Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[dgibb10]

a) it wasn't 93-94
b) if, in a hypothetical, people are winning Art Ross trophies in their 40s.. the hypothetical isn't very good.

A) ahh yes. It wouldn't change any of the numbers I mentioned considering he won the art ross in 92-93, and I replaced 93-94 with the art ross winner's points anyway
B) Yes, that was the point, to show just how far away he was from getting to Gretzky

 

[Dion TheFluff]

 

[norrisnick]

a) it wasn't 93-94
b) if, in a hypothetical, people are winning Art Ross trophies in their 40s.. the hypothetical isn't very good.

Pretty sure that's the point. Addressing the absurdity that Mario could catch Wayne when he was never on pace to match and the game significantly changed to the detriment of scoring.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby was as much of an outworldly scorer as McDavid. Missing games doesn't change this. Playing in a lower scoring era doesn't change this either. In fact it makes it arguably makes it harder. The best forwards are getting more TOI in the past few years as scoring gone up vs. tighter checking games during Crosby's peak.

The Oilers have tried to out-offense their opponents more often than not. Crosby gave the Pens more strategic options.

We will see if at the end of McDavid's career that he was ultimately the superior offensive player and if that superiority had more value to his team.

i would love to hear about these “strategic options”

 

[Grifter3511]

Kunitz had multiple 20 goal seasons prior to arriving in Pittsburgh, including a 60 point campaign

he wasn't some scrub 3rd liner

I stated this quite clearly earlier in this thread, but apparently I was being intellectually dishonest. Crosby is solely responsible for these players.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

It was entertaining at first, but its taken a turn into really really sad territory to see folks spending literally thousands of hours and more than a decade focusing their attention and emotional energy just tearing down one single player with any kind of mental gymnastics possible and the same arguments for years. The bitterness required to do this is a bit unsettling, at best.


Anyway, as for the thread topic. McDavid is a hell of a player and is certainly above Crosby in terms of offensive point production, but it's hard to say there's any player in the league who is "a tier above" Side from a holistic point of view.

People who watch him a lot will, of course, tend to overrate him. People who don't watch him will tend to underrate him. And with most things in life, the truth is in the middle. Personally, I think it's probably closer to the side of the people who actually watch the games, but that's just me.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Crosby had a few years where we all know he would’ve been good for 120-130+ points.

His injuries hampered his prime at the age McDavid is now.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Crosby was as much of an outworldly scorer as McDavid.

I have plenty of respect for Crosby’s abilities, but a 120 point peak and a 153 point peak are not the same tier of offensive production. Trends in scoring rates don’t explain that near-30% difference.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

View attachment 895699

"Pace" lol

Crosby played 22 games in year 7

 

[Midnight Judges]

It was entertaining at first, but its taken a turn into really really sad territory to see folks spending literally thousands of hours and more than a decade focusing their attention and emotional energy just tearing down one single player with any kind of mental gymnastics possible...

After 18 years of slandering Ovechkin, those of you in the Crosby camp do not have a leg to stand on in making these types of statements.

"Pace" lol

Crosby played 22 games in year 7

That's a 153 point (22 game) season!

Why are you so mean to Crosby? It's sad territory that you are focusing your emotional energy into tearing down one single player!

 

[Frank Drebin]

"Pace" lol

Crosby played 22 games in year 7

McDavid paced for 50 points in the 22 playoffs (24 game pace)
Paced for 40 last playoffs
42 points this year


Thats 132 points over 3 playoff years.

Has any player ever done that before?

 

[TheAngryHank]

No surprise Penguin fans ignore the history of the game before the late 80s, there's nothing for them to care about.

This is a franchise that gained a large chunk of their fanbase in 2005.

05 is when ice was invented.

 

[Beau Knows]

I think so. I think the top 4 all-time are in a tier by themselves. Then you have another tier at like 5-10ish consisting of players like Crosby, Hull, Bourque.

I think McDavid might be able to join that first tier. If not I think he'd be kind of an outlier at #5 in a tier of his own between those two groups.

 

[BraveCanadian]

McDavid paced for 50 points in the 22 playoffs (24 game pace)
Paced for 40 last playoffs
42 points this year


Thats 132 points over 3 playoff years.

Has any player ever done that before?

TBH I didn't even check I just assume with high confidence. You know, since Gretzky is the best playoff performer ever.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

After 18 years of slandering Ovechkin, those of you in the Crosby camp do not have a leg to stand on in making these types of statements.



That's a 153 point (22 game) season!

Why are you so mean to Crosby? It's sad territory that you are focusing your emtoaionl energy into tearing down one single player!

Bizarre response to my comment, MJ. But that's what I've come to expect.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I think so. I think the top 4 all-time are in a tier by themselves. Then you have another tiers at like 5-10ish consisting of players like Crosby, Hull, Bourque.

I think McDavid might be able to join that first tier. If not I think he'd be kind of an outlier at #5 in a tier of his own between those two groups.

yep

View attachment 895715

TBH I didn't even check I just assume with high confidence. You know, since Gretzky is the best playoff performer ever.

nope

38
35
47

best 3 year stretch

 

[BraveCanadian]

38
35
47

best 3 year stretch

Oh Gretzky doesn't get pace in this either?

Cause that is 120 over a 3 year stretch without having to pretend.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Oh Gretzky doesn't get pace in this either?

Cause that is 120 over a 3 year stretch without having to pretend.

oh shoot i didnt check gp lol

I thought hed have raw totals tbh

I guess I didnt bother to add totals either lol

 

[nturn06]

View attachment 895699

IMO, it is exactly this type of skewed "adjusting" which makes a good point that McD is one class above Crosby....If that's the type of argument one needs to make, then they should not

McDavid paced for 50 points in the 22 playoffs (24 game pace)
Paced for 40 last playoffs
42 points this year


Thats 132 points over 3 playoff years.

Has any player ever done that before?

Yeah, Crosby has done that multiple times, but only if the stats are "era-adjusted" properly....

 

[admiralcadillac]

I have plenty of respect for Crosby’s abilities, but a 120 point peak and a 153 point peak are not the same tier of offensive production. Trends in scoring rates don’t explain that near-30% difference.

Yeah but he was on pace for 132 points as well. His peak production was the years he was injured.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah but he was on pace for 132 points as well. His peak production was the years he was injured.

On pace =/= actual production…

Crosby is always “on pace” when it comes to his peak and it over glorifies his play all while many of his lovers adore using partial seasons because they get to use the magical stats that make him appear better than he was.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yeah but he was on pace for 132 points as well. His peak production was the years he was injured.

Ok, but even if we assume he would have hit that pace for a full season (which he never did) there is still a substantial gap. Kucherov hit 144 points this year, which is well beyond anything Crosby did or paced to do, and nobody is suggesting Kucherov is a McDavid level offensive force.

McDavid is simply a special talent. There have been maybe 5 guys like this in the entire history of the game, and he is one of them.

 

[Regal]

Ok, but even if we assume he would have hit that pace for a full season (which he never did) there is still a substantial gap. Kucherov hit 144 points this year, which is well beyond anything Crosby did or paced to do, and nobody is suggesting Kucherov is a McDavid level offensive force.

McDavid is simply a special talent. There have been maybe 5 guys like this in the entire history of the game, and he is one of them.

Kucherov doesn’t come close to 144 points in the 2010-2014 seasons. You’re really underrating the huge difference in scoring levels. 132 points in 2010-11 would be the equivalent of 149 points today just adjusted based on league GPG. Crosby’s PPG dominance over his peers from 2010-11 to 2013-14 is actually better than McDavid’s over the past 4 years.

2010-2014
Crosby 1.47
Malkin 1.20
Stamkos 1.14
St.Louis 1.05
Giroux 1.05

2020-2024
McDavid 1.74
Kucherov 1.55
MacKinnon 1.52
Draisaitl 1.44
Panarin 1.30

The difference obviously is that competition changes a bit year to year and he didn’t play enough games to suggest it was sustainable. But even if we give him only 1 point per game for the 115 games he missed in that time frame, which is extremely unlikely considering he has a 1.25 PPG for his career, we’d still be looking at a situation where he was well above his peers at a 1.29 PPG (nearly a quarter of a point per game over 4th place).

McDavid’s proved himself over full seasons and he looks like he’s going to be dominant for longer, but in terms of per game production there isn’t a huge gap between them over their first 9 years.

 

[PainForShane]

I stated this quite clearly earlier in this thread, but apparently I was being intellectually dishonest. Crosby is solely responsible for these players.

No one has argued this idea during this thread, nor does anyone believe it.

You are still being intellectually dishonest.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Ok, but even if we assume he would have hit that pace for a full season (which he never did) there is still a substantial gap. Kucherov hit 144 points this year, which is well beyond anything Crosby did or paced to do, and nobody is suggesting Kucherov is a McDavid level offensive force.

McDavid is simply a special talent. There have been maybe 5 guys like this in the entire history of the game, and he is one of them.

132 points + a 15% increase in scoring is 152 points. And that's not even getting into how top line players have disproportionately benefited from the scoring increase. Crosby's points per game leads have been more impressive than McDavid's.

And Kucherov scoring 144 pts McDavid's totals into perspective, as he's clearly a worse player than Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin were.