I'd give Keefe till the 20 game mark

[conFABulator]

I don't really have all that much of an issue with Keefe. I think he's an average to maybe slightly above average coach.

With that said, the possibility of adding Trotz or Quenneville (if cleared by the league) is really, really enticing.

Keefe has put up good numbers in his tenure but when you have the opportunity for such a significant upgrade, you have to consider it.


There are definitely a lot of negative people around here that will be negative no matter what.

With that said, Trotz or Quenneville would be such a significant upgrade that you have to at least consider it.

I don't think we consider Quenneville. I think he is done in this league.

Trotz is tempting. I worry that we don't have the right personnel fit and having to get his types of players might not line up with our window.

I think if you came into this season with Keefe and Dubas' nothing has happened that should cause you to be changing your mind on them. This offseason could be a different story.

 

[Gallagbi]

Nope. He seems to be an expert on everything Leafs so I would like to hear what he has to say

Honestly man, be better

 

[Eternal Leaf]

The team is in a similar position to previous years. They can do well enough in the regular season but don't look like they have a solid team for the playoffs.

 

[geo25]

I don't think we consider Quenneville. I think he is done in this league.

Trotz is tempting. I worry that we don't have the right personnel fit and having to get his types of players might not line up with our window.

I think if you came into this season with Keefe and Dubas' nothing has happened that should cause you to be changing your mind on them. This offseason could be a different story.

We should have nabbed Gallant. I think he would have been a better fit.

 

[Stephen]

And it isn't even youngsters flubbing the pucks, as you mention Muzzin. It includes Rielly and others.

Is this something being drilled into them at practice or something?

Perhaps, it is just the flubs that result in goals are being highlighted, and not the flubs that just causes penalties against or unnecessary scrambles.

There are also too many plays where the defender just doesn't get the puck out of the zone. They aren't outright flubs just a lack of bearing down.

All correctable issues.

One would think the lack of scoring corrects itself as players revert to form.

Those issues with the puck seem like a feature more than a bug. I would suggest that the puck possession game requires a number of trade offs.

One, the pace of play has to be slowed down somewhat to allow for the extra brain power and decision making, so that's why we always see that mid tempo game from Toronto. The extra processing time also eats into the reaction time.

Two, puck possession also forces the puck carrier to sometimes make lateral, reversals, bump backs and curl backs with the play instead of giving away possession by sending it north. You're basically inviting a counter rush in that instance if the other team is on top of your man with momentum.

 

[willmma]

Those issues with the puck seem like a feature more than a bug. I would suggest that the puck possession game requires a number of trade offs.

One, the pace of play has to be slowed down somewhat to allow for the extra brain power and decision making, so that's why we always see that mid tempo game from Toronto. The extra processing time also eats into the reaction time.

Two, puck possession also forces the puck carrier to sometimes make lateral, reversals, bump backs and curl backs with the play instead of giving away possession by sending it north. You're basically inviting a counter rush in that instance if the other team is on top of your man with momentum.

Agreed

It is also why they pass way too many times in the offensive zone. It allows them to keep the puck and hem the other team in their zone. It also allows the team to make changes while the other team is scrambling, stuck, and exhausted from their long shifts. Tire them out.

The tired defense will have lapses and give us a scoring opportunity.

So, the way this possession game plays out, if there is not good scoring opportunity then pass it and buy some time.

It's brilliant when it works. Extremely frustrating when they go into the zone pass it a few times without any attempt to score and then lose it

 

[notDatsyuk]

Sure, we can slice and dice numbers all day long. How about we run the numbers for November? After a slow start? I believe the Leafs are 6-1-2 in November.

We want this team to grow and develop more of a playoff ready game. Obviously, we won't know if they did this until that time comes.

The Leafs have the 5th best GAA in the NHL this season and are top 10 in shots allowed and SV%, this is including the slow start. They are also top 10 in hits. These are good indicators, no?

This team has done this without Muzzin and their two goalies for much of the year, Kallgren has played 8 games and brings down our overall defensive metrics (as to be expected as a third string goalie, he also has five of our losses too btw).

They have lots of cap room and assets and they can add to this team for sure. I see more reasons for optimism, but I don't always see the negatives only.

Much depends on how you look at them.

10th in hits, but 16th in hits per 60. On the road (which eliminates the local bias) 28th.

How can they give up the 6th fewest shots per game, and have the 5th best GAA, and still be in 8th in goals allowed per game?

Anyway, they are playing well, except for some defensive breakdowns.

 

[kb]

The team is in a similar position to previous years. They can do well enough in the regular season but don't look like they have a solid team for the playoffs.

There is zero basis for this. Each year is unique. The fact things look similar does not mean they are similar. I mean....yes, they are playing hockey, that's similar. But that's it.

About the whole whiny 6 years thing. If that is the case, shouldn't the Leafs just fold? Not play at all? I mean.....nothing they do in the regular season ever changes anything or amounts to anything, right? They could have a 40 game winning streak, but is always met with "BUT PLAYOFFS!!"

I mean, the only 2 possible reasons to post would be to tr*ll and whine. What other purpose would there be if "playoffs only" is the true feelings? Just to prove they are the biggest whiner? To put down the optimists and mock them (which is never discouraged or punished, but at times ACTIVELY encouraged).

No matter the fact that the D and G look solid this season, but scoring is way down. Is that the same Leafs team as every other year?

Sadly, the level of actual thoughtful discourse in here just continues to plummet. Always the same old narrative. We all know about the playoffs. This season's results aren't tied to past seasons in any way, nor will next season be tied to this one.

 

[Nineteen67]

The 8 game stretch that started against Vancouver is going well for Keefe. They‘ll be in a playoff spot by the end of the week, which has been a demarcation mark for making the playoffs, and from here on out it’s just matter of jockeying for position.

The Leafs probably have to finish first in the Atlantic to win a playoff round.

 

[ACC1224]

The 8 game stretch that started against Vancouver is going well for Keefe. They‘ll be in a playoff spot by the end of the week, which has been a demarcation mark for making the playoffs, and from here on out it’s just matter of jockeying for position.

The Leafs probably have to finish first in the Atlantic to win a playoff round.

Tough slate ahead, 7 games in 13 days.
Another little dip here wouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Nineteen67]

Tough slate ahead, 7 games in 13 days.
Another little dip here wouldn't be a surprise.

They cant afford any long dips and have to take aim at winning the division

 

[Eye Test]

Those issues with the puck seem like a feature more than a bug. I would suggest that the puck possession game requires a number of trade offs.

One, the pace of play has to be slowed down somewhat to allow for the extra brain power and decision making, so that's why we always see that mid tempo game from Toronto. The extra processing time also eats into the reaction time.

Two, puck possession also forces the puck carrier to sometimes make lateral, reversals, bump backs and curl backs with the play instead of giving away possession by sending it north. You're basically inviting a counter rush in that instance if the other team is on top of your man with momentum.

100%

3. To combine both your points it also goes against traditional hockey style which 99% of all players grew up on, thus leading to more errors from overthinking.

 

[conFABulator]

Much depends on how you look at them.

10th in hits, but 16th in hits per 60. On the road (which eliminates the local bias) 28th.

How can they give up the 6th fewest shots per game, and have the 5th best GAA, and still be in 8th in goals allowed per game?

Anyway, they are playing well, except for some defensive breakdowns.

Another way to look at it is where were they last year in hits, etc and see if they have made progress...I don't know the answer to that but last year would have had the same bias. What site do you get that sort of breakdown from?

Wouldn't the goals and shots thing have to do with goaltending and SV%?

Our third string goalie has played a lot, has a much lower save percentage than the other two, and has been credited with five of our losses.

 

[Auston Marlander]

How can they give up the 6th fewest shots per game, and have the 5th best GAA, and still be in 8th in goals allowed per game?

Anyway, they are playing well, except for some defensive breakdowns.

Playing their 4th string goalie could have the effect.

 

[GoonieFace]

The team is in a similar position to previous years. They can do well enough in the regular season but don't look like they have a solid team for the playoffs.

I agree, although the East seems weaker this year. Could be the year they actually win a round, unless they pull a Leaf as usual

 

[ACC1224]

They cant afford any long dips and have to take aim at winning the division

Urgency has never seemed to be part of their D.N.A.

 

[snipes29]

Toronto's coaching and management is a laughing stock. They all have to go.

you sir are correct,

 

[willmma]

There is zero basis for this. Each year is unique. The fact things look similar does not mean they are similar. I mean....yes, they are playing hockey, that's similar. But that's it.

About the whole whiny 6 years thing. If that is the case, shouldn't the Leafs just fold? Not play at all? I mean.....nothing they do in the regular season ever changes anything or amounts to anything, right? They could have a 40 game winning streak, but is always met with "BUT PLAYOFFS!!"

I mean, the only 2 possible reasons to post would be to tr*ll and whine. What other purpose would there be if "playoffs only" is the true feelings? Just to prove they are the biggest whiner? To put down the optimists and mock them (which is never discouraged or punished, but at times ACTIVELY encouraged).

No matter the fact that the D and G look solid this season, but scoring is way down. Is that the same Leafs team as every other year?

Sadly, the level of actual thoughtful discourse in here just continues to plummet. Always the same old narrative. We all know about the playoffs. This season's results aren't tied to past seasons in any way, nor will next season be tied to this one.

Very well said.

This thread is poison. Half the HF forum is toxic fumes. There are leaf fans that wish the team loses to prove that Shanahan/Dubas/Keefe suck. If you give them the option to win the SC or fire Dubas and Keefe they will choose the latter.

We haven't won a round in ages and havent won the cup in forever. But goddamn let us enjoy any bits here and there that we get to enjoy. Let us enjoy the win and dream of maybe some success in the playoffs.

 

[ACC1224]

Very well said.

This thread is poison. Half the HF forum is toxic fumes. There are leaf fans that wish the team loses to prove that Shanahan/Dubas/Keefe suck. If you give them the option to win the SC or fire Dubas and Keefe they will choose the latter.

We haven't won a round in ages and havent won the cup in forever. But goddamn let us enjoy any bits here and there that we get to enjoy. Let us enjoy the win and dream of maybe some success in the playoffs.

In a thread discussing if the Coach should be removed you're not going to get your rainbow wishes.
Probably best to ignore the thread instead of trying to police it.

Leaf Season Optimism Thread

Since I’m tired of the same threads over and over to yell at how bad the Leafs are, I wanted to start an optimistic discussion thread where we can talk about the team without attacking others for wanting to support this squad, coach and GM. If you want to continue attacking other people for...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[4thline]

So we've got a team that's solidly in a playoff spot despite running the 4th string goalie out for almost half of the season so far, and a horrendous record in extra time.

And the coach is on the hot seat, because the above is evidence of the team underperforming based on what is available to said coach.

Must be one hell of a roster eh.

 

[kevsh]

No matter the fact that the D and G look solid this season, but scoring is way down.

You do realize they lost 5 of the past 6 series because they couldn't score when they needed to? (Series 1 against Boston they clearly had no problems scoring, they just couldn't stop the Bruins from scoring more)

So it is certainly a fair point that it's hard to be optimistic based on what we've seen so far. On the positive side, there is a long way to go and it's hard to imagine the team won't pick up in the scoring department.

As for the overall theme of your post, after 6 straight playoff disappointments fans have a right to be skeptical, just as you have a right not to be. If it makes you feel better, the anger & frustration is a sign of deeply committed fans who truly want this team to win. The alternative would be a fan base that doesn't care one way or another, and that would mean a ghost town of a Leafs forum and a very boring one for those still here.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

There is zero basis for this. Each year is unique. The fact things look similar does not mean they are similar. I mean....yes, they are playing hockey, that's similar. But that's it.

About the whole whiny 6 years thing. If that is the case, shouldn't the Leafs just fold? Not play at all? I mean.....nothing they do in the regular season ever changes anything or amounts to anything, right? They could have a 40 game winning streak, but is always met with "BUT PLAYOFFS!!"

I mean, the only 2 possible reasons to post would be to tr*ll and whine. What other purpose would there be if "playoffs only" is the true feelings? Just to prove they are the biggest whiner? To put down the optimists and mock them (which is never discouraged or punished, but at times ACTIVELY encouraged).

No matter the fact that the D and G look solid this season, but scoring is way down. Is that the same Leafs team as every other year?

Sadly, the level of actual thoughtful discourse in here just continues to plummet. Always the same old narrative. We all know about the playoffs. This season's results aren't tied to past seasons in any way, nor will next season be tied to this one.

You’re right but I’m not being negative. Just realistic based on the team on the ice.

If they were badly struggling but built right, I would say don’t worry, they’ll make the playoffs and do some damage once they get there. Unfortunately, it’s the same as before because they still aren’t built for playoff success.

The team has weaknesses that will show in the playoffs and that is seen through its structural weaknesses, average depth, and overall soft play. This has not changed season to season.

All we’re seeing is a great regular season team show it can put up points through adversity, which has never been in doubt.

Of course, this is my opinion and when the games start I don’t even care about my opinion. We all want them to go 82-0 and 16-0.

But if the team isn’t built right, I won’t shy away from saying it just because I’m a fan. No one should.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Another way to look at it is where were they last year in hits, etc and see if they have made progress...I don't know the answer to that but last year would have had the same bias. What site do you get that sort of breakdown from?

Wouldn't the goals and shots thing have to do with goaltending and SV%?

Our third string goalie has played a lot, has a much lower save percentage than the other two, and has been credited with five of our losses.

Last year they were 24th in hits and hits per 60, and 31st on the road.

Oddly enough, their hits per sixty on the road are virtually identical: 18.49 last year and 18.50 this year. Early season may have something to do with the difference.

I got these numbers from the NHL site.

Agreed, I'm not exactly sure how the shots/save%/goals work out.

 

[fahad203]

There is zero basis for this. Each year is unique. The fact things look similar does not mean they are similar. I mean....yes, they are playing hockey, that's similar. But that's it.

About the whole whiny 6 years thing. If that is the case, shouldn't the Leafs just fold? Not play at all? I mean.....nothing they do in the regular season ever changes anything or amounts to anything, right? They could have a 40 game winning streak, but is always met with "BUT PLAYOFFS!!"

I mean, the only 2 possible reasons to post would be to tr*ll and whine. What other purpose would there be if "playoffs only" is the true feelings? Just to prove they are the biggest whiner? To put down the optimists and mock them (which is never discouraged or punished, but at times ACTIVELY encouraged).

No matter the fact that the D and G look solid this season, but scoring is way down. Is that the same Leafs team as every other year?

Sadly, the level of actual thoughtful discourse in here just continues to plummet. Always the same old narrative. We all know about the playoffs. This season's results aren't tied to past seasons in any way, nor will next season be tied to this one.

Just because every year is unique doesn't mean the circumstances will be. This is essentially the same core that hasn't gotten done, with same coaching staff.

Our D is looking better compare our D, not compare to the league standards. Every team and their fans tend to live in their own bubble. What was our bread and butter was scoring and speed. Those two are gone, our depth is gone. Slight improvement in D wont' make up for that. Our D looks good for a bit then it gets pummled in the playoffs. We had a lot of good Corsi numbers last year too, meant jack in the playoffs

Just because fans wants some changes, doesn't mean they want the team to plummet. They do want to see some significant changes. They are not mutually exclusive. You can make changes without plummeting

If every year was unique no team would make changes. They would just wait for the year to be over so they can start fresh with the same player and stay the course. Stick to the game plan.

Heck last year we apparently broke our own record for most point. We actually looked like a threat game in game out. And we couldn't win a playoff round

There are new challengers out there. I know you watch other teams, you are more equipped to make that judgement.

Boston doesn't wait around for next year bud. They. make changes like their coaches

Vegas isn't waiting around for next year. They got the best coach in the market

Funny enough, those two teams are leading their respective conferences in wins as of today

This team simply doesn't pass the eye test. Despite of corsi numbers. Those who watched enough hockey know what a good team looks like, this does not look like a good team

 

[AvroArrow]

Just a reminder, Leafs are currently 5th overall in the entire league and this is when they are not playing anywhere near their potential