Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[PainForShane]

I understand what you're trying to say. I find it an entirely absurd position to take.

Based on the quality of this interaction I'm not entirely sure you do. But if you think you do then from my perspective I am 100% good with that

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

I place Howe on a tier above Lemieux and Orr. So does Wayne Gretzky.

That’s not hard to justify at all. Howe has double the MVPs as those guys and much greater longevity too.

If Gretzky was responsible for ranking best NHL players ever, he would probably rank himself somewhere between 15-30th...he's a subtle troll.

 

[norrisnick]

Based on the quality of this interaction I'm not entirely sure you do. But if you think you do then from my perspective I am 100% good with that

You think Crosby and McDavid are super good at hockey.
Really good and about the same because both will be strong 1st ballot HOFers.
You have ascribed magical powers to Crosby that has made the Penguins a better team.
And Crosby's magical abilities allowed the lesser Penguins to carry Crosby to triumph whereas McDavid is devoid of such magical abilities.
The lack of these magical abilities thereby negates any and all differences in actual on ice play by these two.
A 3 point Final is better than an 11 point Final because the players around Crosby were better than the players around McDavid.
And the players around Crosby were better because of the aforementioned magical aura that makes heroes of mere mortals.
A Hart, 3 Art Rosses, and Pearson are an insignificant difference in accolades.
Much like $45B is an insignificant amount of money to separate two really rich f***ers.
And then something about Nutella, but I was mostly checked out at that point...

 

[mattihp]

If Gretzky was responsible for ranking best NHL players ever, he would probably rank himself somewhere between 15-30th...he's a subtle troll.

He seems like a cheerleader for any player who ever did something good.

 

[PainForShane]

You think Crosby and McDavid are super good at hockey.
Really good and about the same because both will be strong 1st ballot HOFers.
You have ascribed magical powers to Crosby that has made the Penguins a better team.
And Crosby's magical abilities allowed the lesser Penguins to carry Crosby to triumph whereas McDavid is devoid of such magical abilities.
The lack of these magical abilities thereby negates any and all differences in actual on ice play by these two.
A 3 point Final is better than an 11 point Final because the players around Crosby were better than the players around McDavid.
And the players around Crosby were better because of the aforementioned magical aura that makes heroes of mere mortals.
A Hart, 3 Art Rosses, and Pearson are an insignificant difference in accolades.
Much like $45B is an insignificant amount of money to separate to really rich f***ers.
And then something about Nutella, but I was mostly checked out at that point...

Three of the above nine statements accurately represent what I believe.

Pretty sure you're still checked out at this point, I don't know how you or anyone else could come up with the level of nonsense required for the other six

 

[Video Nasty]

Can’t wait to listen to the same lame arguments for Crosby when McDavid has 2000 career points, continues to rank 3rd or 4th in career PPG, has 7+ Art Rosses, 4+ Harts, 5+ Lindsays, multiple Cups and Conn Smythes, 10+ top 2 raw scoring and PPG finishes, has 250 playoff points, and so on.

It’s close at best for Crosby right now with McDavid playing 10 fewer seasons. Going to be a laughable gap between the two when it’s all said and done. These threads will be dug up and people will scratch their heads wondering why they couldn’t see it all coming back in 2018, let alone 2024.

 

[BlueSeal]

You think Crosby and McDavid are super good at hockey.
Really good and about the same because both will be strong 1st ballot HOFers.
You have ascribed magical powers to Crosby that has made the Penguins a better team.
And Crosby's magical abilities allowed the lesser Penguins to carry Crosby to triumph whereas McDavid is devoid of such magical abilities.
The lack of these magical abilities thereby negates any and all differences in actual on ice play by these two.
A 3 point Final is better than an 11 point Final because the players around Crosby were better than the players around McDavid.
And the players around Crosby were better because of the aforementioned magical aura that makes heroes of mere mortals.
A Hart, 3 Art Rosses, and Pearson are an insignificant difference in accolades.
Much like $45B is an insignificant amount of money to separate two really rich f***ers.
And then something about Nutella, but I was mostly checked out at that point...

Crosby has 2 Conn Smythes and his name on both Cups. McDavid has one Conn Smythe with historic numbers and lost.

 

[Fourier]

That makes absolutely no sense but okay.

In reality we have a record setting performance by him and a playoff MVP.

If McDavid was a better player Skinner stops the second goal and Bouchard coverts on his very near miss. Alas it was not so.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

So basically stamkos HAS to come with MSL if he’s going to compete with the scoring of today?

Based on what exactly? What “facts?”

Based on the fact that Stamkos HAS to come with MSL to compete with Crosby in scoring in 2013.

Do I have to hold your hand through your own hypotheticals? Please try to keep up with the ridiculous BS you are spewing, or don’t expect engagement.

 

[crowfish]

Crosby has 2 Conn Smythes and his name on both Cups. McDavid has one Conn Smythe with historic numbers and lost.

Question of the day:

Why didn't Crosby win the Conn Smythe in his first losing Cup finals ala McDavid?

 

[Midnight Judges]

He is one of the best players of all time, yes. What makes Crosby especially great is that he also suffered significant injuries but managed to string together one of the top 10 most impressive careers in all of history, regardless.

I personally agree with that.

However, I am disagreeing with people who claim longevity is worth practically nothing (which IMO is unrealistic, unsupportable, unindicative, and in all likelihood inconsistently applied).

 

[Midnight Judges]

I think people are underrating prime Crosby and what he did in low scoring league, playing with Dupuis and Kunitz.

Kunitz and Dupuis (60 and 48 point players away from Crosby) were perfectly fine linemates. Additionally, the two of them took on the defensive responsibilities that some C's typically take on.

Nevermind that Crosby has significant ice time with Malkin and has at times been stapled to Letang - both hall of famers.

The Penguins have been a very good team without Crosby - often having a points percentage ranging from .620% to .714% in extended time without Crosby. It's a very large sample size.

Your implication that Sid was at some sort of a disadvantage is not supported. They aren't the Sabres.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Crosby has 2 Conn Smythes and his name on both Cups. McDavid has one Conn Smythe with historic numbers and lost.

what's your point? unfortunately, the Oilers couldn't find a Talbot in game 7 to get them a victory like Crosby did (who also had 0 points in Game 6 and 7 in 2009)

Crosby also lost his first time in the Finals

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I think people are underrating prime Crosby and what he did in low scoring league, playing with Dupuis and Kunitz. Like, I do think peak Crosby (2010-12014) is a better player.

Kunitz had multiple 20 goal seasons prior to arriving in Pittsburgh, including a 60 point campaign

he wasn't some scrub 3rd liner

 

[Ogelthorpe]

IMO McDavid is better than Crosby in the same sense (but to a much lesser degree) that Gretzky was better than Messier. Both Hart level players who could give you very different contributions. Both could single-handedly put a franchise into contention under favorable conditions.

But between the two of them, there’s never really a question that you want the otherworldly scorer, over the all-round contributor with high intangibles. A McDavid level scorer is a unique weapon whose impact can’t be approximated by any other combination of players.

Is that why McDavid has won so many Cups, because the otherworldly scorer is the one who wins you the Cup?

In that case, shouldn’t Ovechkin be a tier above….. well, everyone?

I’ll take the complete player who scores at an elite level, over the the incredible goal scoring talent that isn’t as good at many other things, including intangibles.

 

[PainForShane]

Kunitz had multiple 20 goal seasons prior to arriving in Pittsburgh, including a 60 point campaign

he wasn't some scrub 3rd liner

He might has well have been compared to Leon (who as everyone knows routinely plays alongside McD at ES).

Unless you're arguing that Kunitz and Leon are a similar tier of player, if so good luck with that.

 

[PainForShane]

Kunitz and Dupuis (60 and 48 point players away from Crosby) were perfectly fine linemates. Additionally, the two of them took on the defensive responsibilities that some C's typically take on.

Nevermind that Crosby has significant ice time with Malkin and has at times been stapled to Letang - both hall of famers.

The Penguins have been a very good team without Crosby - often having a points percentage ranging from .620% to .714% in extended time without Crosby. It's a very large sample size.

Your implication that Sid was at some sort of a disadvantage is not supported. They aren't the Sabres.

He's comparing Sid to McD in Edmonton. Connor has spent a decent amount of time next to Leon at ES, much more than Sid played with Malkin at ES.

So his implication is supported, because Leon is much better than Kunitz and Dupuis (or any other forward on that team other than Malkin, who Sid didn't play with at ES nearly as much as McDavid has with Drai).

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Leadership, McDavid has made the entire league better.

Goaltending is a lot worse now, and more so in the Western Conference than the East, so obviously not the entire league.

Question of the day:

Why didn't Crosby win the Conn Smythe in his first losing Cup finals ala McDavid?

Because as he did throughout pretty much his entire prime, Crosby played against better opponents.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

He's comparing Sid to McD in Edmonton. Connor has spent a decent amount of time next to Leon at ES, much more than Sid played with Malkin at ES.

So his implication is supported, because Leon is much better than Kunitz and Dupuis (or any other forward on that team other than Malkin, who Sid didn't play with at ES nearly as much as McDavid has with Drai).

and Sid got to play with MUCH better offensive defenseman in Gonchar then Letang then anything McDavid had in his 5 seasons in the league

Crosby had plenty of support

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Do you have Mario Lemieux a tier above Guy LaFleur? Or Guy LaFleur a tier above Patrick Kane?

Because that's what a gap of a Hart/Pearson season along with a couple extra scoring titles looks like. And that's the individual separation McDavid has with Crosby (so far).

So scoring titles are impressive when McDavid wins them, but not when Jamie Benn wins them?

 

[PainForShane]

and Sid got to play with MUCH better offensive defenseman in Gonchar then Letang then anything McDavid had in his 5 seasons in the league

Crosby had plenty of support

And McDavid has more support than Crosby did, at least offensively.

Re: d-men, Bouchard is pretty good offensively now, and Barrie was at times. The gap in defenseman isn't all that much as it strictly pertains to offense, not even close enough to make up for the offensive advantage of regularly playing alongside Leon at ES.

And lastly McDavid just finished his ninth season in the league, not his 5th. For now, I'm assuming that was a typo but that's something you should probably know if you didn't already

 

[norrisnick]

So scoring titles are impressive when McDavid wins them, but not when Jamie Benn wins them?

I'm pretty sure you have me confused with someone. Scoring titles are pretty darn impressive. Particularly 5 of them.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

And McDavid had more support than Crosby did.

nope...Crosby had Malkin winning scoring titles in the regular season and Playoffs, including a Conn Smythe in 2009, then 80 point-man Phil Kessel coming in and leading the team in scoring the 2016 playoffs
Oilers have never brought in a player of the caliber of Kessel onto the team...just McDavid turning 2nd liners like Hyman into 50-goal scorers...

perhaps it's just McDavid elevating his teammates like the Superstar he is

Re: d-men, Bouchard is pretty good offensively now, and Barrie was at times. The gap in defenseman isn't all that much as it strictly pertains to offense, not even close enough to make up for the offensive advantage of regularly playing alongside Leon at ES.

they didn't "play regularly" on the same line the past couple years...false
and yes, having true a puck-moving offensive defensemen makes a huge difference

And lastly McDavid just finished his ninth season in the league, not his 5th. For now, I'm assuming that was a typo but that's something you should probably know if you didn't already

I'm saying the Oilers didn't have a Gonchar on their team to start McDavid's career and it wasn't until Barrie joined the team in McDavid's 6th year that they finally got a true puck moving offensive defenseman

before Tyson Barrie arrived, the highest scoring d-man on the team was 41 points in 18-19 by Nurse
Crosby had Gonchar scoring 58 points in his rookie year alone, followed by 67 and 65 points

 

[BlueAzN]

Connor McDonald is the better player.
Sid Crusty has the better resume.
/thread

 

[Fatass]

McDavid is great. But if I’m starting a club it’s Crosby. The Oilers were stacked this playoffs and McDavid still couldn’t get it done. Crosby, imo, accomplished more with less.