players unions have worked hard to earn the right to have some say in where they play. If no one likes Winnipeg perhaps they shouldn’t have a team. The reserve clause went out 50 years ago in sports.