Interesting Marner note

[acrobaticgoalie]

Well would you rather their 4 1sts or Marner if you are them

4x 1sts

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Again I don’t care if I get crucified for this. But Marner isn’t overpaid. The NHL salary cap is designed by ownership to pay players lower than their actual worth. The NHL owners have been so successful at creating this sentiment that players should be for the team (which they should to a certain extent). But there are so many players league wide that are underpaid. It’s actually crazy to me that the players don’t take more control like in other major sports.

Although it was horrible for our team it was really refreshing to see a player demand what they are probably are worth.

I think it’s fair to say Marner is logically worth his salary but in the cap system it’s probably not the best idea to pay players their true value.

"Marner isn't overpaid. It's just that all of his direct comparables are underpaid." Interesting take.

Sometimes I'm literally bewildered by what I read on these forums...

 

[Leafsfan74]

They can and we will quote from dubas showed how green of a GM he was. If it were me, I’d say something like”go ahead, offersheet my players, I’ll take the 4 1sts and run and use the cap room on ufa’s”

His logic was in trying to discourage the offer at all by letting them know they will match. I would have gone further and said "they are free to do so to our players just as we are free to do so to theirs" and just let the passive-aggressive statement trail off...

We saw what the Canes did to the Habs. Call it petty but in competitive sports you need to protect your turf or you will get trampled. Be professional but firm.

As it were, having 4 First Rounr picks and an extra $10M in cap space is huge for any team. Hell, you could flip those picks with other sweeteners to pick up fairly cheap budding stars and build around them.

You may not get a Marner, but you would have a deeper team and avoid the current roster chsllenges Leafs perpetually face with thier current top heavy structure.

 

[Tak7]

It was well known and reported - I remember Friedman discussing it on 32 Thoughts Podcast, right before he had that cryptic warning about "hoping Marner has the right people advising him".

 

[Throw More Waffles]

None of them were anything close to "unprecedented dramatic overpayments". We know two things as fact. One - that Marner was not overpaid. We know this by looking at the history of post-ELC contracts in the cap era, and how he fits in relative to his performance up to and at the point of signing. Two - that Marner received 2 offer sheets. We know this not from "Dubas and his team", but from Marner himself.

Based on what was reported (Columbus was one of those teams, Columbus wanted high term, Columbus believed we would match by trading Nylander, speculation of ~13m x 7), and just how offer sheets are generally constructed, the only logical conclusion is that it was in the four 1sts range. Not only is any range below that unrealistic for a contract, let alone an offer sheet, at high term for a player like Marner, but if Columbus was offering a cap hit less than what Marner got (which we fit without trading Nylander), there would have been no reason for Columbus to discuss us trading Nylander in order to fit it in.

No, the most logical conclusion is that the "alleged" offer sheet was a made up/exaggerated story used for leverage by Marner's team. It wouldn't have worked on a veteran gm. But we had a rookie who "was learning as he goes". That's BY FAR the most logical conclusion. Not (lol) 13mx7.

Can you imagine? Dubas faced A TON of heat for the 10.9x6 unprecedented dramatic overpayment. Can you imagine THIRTEEN as well as FOUR first round picks? Lol. It's literally amazing that some people believe this insanity.

 

[Tak7]

Yeah this was reported after Marner signed and the Dubas propaganda outlets in Toronto went into overdrive to use it to rationalize the unprecedented dramatic overpayment.

It was reported well before Marner signed

Can you imagine? Dubas faced A TON of heat for the 10.9x6 unprecedented dramatic overpayment. Can you imagine THIRTEEN as well as FOUR first round picks? Lol. It's literally amazing that some people believe this insanity.

The Columbus offer was 12.5m, which David Pagnotta reported at the time.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

It was reported well before Marner signed


The Columbus offer was 12.5m, which David Pagnotta reported at the time.

"Insider" speculation is not "reporting". Look at how often they're wrong about trade rumours and signings and such. It's amazing I had to even write those sentences.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I dont buy the offer sheet crap. Like Dregs was called out for, why with all the talent that was up for RFA contracts was Marner the only one being talked about as offer sheeted? If they did offer less than the 10+M, it benefitted us as we would've matched it a cheaper contract than what he would've got. Plus from what we know about his demands, he wouldn't have signed it anyway. If he was offered the same as what we signed him for, which I doubt any GM is willing to give up 4 × 1sts, I gladly take that

 

[Dekes For Days]

Was this the year they had Panarin, Bobrovsky, Seth Jones and Duchene? If it was then I think they were ready. And I swear they knocked off Tampa the same year or the year before.
So it’s not unreasonable to think JK would have thought adding a Marner could put them over the edge

It was the offseason after they swept the 128-point President's Trophy winning Tampa team, and the offseason that they lost their high-scoring winger (Panarin) that they offered big money to and have been trying to replace ever since.

 

[613Leafer]

Well would you rather their 4 1sts or Marner if you are them

If I'm then in 2019-2020 right after losing Panarin, Bobrovsky, Duchene, etc, and I think my team is about to bottom out, I'd rather have four 1st rounders and 11M in capspace than Marner. If they added Marner at that point, they don't at all become a contender, and then they decimate their ability to build their farm system going forward, and eat up any cap flexibility they have to make big additions in free agency. No clear way for them to add Marner at that point and build a contender from there, so they would have just floundered around, burned Marner's RFA years, and then he very likely leaves via free agency.

By not adding him, they've been able to build up the farm again, and used the capspace to add Gaudreau.

 

[Antropovsky]

Pretty sure the report was that Columbus wanted to sign him to 7 years and Marner wanted less, which apparently was the sticking point. There was apparently another "offer" that never was actually presented. Interestingly nobody came out about the cap hit..... probably because Marner actually was able to squeeze more money from Dubas than he was being offered in a offersheet.

There is no way that Ferris and Marner would've passed up on the opportunity to tell the world that Marner took less to be a Leaf. This never happened... so it'd pretty much proof that others teams weren't even gonna give him the contract Dubas did.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No, the most logical conclusion is that the "alleged" offer sheet was a made up/exaggerated story used for leverage by Marner's team.

No, that is not remotely close to the most logical conclusion. That is a conspiracy theory.

 

[francis246]

"Marner isn't overpaid. It's just that all of his direct comparables are underpaid." Interesting take.

Sometimes I'm literally bewildered by what I read on these forums...

They are. That’s the whole point of the salary cap. That’s what it is literally designed to do. Keep players below market value and give more control to the owners. Marner’s comparables were never Rantanen and Aho. It was Eichel and most importantly Matthews.

Again Marner, Rantanen, Aho whoever else you wanna clump are worth over $10 million. But in a salary cap world it’s not smart to pay them that. Colorado and Carolina were more effective at convincing those players to take the deals presented. But at the time I don’t think offersheet threats were really a possibility for them. Marner was def the cream of the crop at the time. Obviously a stronger argument for the other two could be made now.

 

[Dekes For Days]

why with all the talent that was up for RFA contracts was Marner the only one being talked about as offer sheeted?

He wasn't. There was offer sheet chatter around Marner, Point, and Aho, and Aho even signed an offer sheet. Marner was the best player of the RFA group and is in the Toronto market, so of course he got the most coverage.

 

[francis246]

He wasn't. There was offer sheet chatter around Marner, Point, and Aho, and Aho even signed an offer sheet. Marner was the best player of the RFA group and is in the Toronto market, so of course he got the most coverage.

Bingo! I do believe the Marner offersheet offer happened but clearly he leveraged it to get a better deal for himself. The salary cap is the worst thing to happen to hockey. It literally turns fans against players so quickly. All it does is take the heat off owners and management for not putting together good teams and players take a majority of the heat for being paid “too much”. NHL is the only league that really operates like this.

I love the NHL but other leagues are far more interesting because Salary isn’t too big of a factor. I hope one day the NHL gets there.

 

[Tak7]

I dont buy the offer sheet crap. Like Dregs was called out for, why with all the talent that was up for RFA contracts was Marner the only one being talked about as offer sheeted? If they did offer less than the 10+M, it benefitted us as we would've matched it a cheaper contract than what he would've got. Plus from what we know about his demands, he wouldn't have signed it anyway. If he was offered the same as what we signed him for, which I doubt any GM is willing to give up 4 × 1sts, I gladly take that

Probably because he/his camp were the only ones interested in actually having those discussions - a ploy to put pressure on the Maple Leafs.

The CBJ offer was 12.5m

 

[Throw More Waffles]

No, that is not remotely close to the most logical conclusion. That is a conspiracy theory.

Since when are negotiating tactics a conspiracy theory? 13x7 is the conspiracy theory.

 

[Brobust]

Kutch, Ranta, Gaudreau, Point all make 1.5m less than Marner. How can whether Marner is overpaid still be debatable ? Would not be as bad if JT was playing like an $11m player instead of an $8m player.

He's paid more because he's better.

Only Kucherov is comparable and in overall impact Marner is still better and younger.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

They are. That’s the whole point of the salary cap. That’s what it is literally designed to do. Keep players below market value and give more control to the owners. Marner’s comparables were never Rantanen and Aho. It was Eichel and most importantly Matthews.

Again Marner, Rantanen, Aho whoever else you wanna clump are worth over $10 million. But in a salary cap world it’s not smart to pay them that. Colorado and Carolina were more effective at convincing those players to take the deals presented. But at the time I don’t think offersheet threats were really a possibility for them. Marner was def the cream of the crop at the time. Obviously a stronger argument for the other two could be made now.

Rantanen is and always has been Marner's closest comparable. Avs fans say Rantanen is better. Leaf fans say Marner is better. The rest of the league are divided. Thus showing they're VERY comparable players.

And your argument about a salary cap and overpayments is literally bewildering. I've actually never seen anything like it.

The relative financial worth of a player is directly related percentage of cap. That's part of a collective bargaining agreement between BOTH the owners and the players.

This argument of "But if there wasn't a cap Marner would make more money so he's not overpaid" is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on these forums.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Since when are negotiating tactics a conspiracy theory?

Lying to everybody and making up elaborate fake stories about easily verifiable offer sheets and leaking them in secret through multiple different press outlets is not a negotiating tactic, and not something Marner would have needed to do to get the market value contract he did.

 

[ToneDog]

He's paid more because he's better.

Only Kucherov is comparable and in overall impact Marner is still better and younger.

Debatable in regular season. Not so much come playoff time.

 

[Gabriel426]

"Marner isn't overpaid. It's just that all of his direct comparables are underpaid." Interesting take.

Sometimes I'm literally bewildered by what I read on these forums...

Well Marner isn't overpaid bc he is massively overpaid, lol.

For real, overpaid or not, Dubas had options but he choose not to use those options. If Marner is threaten to sign OS, dare him to signs and see what happens. Also, Dubas can threaten Marner in trading him too. Instead, Dubas gave Marner a deal Marner can't refuse.

 

[egd27]

"Insider" speculation is not "reporting". Look at how often they're wrong about trade rumours and signings and such. It's amazing I had to even write those sentences.

@RadioVendetta confirms the report from @TheFourthPeriod that a team is "very seriously considering" presenting an offer sheet to Marner

Someone confirms a report from someone else that some team is "very seriously considering" presenting an offer sheet (on Twitter no less)

How can you possibly argue against that air tight evidence?

 

[francis246]

Rantanen is and always has been Marner's closest comparable. Avs fans say Rantanen is better. Leaf fans say Marner is better. The rest of the league are divided. Thus showing they're VERY comparable players.

And your argument about a salary cap and overpayments is literally bewildering. I've actually never seen anything like it.

The relative financial worth of a player is directly related percentage of cap. That's part of a collective bargaining agreement between BOTH the owners and the players.

This argument of "But if there wasn't a cap Marner would make more money so he's not overpaid" is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on these forums.

Rantanen is a fan comparable. Marner himself said Matthews was his comparable. He out performed Matthews on the ELC. It was easy for him to say look at my numbers and look at Matthews numbers. Again it’s up to the team to be strong enough to not give in. The leafs weren’t. But Marner has proven he is well worth the cap hit he’s received. Should the leafs have paid him that much? Probably not.

I’ll repeat it again, the NHL and their salary cap sucks. These players should be making way more.

 

[Buds17]

Player contracts can easily get out of hand if GMs also have to negotiate against hypotheticals. Good on CBJ for being able to sign a name now for (apparently) less though.