Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[PensandCaps]

Kunitz had multiple 20 goal seasons prior to arriving in Pittsburgh, including a 60 point campaign

he wasn't some scrub 3rd liner

didnt say he was.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He's comparing Sid to McD in Edmonton. Connor has spent a decent amount of time next to Leon at ES, much more than Sid played with Malkin at ES.

So his implication is supported, because Leon is much better than Kunitz and Dupuis (or any other forward on that team other than Malkin, who Sid didn't play with at ES nearly as much as McDavid has with Drai).

McDavid indeed had Draisaitl, but aside from that, Crosby's supporting cast has generally been much stronger. Not even close.

What is the Oiler's record with McDavid sidelined? The Pens without Crosby pace as roughly a second place team in a typical division - comfortably in the playoffs.

And nobody here is looking exclusively at ES, so tossing out Malkin - the 3rd best player of the generation - as if he's a non-factor in Sid's production, is illogical. Nevermind that they actually had had significant ES time together at times - including in 2009 where Malkin factored in on over 50% of Crosby's point total.

 

[PensandCaps]

Because Crosby went mental early.

And? should they have lost to the Flyers in round 1 instead? or the Caps in round 2? Id say if you look at Malkin and his stats, more of his were empty points, like in round 3 vs the weakest team in the playoffs, and in a series that wasn't close, he stacked his points in that round.

Saying he went mental early doesn't work because the Flyers and the stacked president's winning Caps team were easily better teams than Carolina.

 

[PainForShane]

No. You are wrong.

McDavid indeed had Draisaitl, but aside from that, Crosby's supporting cast has been much stronger. Not even close.

What is the Oiler's record with McDavid sidelined? The Pens without Crosby pace as a first place or second place team in a typical division.

And nobody here is looking exclusively at ES, so tossing out Malkin - the 3rd best player of the generation - as a factor in Sid's production, is illogical. Nevermind that they actually had had significant ES time together at times - including in 2009 where Malkin factored in on over 50 points for Crosby.

What exactly are you talking about?

I am talking about the fact that it is easier to score points with an elite linemate at ES (like for example Leon for multiple years) rather than whoever Sid had on his wing.

That means that Leon has more impact on Connor's overall production than Malkin did on Sid's overall offensive production (because ES scoring makes up a significant part of total scoring). If that's the point you're telling me I'm wrong about and are looking to argue, please confirm.

Regarding the team itself, I am talking about only about how the team composition affects Sid / Connor's offensive production

 

[tarheelhockey]

Is that why McDavid has won so many Cups, because the otherworldly scorer is the one who wins you the Cup?

In that case, shouldn’t Ovechkin be a tier above….. well, everyone?

I’ll take the complete player who scores at an elite level, over the the incredible goal scoring talent that isn’t as good at many other things, including intangibles.

A good team wins you the Cup.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What exactly are you talking about?

I am talking about the fact that it is easier to score points with an elite linemate at ES (like Leon for multiple years) rather than whoever Sid had on his wing.

That means that Leon has more impact on Connor's overall production than Malkin did on Sid's overall offensive production. If that's the point you're telling me I'm wrong about, please confirm.

Regarding the team itself, I am talking about only about how the team composition affects Sid / Connor's offensive production.

No, I'm telling you limiting the analysis to forward-only impacts (ignoring defensemen) and ES only impacts (inexplicably ignoring roughly 35% of all scoring, which comes on the PP) is arbitrary and unnecessary.

Total scoring impacts - inclusive of the PP, and total team impacts - inclusive of Crosby's hall of fame teammate (Letang) who has often been stapled to him - tells a more comprehensive story.

 

[Voight]

Well that's just like, you know, your opinion, man. Pretty coincidental timing that hockey matured right when Lemieux was in his prime, eh?

We've been over the whole "more modern players are bionic superheroes" argument 10,000 times on the boards here. It doesn't have any logical basis when you see the career spans of top players.

The thing is, hockey has become vastly more exclusive in the past few decades, and there is no evidence that there is a larger talent pool on a per-team basis now than there was decades ago. A bunch of countries send less players to the NHL than they did in the 90s.

Now, even *if* hockey became a global sport and everyone was hockey mad - that still doesn't guarantee that the specific circumstances and development that lead to players like a Morenz, Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux or McDavid will equally create newer better players.

This isn't a factory production line.

For some human endeavors it seems like creativity and genius tends to cluster in small areas that foster it and therefore it isn't a function of pure numbers, at all.

No surprise Penguin fans ignore the history of the game before the late 80s, there's nothing for them to care about.

This is a franchise that gained a large chunk of their fanbase in 2005.

 

[PainForShane]

No, I'm telling you limiting the analysis to forward-only impacts and ES only impacts is arbitrary.

Total scoring impacts - inclusive of the PP, and total team impacts - inclusive of Crosby's hall of fame teammate (Letang) that has at times been stapled to him - tells a more comprehensive story.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I do believe that forward / ES linemates matter much more wrt offensive production than having a HOF #1 defenseman, especially one who was not necessarily elite offensively for more than a few years.

In other words, I believe Leon's impact on Connor's production -- because they lined up together at ES much more than Sid and Malkin did -- is significantly higher than the impact of (Malkin + Letang) on Crosby's scoring.

On this point, we disagree. And that is ok.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I do believe that forward / ES linemates matter much more wrt offensive production than having a HOF #1 defenseman, especially one who was not necessarily elite offensively for more than a few years.

Since entering the NHL, Letang is 3rd in points among defensemen.

Top 3 means he is absolutely elite offensively.

 

[wetcoast]

For those who like the “adjusted stats”

View attachment 895558

Adjusted stats do not need to pretend a player who missed lots of games did not miss lots of games.

Your graphic smuggles in that revisionist extrapolation.

If you don't f*** around with magically played games and just adjust for scoring levels. McDavid outscores Crosby by 199 points through their first 9 seasons. Getting 199 extra points of offense out of a guy over the same amount of time is most certainly a tier above...

At some point people have to acknowledge that the ability to actually play in games counts for more than pretending someone played those games.

So typical when someone posts a specific stat, ie pace 2 guys have to jump in and remind us that they don't understand what pace means with a bunch of the usual distractions.

Intellectual dishonesty at it's finest here.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

and Sid got to play with MUCH better offensive defenseman in Gonchar then Letang then anything McDavid had in his 5 seasons in the league

Crosby had plenty of support

Letang was nothing special in Crosby's first 5 seasons. He was on the 3rd pairing for the most part

 

[bambamcam4ever]

McDavid indeed had Draisaitl, but aside from that, Crosby's supporting cast has generally been much stronger. Not even close.

What is the Oiler's record with McDavid sidelined? The Pens without Crosby pace as roughly a second place team in a typical division - comfortably in the playoffs.

And nobody here is looking exclusively at ES, so tossing out Malkin - the 3rd best player of the generation - as if he's a non-factor in Sid's production, is illogical. Nevermind that they actually had had significant ES time together at times - including in 2009 where Malkin factored in on over 50% of Crosby's point total.

The Penguins never ran a system that was solely designed to maximize Crosby or Malkin's talents. So of course the Penguins would do better with them out, Crosby bought into the system the coach would like to run. Can anyone imagine McDavid buying into a system where he's running a 40 second shift?

 

[wetcoast]

For those who like the “adjusted stats”

View attachment 895558

Adjusted stats do not need to pretend a player who missed lots of games did not miss lots of games.

Your graphic smuggles in that revisionist extrapolation.

If you don't f*** around with magically played games and just adjust for scoring levels. McDavid outscores Crosby by 199 points through their first 9 seasons. Getting 199 extra points of offense out of a guy over the same amount of time is most certainly a tier above...

At some point people have to acknowledge that the ability to actually play in games counts for more than pretending someone played those games.

So typical when someone posts a specific stat, ie pace 2 guys have to jump in and remind us that they don't understand what pace means with a bunch of the usual distractions.

Intellectual dishonesty at it's finest here.

For those who like the “adjusted stats”

View attachment 895558

Adjusted stats do not need to pretend a player who missed lots of games did not miss lots of games.

Your graphic smuggles in that revisionist extrapolation.

If you don't f*** around with magically played games and just adjust for scoring levels. McDavid outscores Crosby by 199 points through their first 9 seasons. Getting 199 extra points of offense out of a guy over the same amount of time is most certainly a tier above...

At some point people have to acknowledge that the ability to actually play in games counts for more than pretending someone played those games.

So typical when someone posts a specific stat, ie pace 2 guys have to jump in and remind us that they don't understand what pace means with a bunch of the usual distractions.

Intellectual dishonesty at it's finest here.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't know if Steckel did that intentionally or not, and I don't really care. But that was Crosby's lane, Steckel interfered with him.

Crosby made an abrupt U-turn. In fact Crosby looked like he was going left and then abruptly turns to his right.

There is no such thing as a "lane" that is shaped like an S curve with a u turn at the end.

It doesn't matter if he was skating in a straight line or not, you can't just skate through a guy. But since you are a Caps fan, given the NHL's extremely lenient interpretation of that rule towards Wilson and OV, you may be unaware of this

Ah yes, surely Pens fans are on a higher plane of existence when it comes to player conduct:

The Matt Cooke Appreciation Thread

Yes, I went there... Despite the negatives that came with him at times, Cooke could flat out play and was a huge boon on the PK. All the best in Minny to a guy that not everybody liked but everyone on these boards at least realized went all out night in and night out. Farewell Cooke...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Letang was nothing special in Crosby's first 5 seasons. He was on the 3rd pairing for the most part

No but Gonchar had more points in Crosby's first season then any d-man McDavid got to play with in his first 8 seasons

 

[Midnight Judges]

So typical when someone posts a specific stat, ie pace 2 guys have to jump in and remind us that they don't understand what pace means with a bunch of the usual distractions.

Intellectual dishonesty at it's finest here.





So typical when someone posts a specific stat, ie pace 2 guys have to jump in and remind us that they don't understand what pace means with a bunch of the usual distractions.

Intellectual dishonesty at it's finest here.

There is nothing in any of our posts that demonstrates a lack of understanding.

We are fundamentally rejecting the assertion that pace is the most indicative measurement in this instance - when real life accomplishments that already happened are readily available.

No but Gonchar had more points in Crosby's first season then any d-man McDavid got to play with in his first 8 seasons

The Pens blue line in general has been superior to the Oilers. Perhaps even far superior.

In 2014 the Caps picked up 2 Pens defensemen and it was massive upgrade for the Capitals.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Letang was nothing special in Crosby's first 5 seasons. He was on the 3rd pairing for the most part

3rd pairing playing 21 mins per night?

I don't think so.

 

[dgibb10]

Gretzky himself said that in his opinion, Lemieux if healthy would've broken all of his records.



Pretty sure Gretz knows more about hockey than all of us put together (by quite a lot)

Lemieux, assuming he gets 300 extra points in 93-94 and 94-95, would have still had to pace at 130 points a season until he was 39 to catch gretzky.

let's assume he got those 300 points to put him at 1800 points after his age 31 season.

Gretzky at that age was at 2263.

So he would have had to catch up 450+ points in his 30s.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Lemieux, assuming he gets 300 extra points in 93-94 and 94-95, would have still had to pace at 130 points a season until he was 39 to catch gretzky.

let's assume he got those 300 points to put him at 1800 points after his age 31 season.

Gretzky at that age was at 2263.

So he would have had to catch up 450+ points in his 30s.

Gretzky really hit the ground running in the NHL, for sure

 

[norrisnick]

So typical when someone posts a specific stat, ie pace 2 guys have to jump in and remind us that they don't understand what pace means with a bunch of the usual distractions.

Intellectual dishonesty at it's finest here.

277 points from games that were never played.

That pace really helped the Pens in the games he missed. Surely tipped the scales in their favor...

 

[bambamcam4ever]

3rd pairing playing 21 mins per night?

I don't think so.

You're correct for 09-10, my mistake. In 08-09 he played more minutes because Gonchar missed almost the whole year and then his role dropped back down for the playoffs. But he was not considered close to an elite Dman until 10-11. Like Klefbom was probably better before then

 

[dgibb10]

Gretzky really hit the ground running in the NHL, for sure

Mario got cancer in 93-94. He had 1174 points and was 27.

If, instead of getting cancer, he matched the art ross total winner every year for the next 15 years until he was 43 (2008-09), he then would have caught gretzky in points

 

[daver]

3rd pairing playing 21 mins per night?

I don't think so.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

5th in minutes among d-men

Letang was significant in only one of the Pens three Cups.

 

[daver]

IMO McDavid is better than Crosby in the same sense (but to a much lesser degree) that Gretzky was better than Messier. Both Hart level players who could give you very different contributions. Both could single-handedly put a franchise into contention under favorable conditions.

But between the two of them, there’s never really a question that you want the otherworldly scorer, over the all-round contributor with high intangibles. A McDavid level scorer is a unique weapon whose impact can’t be approximated by any other combination of players.

Crosby was as much of an outworldly scorer as McDavid. Missing games doesn't change this. Playing in a lower scoring era doesn't change this either. In fact it makes it arguably makes it harder. The best forwards are getting more TOI in the past few years as scoring gone up vs. tighter checking games during Crosby's peak.

The Oilers have tried to out-offense their opponents more often than not. Crosby gave the Pens more strategic options.

We will see if at the end of McDavid's career that he was ultimately the superior offensive player and if that superiority had more value to his team.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Mario got cancer in 93-94. He had 1174 points and was 27.

If, instead of getting cancer, he matched the art ross total winner every year for the next 15 years until he was 43 (2008-09), he then would have caught gretzky in points

a) it wasn't 93-94
b) if, in a hypothetical, people are winning Art Ross trophies in their 40s.. the hypothetical isn't very good.