Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Midnight Judges]

Durability has never been a factor in assessing a players historical ranking or skill on these boards. Orr/Lemieux wouldn't be talked about among the immortal if it was.

I couldn't disagree more. Without durability, Gordie Howe isn't ranked where Gordie Howe is ranked. Same goes for hundreds of other players. Without durability, Ron Francis might not be a hall of famer. Same goes for Mike Gartner.

Wrong. But the guy on your favorite team was one of the cheap shots, so I can see how your in an odd position to defend him.

David Steckel never cheapshotted anyone in his life. He's a stand up guy who always answered the bell.

Refresh your memory. Crosby abruptly turns, with his head down, not looking where he was going, and he goes right into Steckel, face-first. Steckel, meanwhile, is skating in a straight line towards the play that Crosby is watching:

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Im not the one so invested in make believe numbers. Also, I said nothing about Stamkos

MSL + Stamkos was one of the best duos this league has ever seen. Of course you have to mention Stamkos in the reasoning why MSL won an Art Ross. You really love obfuscating facts.

What are you going on about? Facts are, they still happen in today’s game. Crosbys prime wasn’t some free for all.

Facts are it happens far less in todays game.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It works for Crosby because Sid and McD are the roughly the same tier of player. They're both the best offensive producer of their generation and have won a similar amount of individual hardware. Therefore the fact that Sid has won multiple cups, and McDavid hasn't (at least not yet) is obviously a key differentiator in their respective careers

You're over here pretending over and over that leading a team to a cup (or multiple cups) is irrelevant. It is not. You can keep pretending though, I'm sure you will.




That's not and has never been my argument (or to my knowledge, anyone else's at least not in this thread).

Sid needs to lean on the team awards because McDavid has the upper hand with the individual awards. Understood.

 

[PainForShane]

Sid needs to lean on the team awards because McDavid has the upper hand with the individual awards. Understood.

That's not what I said. You understand nothing.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Bowing out of this back and forth with this shane character for a bit.

 

[norrisnick]

It works for Crosby because Sid and McD are the roughly the same tier of player. They're both the best offensive producer of their generation and have won a similar amount of individual hardware (which you showed in your post, thank you for that). Therefore the fact that Sid has won multiple cups, and McDavid hasn't (at least not yet) is obviously a key differentiator in their respective careers.

You're over here pretending over and over that leading a team to a cup (or multiple cups) is irrelevant. It is not. You can keep pretending though, I'm sure you will. Seems like a dumb viewpoint to attach yourself to / continue to argue, but what do I know.




That's not and has never been my argument (or to my knowledge, anyone else's at least not that I've seen in this thread).

Every single post of yours in this thread has been some derivation of "lalalala Sid won that makes him better". You can't claim to use Cups as a tie breaker if there is no tie.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I couldn't disagree more. Without durability, Gordie Howe isn't ranked where Gordie Howe is ranked. Same goes for hundreds of other players. Without durability, Ron Francis might not be a hall of famer. Same goes for Mike Gartner.

That is just dumb. Gordie Howe is ranked where he is ranked because in a 13 year stretch he won 6 Art Ross and 6 Hart trophies while being one of the toughest dudes on the ice that could drop the mitts. Not because he played in his 50s.

David Steckel never cheapshotted anyone in his life. He's a stand up guy who always answered the bell.

Wrong. He cheapshotted Crosby. You just can't admit it because you are a caps superfan.

Refresh your memory. Crosby abruptly turns, with his head down, not looking where he was going, and he goes right into Steckel, face-first. Steckel, meanwhile, is skating in a straight line towards the play that Crosby is watching:

Some looney tunes level analysis there, but we can move on.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Lots of posters are trying to normalize losing in this thread, which is absolutely crazy work.

Winning the cup doesn’t make you automatically better than another player, but can definitely be used as a tiebreaker when comparing 2 players when these said players bring a similar impact for their team.

Its not being used as a tie breaker.

Its being used as an equalizer. McDavid clearly has the upper hand individually and his career isn't even half over yet.

 

[Midnight Judges]

That is just dumb. Gordie Howe is ranked where he is ranked because in a 13 year stretch he won 6 Art Ross and 6 Hart trophies while being one of the toughest dudes on the ice that could drop the mitts. Not because he played in his 50s.

You think extreme longevity is not a key part of Howe's legend.

You might be the first poster ever to make that assertion.

Wrong. He cheapshotted Crosby. You just can't admit it because you are a caps superfan.

Some looney tunes level analysis there, but we can move on.

Feel free to tell me which part is false:

Was his head down?

Was he watching where he was going?

Did he turn abruptly?

Did Steckel skate in a straight line?

Of course, you can't, because all of these assertions I made are correct, and on video. But you've been so immersed in Crosby lore that David Steckel was made into the great Satan and you are having a hard time coming off it after all these years of taking it at face value.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Its not being used as a tie breaker.

Its being used as an equalizer. McDavid clearly has the upper hand individually and his career isn't even half over yet.

He does not clearly have the upper hand individually, though. He does have more awards and more points at the same age, but has not necessarily been more dominant vs his peers than Crosby has been during their first 9 seasons, especially when you consider their all around impact on the ice.

The use of the cups arguments for Crosby to close the gap a bit or be used as a tiebreak is totally justified, even if you like it or not.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

You think extreme longevity is not part of Howe's legend.

You might be the first poster ever to make that assertion.

But we were talking about Howe's rank, not his legend, or legacy, or whatever you are trying to move the goal posts to this time. Dude, your post is like a handful of spots up, how could you forget already?

Without durability, Gordie Howe isn't ranked where Gordie Howe is ranked.

 

[Midnight Judges]

But we were talking about Howe's rank, not his legend, or legacy, or whatever you are trying to move the goal posts to this time. Dude, your post is like a handful of spots up, how could you forget already?

Those two things are virtually synonymous. You don't have a point.

 

[Bank Shot]

Angelo Esposito was traded less than a year after he was drafted while he was still in junior (never played in the NHL). Clearly it's Sid's fault he never played in the NHL since he spent all of his development time in the Blackhawks' org. And Sprong was a second rounder who played a total of 42 games for the Pens before getting traded.

Pretty obvious you're just picking out random names and have no idea what you're talking about. What a fail by you.

Why would the org trade any prospect when Crosby has the magic ability to turn anybody into a somebody?

I heard he helped goalies make more saves and such as well.

 

[PainForShane]

Every single post of yours in this thread has been some derivation of "lalalala Sid won that makes him better". You can't claim to use Cups as a tie breaker if there is no tie.

I agree. What I am saying is that without the cup, in my opinion McDavid and Sid are pretty tied (at least they are close enough). So the cup is a pretty significant tiebreaker or at least an equalizer that brings them even or close to it, keeping them in the same tier of player.

To be clear, I personally believe that the way Sid plays in pressure situations / elevates his teammates is significant and contributed to the cup win that puts Sid ahead. But I think at the very least it very clearly prevents McDavid from being a tier above.

***

You can disagree if you want, but Kris Draper is definitely not the same tier as Crosby so your previous post was not relevant to the discussion

 

[TheAngryHank]

I'll get ripped for this but whatever.
every era has its guys that were pure must see..90s it was Mario / Feds / sometimes JJ / Bure.. The eye test for me if one way to judge that type of talent and Mario and Feds always delivered.
Crosby would play a hard game like everyone and walk away with 2 points but low key how he did it . Meanwhile Dats and Malkin were looking every bit better,so Crosby is kinda hard to compare.
McDavid is so much like Mario, he just flat out looks so much better than everyone else while the numbers prove it.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

[MOD]

I'll get ripped for this but whatever.
every era has its guys that were pure must see..90s it was Mario / Feds / sometimes JJ / Bure.. The eye test for me if one way to judge that type of talent and Mario and Feds always delivered.
Crosby would play a hard game like everyone and walk away with 2 points but low key how he did it . Meanwhile Dats and Malkin were looking every bit better,so Crosby is kinda hard to compare.
McDavid is so much like Mario, he just flat out looks so much better than everyone else while the numbers prove it.

You actually had me until on the last one. McDavid is so much more like Bure, and Malkin is so much more like Mario.

 

[Frank Drebin]

He does not clearly have the upper hand individually, though. He does have more awards and more points at the same age, but has not necessarily been more dominant vs his peers than Crosby has been during their first 9 seasons, especially when you consider their all around impact on the ice.

The use of the cups arguments for Crosby to close the gap a bit or be used as a tiebreak is totally justified, even if you like it or not.

They can use it as a gap closer as much as they like.

 

[Felidae]

You think extreme longevity is not part of Howe's legend.

You might be the first poster ever to make that assertion.

I mean, it's both.

You and the poster you are quoting are both right.

His dominance during his best years are beaten only by Gretzky and Lemieux. But it's his unrivaled elite longevity that makes his case strong against players like Orr and Lemieux who peaked higher but flamed out faster due to injuries.

If he "only' had 20+ top 10 scoring seasons without actually coming out ahead of his competition, there isn't much separating him from players like Bourque, Crosby, Beliveau etc.

But if he had nothing much outside of those years he took home awards, he'd be moderately stronger version of players like Esposito, Lafleur etc.

Obviously those are just rough estimations, but if he didn't have one without the other he wouldn't have solidified himself as a top 2-4 player of all time.

 

[Frank Drebin]

They’re definitely in the same tier. They have different skill sets, but bring a similar impact to their team.

FWIW, here is Crosby vs top 10 players in ppg for his first 9 seasons (2006 to 2014) and McDavid vs top 10 players in ppg for his first 9 seasons (2016 to 2024)

2006-2014 (min 300 GP)

Crosby - 1,40
Malkin - 1,22
Ovechkin - 1,20
Thornton - 1,11
Spezza - 1,06
Datsyuk - 1,06
Savard - 1,04
Stamkos - 1,04
Kovalchuk - 1,04
St. Louis - 1,04

2016-2024 (min 300 GP)

McDavid - 1,52
Kucherov - 1,34
MacKinnon - 1,24
Draisaitl - 1,23
Panarin - 1,16
Matthews - 1,15
Crosby - 1,15
Pastrnak - 1,11
Kane - 1,11
Marner - 1,11

Similar environments with Crosby/McDavid separating themselves from the pack with 3-4 other players and then a logjam from 5th to 10th.

Why are you excluding their rookie seasons?

 

[BlueSeal]

Its not being used as a tie breaker.

Its being used as an equalizer. McDavid clearly has the upper hand individually and his career isn't even half over yet.

At the end of the day, Hockey is a team sport. Any player who wins everything that McDavid won, inlcuding the Conn Smythe in a historic run, especially against a beatable team like the Cats, is going to be hit by the question, 'Well, if he was that great, why didn't he hoist the Cup?

Thing is, he is that great and there is no excuse.

Being that great and then vanishing when the team needs you the most, while being their Captain, is pretty damning. The Cats won because the greatest player playing right now didn't show up in the first three games, then showed up after that and would have helped reverse swept them but suddenly vanished again in Game 7 and the Cats hoisted the Cup. Yeah, I heard he was injured too, so were others but they find ways to pull through because the team means more than how they're feeling and the ones who could find a way, won.

The team followed Captain McDavid and he was vanishing. Imo if the Oilers want to win, keep McDavid but take the C and give it to someone who will walk in the fire and keep moving. That guy isn't him.

 

[norrisnick]

I agree. What I am saying is that without the cup, in my opinion McDavid and Sid are pretty tied (at least they are close enough). So the cup is a pretty significant tiebreaker or at least an equalizer that brings them even or close to it, keeping them in the same tier of player.

To be clear, I personally believe that the way Sid plays in pressure situations / elevates his teammates is significant and contributed to the cup win that puts Sid ahead. But I think at the very least it very clearly prevents McDavid from being a tier above.

***

You can disagree if you want, but Kris Draper is definitely not the same tier as Crosby so your previous post was not relevant to the discussion

The difference in McDavid's and Crosby's individual (not team) accolades is basically everything that HOFer Marty St Louis won.

2 Art Rosses, 1 Hart, 1 Pearson, 1 First Team All Star.

An entire HOFer worth of accolades...

 

[Frank Drebin]

At the end of the day, Hockey is a team sport. Any player who wins everything that McDavid won, inlcuding the Conn Smythe in a historic run, especially against a beatable team like the Cats, is going to be hit by the question, 'Well, if he was that great, why didn't he hoist the Cup?

Thing is, he is that great and there is no excuse.

Being that great and then vanishing when the team needs you the most, while being their Captain, is pretty damning. The Cats won because the greatest player playing right now didn't show up in the first three games, then showed up after that and would have helped reverse swept them but suddenly vanished again in Game 7 and the Cats hoisted the Cup. Yeah, I heard he was injured too, so were others but they find ways to pull through because the team means more than how they're feeling and the ones who could find a way, won.

The team followed Captain McDavid and he was vanishing. Imo if the Oilers want to win, keep McDavid but take the C and give it to someone who will walk in the fire and keep moving. That guy isn't him.

Yawn

stopped reading when I read "vanished"

 

[bambamcam4ever]

You think extreme longevity is not a key part of Howe's legend.

You might be the first poster ever to make that assertion.



Feel free to tell me which part is false:

Was his head down?

Was he watching where he was going?

Did he turn abruptly?

Did Steckel skate in a straight line?

Of course, you can't, because all of these assertions I made are correct, and on video. But you've been so immersed in Crosby lore that David Steckel was made into the great Satan and you are having a hard time coming off it after all these years of taking it at face value.

I don't know if Steckel did that intentionally or not, and I don't really care. But that was Crosby's lane, Steckel interfered with him. It doesn't matter if he was skating in a straight line or not, you can't just skate through a guy. But since you are a Caps fan, given the NHL's extremely lenient interpretation of that rule towards Wilson and OV, you may be unaware of this

 

[TheAngryHank]

Talk about opening your mouth and removing all doubt. Cheers.


You actually had me until on the last one. McDavid is so much more like Bure, and Malkin is so much more like Mario.

Your not wrong as far as play style goes ,Bure/ McDavid with explosive speed and Mario/Malkin with size and power.
My Mario / McDavid comparison is the visual jaw dropping " wait did he just do that ,no f***ing way..that's impossible " sees replay...WTF..how?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Why are you excluding their rookie seasons?

They are included, I just used the last year of the seasons in which they played in. Crosby’s rookie year was 2005-2006 and McDavid’s rookie year was 2015-2016.