Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Stephen]

Crosby's weighed down by the weight of 3x Stanley Cups.

 

[TheAngryHank]

I've been on this board long enough to remember Crosby not being the best player on his own team threads and people having legitimate arguments for Malkin.Or livewell68 murduring arguments that Crosby was better that JJ.
McDavid meanwhile is breaking Mario and Wayne records..
Crosby has greatness but when all is said and done McDavid is carving a Rushmore career.

 

[norrisnick]

I don't know if Steckel did that intentionally or not, and I don't really care. But that was Crosby's lane, Steckel interfered with him. It doesn't matter if he was skating in a straight line or not, you can't just skate through a guy. But since you are a Caps fan, given the NHL's extremely lenient interpretation of that rule towards Wilson and OV, you may be unaware of this

Why wasn't it Steckel's lane that Crosby interfered with?

One guy is skating straight ahead. He is under no obligation to yield his path to someone else that is turning into him. If there is any interference in that play, it's Crosby interfering with Steckel. As it is it's one guy not paying attention and trucking into a guy he didn't see.

 

[PainForShane]

The difference in McDavid's and Crosby's individual (not team) accolades is basically everything that HOFer Marty St Louis won.

2 Art Rosses, 1 Hart, 1 Pearson, 1 First Team All Star.

An entire HOFer worth of accolades...

And yet both Crosby and McDavid will be two of the stronger 1st ballot hall of famers in the history of the league.

Here's an illustrative analogy. I just looked at the Forbes Billionaires list (just now). Elon is #1 with 250B, Bezos is #2 with 205B. So the difference is about 45 Billion USD.

$45B is a lot of money, by itself that's more money than the entire net worth of the #29 person on the list (who incidentally is an Italian guy named Ferrero, he owns Nutella and I'm assuming Ferrero Rocher, not sure about the second). So clearly Elon is in a different financial league than Jeff Bezos, no?

Except he's not. Both Elon and Bezos are rich as hell, who cares they're close enough to each other. And they can definitely eat as much Nutella as they want regardless of whether they own the company.

***

Similarly, both Crosby and McD are good as hell at hockey and dominated their peers at roughly the same level. McDavid isn't in his own tier of dominance above Sid just like Elon isn't in his own tier of financial dominance over Bezos. Especially because McD dried up when it mattered most in his only SCF appearance thus far.

Who cares they're close enough, that's how I see it, McDavid is imo an otherworldly talent as was Sid. But imo placing the guy who hasn't won a full tier ahead of the other guy who has won (who has also played well when it mattered unlike McDavid so far) isn't at all how I would choose to characterize things.

EDIT: Decided to include the Nutella guy

 

[Letsdothis]

It's kinda backwards to say Cups matter only when the players are close. The bigger the difference between two players is, the more likely it should be to show up in whatever proxies we use to determine who is better

 

[GreatGonzo]

MSL + Stamkos was one of the best duos this league has ever seen. Of course you have to mention Stamkos in the reasoning why MSL won an Art Ross. You really love obfuscating facts.

Facts are it happens far less in todays game.

So basically stamkos HAS to come with MSL if he’s going to compete with the scoring of today?

Based on what exactly? What “facts?”

 

[GreatGonzo]

At the end of the day, Hockey is a team sport. Any player who wins everything that McDavid won, inlcuding the Conn Smythe in a historic run, especially against a beatable team like the Cats, is going to be hit by the question, 'Well, if he was that great, why didn't he hoist the Cup?

Thing is, he is that great and there is no excuse.

Being that great and then vanishing when the team needs you the most, while being their Captain, is pretty damning. The Cats won because the greatest player playing right now didn't show up in the first three games, then showed up after that and would have helped reverse swept them but suddenly vanished again in Game 7 and the Cats hoisted the Cup. Yeah, I heard he was injured too, so were others but they find ways to pull through because the team means more than how they're feeling and the ones who could find a way, won.

The team followed Captain McDavid and he was vanishing. Imo if the Oilers want to win, keep McDavid but take the C and give it to someone who will walk in the fire and keep moving. That guy isn't him.

So much context here needs to be addressed, it’s hilarious.

I’m sure it’s McDavids fault that Drai, Hyman, and Bouchard didn’t show up in the in the finals, Skinner was below .900 a majority of the playoffs, while guys like Nurse and Ceci bled goals…

Were all those “leadership” issues too?

 

[TheAngryHank]

And yet both Crosby and McDavid will be two of the stronger 1st ballot hall of famers in the history of the league.

Here's an illustrative analogy. I just looked at the Forbes Billionaires list (just now). Elon is #1 with 250B, Bezos is #2 with 205B. So the difference is about 45 Billion USD.

$45B is a lot of money, by itself that's more money than the entire net worth of the #29 person on the list (who incidentally is an Italian guy named Ferrero, he owns Nutella and I'm assuming Ferrero Rocher, not sure about the second). So clearly Elon is in a different financial league than Jeff Bezos, no?

Except he's not. Both Elon and Bezos are rich as hell, who cares they're close enough to each other. And they can definitely eat as much Nutella as they want regardless of whether they own the company.

***

Similarly, both Crosby and McD are good as hell at hockey and dominated their peers at roughly the same level. McDavid isn't in his own tier of dominance above Sid just like Elon isn't in his own tier of financial dominance over Bezos. Especially because McD dried up when it mattered most in this last series.

Who cares they're close enough, that's how I see it. But imo placing the guy who hasn't won a full tier ahead of the other guy who has won (while played well when it mattered) isn't at all how I would choose to characterize things

Difference being Crosbys career is all but over and McDavid is only hopefully half way home and it's this close..At the end people won't be comparing McDavid to Crosby.

 

[Three On Zero]

If you don't f*** around with magically played games and just adjust for scoring levels. McDavid outscores Crosby by 199 points through their first 9 seasons. Getting 199 extra points of offense out of a guy over the same amount of time is most certainly a tier above...

At some point people have to acknowledge that the ability to actually play in games counts for more than pretending someone played those games.

Scoring has also steadily increased since McDavid has been in the league

 

[TheAngryHank]

Scoring has also steadily increased since McDavid has been in the league

Leadership, McDavid has made the entire league better.

 

[PainForShane]

Difference being Crosbys career is all but over and McDavid is only hopefully half way home and it's this close..At the end people won't be comparing McDavid to Crosby.

Sure, we'll see how McD does in the future, we won't really know until both their careers are finished.

But again, to me saying McD is currently in his own tier above historical Crosby (ie topic of the thread) is not even close to accurate in my opinion. He hasn't differentiated himself enough (at least not yet), especially given Sid won multiple cups and played well in all of those playoffs

 

[TheAngryHank]

Sure, we'll see how McD does in the future, we won't really know until both their careers are finished.

But again, to me saying McD is currently in his own tier above historical Crosby (ie topic of the thread) is not even close to accurate in my opinion. He hasn't differentiated himself enough (at least not yet), especially given Sid won multiple cups and played well in all of those playoffs

Today I'll listen to arguments, but if your eyes don't see how much better McDavid is compared to the rest of the league , I might suggest an eye Dr.
Crosby also threw out a goose egg vs Boston in a sweep and didn't he get swept by the islanders ? Let's not make Crosby a unstoppable playoff god.. Malkin was way better in 09.

 

[PensandCaps]

I think people are underrating prime Crosby and what he did in low scoring league, playing with Dupuis and Kunitz. Like, I do think peak Crosby (2010-12014) is a better player.

Today I'll listen to arguments, but if your eyes don't see how much better McDavid is compared to the rest of the league , I might suggest an eye Dr.
Crosby also threw out a goose egg vs Boston in a sweep and didn't he get swept by the islanders ? Let's not make Crosby a unstoppable playoff god.. Malkin was way better in 09.

Malkin wasnt "way better" Crosby had 15 goals (lead all players) and 31 points. Malkin was better, but hardly.

 

[TheAngryHank]

I think people are underrating prime Crosby and what he did in low scoring league, playing with Dupuis and Kunitz. Like, I do think peak Crosby (2010-12014) is a better player.


Malkin wasnt "way better" Crosby had 15 goals (lead all players) and 31 points. Malkin was better, but hardly.

Because Crosby went mental early.

 

[Three On Zero]

I think people are underrating prime Crosby and what he did in low scoring league, playing with Dupuis and Kunitz. Like, I do think peak Crosby (2010-12014) is a better player.


Malkin wasnt "way better" Crosby had 15 goals (lead all players) and 31 points. Malkin was better, but hardly.

People aren’t underrating Crosby, they are overrating McDavid

 

[norrisnick]

Scoring has also steadily increased since McDavid has been in the league

That's three now that aren't paying attention. It's adjusted for league-wide scoring levels. And McDavid still outproduced Crosby by 199 over their first 9 seasons.

There is a reason people are saying McDavid's in a tier above. It's because he is.

And yet both Crosby and McDavid will be two of the stronger 1st ballot hall of famers in the history of the league.

Here's an illustrative analogy. I just looked at the Forbes Billionaires list (just now). Elon is #1 with 250B, Bezos is #2 with 205B. So the difference is about 45 Billion USD.

$45B is a lot of money, by itself that's more money than the entire net worth of the #29 person on the list (who incidentally is an Italian guy named Ferrero, he owns Nutella and I'm assuming Ferrero Rocher, not sure about the second). So clearly Elon is in a different financial league than Jeff Bezos, no?

Except he's not. Both Elon and Bezos are rich as hell, who cares they're close enough to each other. And they can definitely eat as much Nutella as they want regardless of whether they own the company.

***

Similarly, both Crosby and McD are good as hell at hockey and dominated their peers at roughly the same level. McDavid isn't in his own tier of dominance above Sid just like Elon isn't in his own tier of financial dominance over Bezos. Especially because McD dried up when it mattered most in his only SCF appearance thus far.

Who cares they're close enough, that's how I see it, McDavid is imo an otherworldly talent as was Sid. But imo placing the guy who hasn't won a full tier ahead of the other guy who has won (who has also played well when it mattered unlike McDavid so far) isn't at all how I would choose to characterize things.

EDIT: Decided to include the Nutella guy

$45B is a tier above. Several in fact. It's an entire twitter purchase...

It's like saying, "They're all HOFers, they're all really good at that hockey so nothing really separates them..."

 

[BlueSeal]

People aren’t underrating Crosby, they are overrating McDavid

There's a lot about Connor McDavid that I would gladly say, but one of them would never be "overrated".

 

[Three On Zero]

There's a lot about Connor McDavid that I would gladly say, but one of them would never be "overrated".

Almost every aspect would be outlandish, but to say he’s a tier above Crosby is very much overrating him

 

[PainForShane]

That's three now that aren't paying attention. It's adjusted for league-wide scoring levels. And McDavid still outproduced Crosby by 199 over their first 9 seasons.

There is a reason people are saying McDavid's in a tier above. It's because he is.


$45B is a tier above. Several in fact. It's an entire twitter purchase...

It's like saying, "They're all HOFers, they're all really good at that hockey so nothing really separates them..."

No, it's like saying "Crosby and McDavid will be two of the stronger 1st ballot hall of famers in the history of the league so who cares they're close enough" which is what I actually said.

Funny enough that's also what I believe, which is not the nonsense you incorrectly paraphrased my argument as

 

[norrisnick]

Almost every aspect would be outlandish, but to say he’s a tier above Crosby is very much overrating him

Do you have Mario Lemieux a tier above Guy LaFleur? Or Guy LaFleur a tier above Patrick Kane?

Because that's what a gap of a Hart/Pearson season along with a couple extra scoring titles looks like. And that's the individual separation McDavid has with Crosby (so far).

 

[Grifter3511]

This was the comment that got us started on this whole 'intellectually dishonest' path.

Ah, okay. You got ridiculously hung up on the fact that I said were instead of had been. I finally see what you're digging in on.

So in your opinion, kunitz and dupuis are perfect examples of how Crosby makes his team better and mcdavid doesn't. Fair enough. I agree to disagree. There's way too many variables to confidently state that.

 

[norrisnick]

No, it's like saying "Crosby and McDavid will be two of the stronger 1st ballot hall of famers in the history of the league so who cares they're close enough" which is what I actually said.

Right. So hand-waving away any separation on the basis that they're "strong" 1st ballot HOFers. Define strong, please, as I get the sense it's tad bit dismissive at the higher end. Kind of like hand-waving away $45B as if it's an irrelevant amount of money....

 

[PainForShane]

Right. So hand-waving away any separation on the basis that they're "strong" 1st ballot HOFers. Define strong, please, as I get the sense it's tad bit dismissive at the higher end. Kind of like hand-waving away $45B as if it's an irrelevant amount of money....

How about I don't. Next time if you want to talk to someone I'd encourage you to do a better job of pretending to understand what they actually said.

 

[nowhereman]

Oh well in that case Eric Lindros is one of the greatest players of all time.

He is one of the best players of all time, yes. What makes Crosby especially great is that he also suffered significant injuries but managed to string together one of the top 10 most impressive careers in all of history, regardless.

 

[norrisnick]

How about I don't. Next time if you want to talk to someone I'd encourage you to do a better job of pretending to understand what they actually said.

I understand what you're trying to say. I find it an entirely absurd position to take.