I have serious concerns for next year (2023-24)

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah I agree with you, but it's still worth remembering that there's still a lot of value in regular season success - even though we are a little bit used to it - and the playoff disappointment that usually comes after it.

Yeah sure, I mean every game means something. Even the most meaningless game of the season for a team that has no shot at the playoffs, there's still people at the game, still people watching on TV etc. With us though, it's starting to feel a bit like the Groundhog Day movie, 82 games, cruise to the playoffs, then exit in embarrassing fashion and you can only watch the same movie so many times before getting a bit apathetic. And while some would find solace in the fact that we finally won a round, for many of us that just makes it all the more disappointing how we then flamed out against a team we were supposed to handle easily.

The whole regular season is meaningless is one of the dumber sentiments repeated here daily. Do people really believe this is some special insight they have. Look forward to daily reminders all season. It’s too much to expect that these people would just go away until the spring.

And I look forward to your continuing whining all season. But who knows, perhaps you'll have some special insight to offer one of these days.

 

[Strangle]

1. Treliving moves have been fine, the worst move he made was signing a 4th line guy to term, which can be buried in the AHL, all we have heard past 3 years is team doesn't have enough snarl, I'd say adding Bert/Domi/Reaves gives them that.

2. Mitch Marner is a top 5 winger in the NHL, extremely hard to trade him and win the deal, you're always giving up the the best player in the deal.

3. Not concerned about 34 not signing yet, seems like both he and the team want it done before the season starts to avoid the circus that comes with it. More concerned Willy will be walking for nothing.

4. Defense gripe is fair they struggled last year in the playoffs, and didn't really improve it. Klingberg is a risk, and hopefully can add to moving the puck faster from our end to the forwards.

This team this year, compared to last years team on opening day is a lot better, that seems pretty obvious. The team we had after the trade deadline was better, time will tell what we look like after the TDL.

Regarding #2, teams trade the best player in a deal and have success often. Just reading this the two most obvious cases would be the oilers winning the cup after trading gretzky and the lindros trade. The Leafs traded Wendell Clark and a 50 goal Leeman and got better.

The Bruins traded Kessel and won

You might not get the best single player in a deal, but hockey isn’t something where one player (even gretzky) can carry a team to a cup.

Sometimes I really think fans are not really fans of the logo on the front, but the names on the back.

Trade everyone, I don’t care. I want team success. Do better, f***ing win.

What do I care if Marner or Matthews is on the team? I don’t. There hasn’t been a player I wasn’t ready to walk away from for this team, even Clark.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I'll bet you right now the Leafs will finish as a top 3 team in the regular season, absolutely no chance they miss playoffs unless there are multiple catastrophic injuries. I'm talking season ending injuries to guys like Matthews, Marner, Tavares.

I'm dropping an early bet that Leafs win the presidents trophy, we've been an elite regular season team for like 5-6 years now, our division got much weaker.

This year will be different for a couple of reasons, for the first time we have a different GM with a different philosophy. We've never had a true 1LW before, we added Bertuzzi.

I'd argue we have never had a true top 6 before, there has always been at least 1 guy, usually Kerfoot that didn't belong there.

Now?

Bertuzzi Matthews Marner

Domi Tavares Nylander

Who is the guy that doesn't belong there?

Where is the hole? I don't see it.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Regarding #2, teams trade the best player in a deal and have success often. Just reading this the two most obvious cases would be the oilers winning the cup after trading gretzky and the lindros trade. The Leafs traded Wendell Clark and a 50 goal Leeman and got better.

The Bruins traded Kessel and won

You might not get the best single player in a deal, but hockey isn’t something where one player (even gretzky) can carry a team to a cup.

Sometimes I really think fans are not really fans of the logo on the front, but the names on the back.

Trade everyone, I don’t care. I want team success. Do better, f***ing win.

What do I care if Marner or Matthews is on the team? I don’t. There hasn’t been a player I wasn’t ready to walk away from for this team, even Clark.

Neither Clark, nor Leeman were the best players in those trades and you know it.

 

[Strangle]

Neither Clark, nor Leeman were the best players in those trades and you know it.

Clark was traded for a young sundin, he was absolutely the better player at the time.

I can’t remember what the thoughts on leeman v gilmour were at the time, but I absolutely remember leaf fans HATING the Sundin trade for similar reasons fans in here are so ready to hate on a Marner or matthews trade

 

[Johnny Engine]

Clark was traded for a young sundin, he was absolutely the better player at the time.

I can’t remember what the thoughts on leeman v gilmour were at the time, but I absolutely remember leaf fans HATING the Sundin trade for similar reasons fans in here are so ready to hate on a Marner or matthews trade

Fans who hated that trade hated it because Clark was fun to watch, charismatic, the captain, a long-tenured Leaf, and maybe to a certain degree because he was Canadian. That's fine, we're allowed to have feelings.

Sundin had more points than Clark in each of the last 4 years before the trade, played centre, and while his defensive game probably wasn't where it would eventually get to, he had a handful of shorthanded points on the board in each season that showed Quebec couldn't have been shy about using him that way. Clark's career year in 1994 also came on a line with a guy having his second 80+ assist season in a row. At 27 years old and 9 years into his career, Clark also had only gotten through one full season without a significant injury.

I'm not going to tell you how to weigh all the factors involved, but that's a hell of a lot of ground to make up with open-ice hits and fighting, for Clark to have been the better player at the time.

 

[Strangle]

Fans who hated that trade hated it because Clark was fun to watch, charismatic, the captain, a long-tenured Leaf, and maybe to a certain degree because he was Canadian. That's fine, we're allowed to have feelings.

Sundin had more points than Clark in each of the last 4 years before the trade, played centre, and while his defensive game probably wasn't where it would eventually get to, he had a handful of shorthanded points on the board in each season that showed Quebec couldn't have been shy about using him that way. Clark's career year in 1994 also came on a line with a guy having his second 80+ assist season in a row. At 27 years old and 9 years into his career, Clark also had only gotten through one full season without a significant injury.

I'm not going to tell you how to weigh all the factors involved, but that's a hell of a lot of ground to make up with open-ice hits and fighting, for Clark to have been the better player at the time.

No, you’re missing the point. In retrospect the deals look great, same with the bruins and Kessel, the gretzky trade didn’t stop the oilers from winning another cup and the lindros trade help bring a cup to Colorado.

Trading Clark, gretzky, lindros and many many others was seen as ‘you can’t ever win that trade’, but it’s just not necessarily true.

Just look at any superstar trade and you’ll see they aren’t that bad if the players you get back are a better fit, or fill a role or if your team is just that damn good.

I’m arguing that trying to get the best player back in a Marner deal isn’t the only way to skin a cat and isn’t how anyone should be looking at a potential trade.

Just need to look at the history of nhl trades to see how it can be beneficial

 

[Lightsol]

The whole regular season is meaningless is one of the dumber sentiments repeated here daily. Do people really believe this is some special insight they have. Look forward to daily reminders all season. It’s too much to expect that these people would just go away until the spring.

The regular season is only meaningless when they're winning. Watch, if they lose a few games at the beginning again the same ones who say "regular season doesn't matter" will be in the threads screaming about how the team is going nowhere.

 

[Lightsol]

Clark was traded for a young sundin, he was absolutely the better player at the time.

Are you for real? EVERYONE knew Sundin was the better player; if Clark was better, why did the Leafs have to ADD to him to get Sundin?

 

[Strangle]

Are you for real? EVERYONE knew Sundin was the better player; if Clark was better, why did the Leafs have to ADD to him to get Sundin?

The Leafs didn’t have to add, they got a top 10 draft pick WITH Sundin.

You’re just making shit up, you obviously weren’t there. The Leaf fans were furious, they didn’t want to trade Clark and especially not for Sundin.

It was so bad it took nearly a decade for fans to get over it and accept Sundin on the ice.

 

[Johnny Engine]

No, you’re missing the point. In retrospect the deals look great....Trading Clark ... was seen as ‘you can’t ever win that trade’, but it’s just not necessarily true.

You made a very specific claim about the relative on-ice values of those players, one that should have been very clearly wrong to anyone looking seriously at those players at the time. Angry 90s Leafs fans need not apply.
I however, said no such thing about whether you could win a deal by trading away one of your key players. I didn't say that because I can't read other GM's minds, and I have no idea whether one of them wants to give the Leafs a player who is younger, bigger, healthier, better defensively, and scores more than the player they'd be trading away. If such a deal is on the table, they should by all means do it, even if the deal also makes me sad for whatever reason.

Edit: Ironically, your point works well for Quebec's side of the deal, not the Leafs. They took a bath on the two headliner players, but in Clark they got a guy who supposedly had a positive effect on some of the other talent in the organization, and also got such a steep upgrade on defense that they were able to win a cup with that guy on the top pair, while the other guy was out of the league after one season. To your point, it is possible to trade a Sundin-like talent at a loss and still benefit from it.

 

[Arzak]

I doubt we miss the playoffs. Matthews had a terrible year, we still comfortably finished 2nd. We added more offence, so bare minimum we will score our way into the playoffs

Buffalo is missing any semblance of goaltending

Tampa’s got clear depth issues

Boston is due for heavy regression with 1 and 2C gone

Florida got better all around so let’s highball them and say they are for sure better

Montreal is ass, still in the rebuild phase

Ottawa could be good, but they also have shaky depth and their goaltending is worrying.

Detroit barely improved a mediocre team, i doubt they go from a 80 point team, though they were in a playoff spot by game like 50, but I can’t see them getting 105+

At worst, 1 better, 3 “battling” with us. At worst we are 4th, which is most likely a wildcard

3+ of those teams need 100 points to push us out of a playoff spot, then the metro also needs to be solid as well

We at worst should be a 100 point team, I’m not sweating the regular season, don’t get me started on the playoffs though

I would prefer we climb the ranking by getting better not because of Bergeron and Krejci finally retiring (Bergeron Selke, Krejci also solid season with Pasta getting 60 on si wing, plus record-breaking regular season), they probably could keep going for a couple of years more.

 

[Aashir]

I would prefer we climb the ranking by getting better not because of Bergeron and Krejci finally retiring (Bergeron Selke, Krejci also solid season with Pasta getting 60 on si wing, plus record-breaking regular season), they probably could keep going for a couple of years more.

Yea, but the point still stands that. They went from Bergeron-Krejci-Coyle to Zacha-Coyle-Geekie? That’s a clear downgrade. Moreover, they will have natural regression as a team in a whole, not saying they will fall off a cliff, but expecting 120+ is not realistic. 90-100 is probably their target

As for our improvement, we swapped mainly
bertuzzi for bunting
Domi for kerfoot
klingberg for holl
Woll for Murray

So I do think we have gotten better, all the direct comparables are either upgrades or at worst equal to their replacements, but I think Boston has gotten more worse than we have gotten better if that makes sense

 

[Strangle]

You made a very specific claim about the relative on-ice values of those players, one that should have been very clearly wrong to anyone looking seriously at those players at the time.
I however, said no such thing about whether you could win a deal by trading away one of your key players. I didn't say that because I can't read other GM's minds, and I have no idea whether one of them wants to give the Leafs a player who is younger, bigger, healthier, better defensively, and scores more than the player they'd be trading away. If such a deal is on the table, they should by all means do it, even if the deal also makes me sad for whatever reason.

Wendel had just scored 46 goals in 64 games the previous year and a better PPG than Sundin that season too.

Sundin had a big year, then reversed and Clark just had his career best season. If Clark was healthy (which everyone thought he was at the time), he was widely seen as the better player at the time of the trade. That’s also likely why the Leafs upgraded their pick at the time too.

I don’t see how you can say people would be ‘clearly wrong’ even if they were just looking at raw point totals from the previous season. Never mind the physical game and ability to tilt the ice that Clark had at the time and fans saw as lacking in Mats.

I’m retrospect it’s a great trade. That’s my point. But at the time it was hard to give up Clark for anyone. I’m making the analogy that giving up Marner or Matthews right now may seem unthinkable, just as trading Clark felt at the time. But that it often turns out positively by moving franchise corner stone players.

I can’t see how this is arguable at all, the league is littered with evidence of this. Even if you think the Clark example isn’t a good one, there are many many more

 

[danny90]

I don't like moves Treliving has made so far

I don't like MM is still on the team, he should have been traded

I don't like AM still doesn't have a contact (I really don't like how AM is so adverse to long term contracts)

I don't like the defense AT ALL

I'd say my biggest concern is this team is going to be too complacent and I think there is a real chance Toronto might actually miss the playoffs

I have never been this low on the team, at least when Toronto was tanking we could look forward to the future, what do we have to look forward to now? Toronto hasn't done ANYTHING with this core, why should I think this year will be any different?

take a step back, it is almost imposible for the leafs to miss the playoffs

 

[Johnny Engine]

Wendel had just scored 46 goals in 64 games the previous year and a better PPG than Sundin that season too.

Sundin had a big year, then reversed and Clark just had his career best season. If Clark was healthy (which everyone thought he was at the time), he was widely seen as the better player at the time of the trade. That’s also likely why the Leafs upgraded their pick at the time too.

I don’t see how you can say people would be ‘clearly wrong’ even if they were just looking at raw point totals from the previous season. Never mind the physical game and ability to tilt the ice that Clark had at the time and fans saw as lacking in Mats.

I think they'd be clearly wrong if they thought a winger who was not a particularly good playmaker and dreadful defensively "tilted the ice" more than a centre of Sundin's caliber. And yes, I know that lots of fans thought that. I don't begrudge a fan's right to drastically overrate a player they really like, and in a weird way that's a compliment to Clark - his charisma and entertainment value transcend his ability to help win hockey games, and there's no reason appreciating that is worse than being right about how good hockey players are.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I'll bet you right now the Leafs will finish as a top 3 team in the regular season, absolutely no chance they miss playoffs unless there are multiple catastrophic injuries. I'm talking season ending injuries to guys like Matthews, Marner, Tavares.

I'm dropping an early bet that Leafs win the presidents trophy, we've been an elite regular season team for like 5-6 years now, our division got much weaker.

This year will be different for a couple of reasons, for the first time we have a different GM with a different philosophy. We've never had a true 1LW before, we added Bertuzzi.

Great. Then what?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Clark was traded for a young sundin, he was absolutely the better player at the time.

I can’t remember what the thoughts on leeman v gilmour were at the time, but I absolutely remember leaf fans HATING the Sundin trade for similar reasons fans in here are so ready to hate on a Marner or matthews trade

Most people saw it as a huge win for the Leafs from the minute it happened. Leeman was probably no better than the third best player involved in what IIRC was a 10 player trade, we got the best two players in the deal. Gilmour was an amazing player and had already earned a spot on perhaps the best ever Team Canada roster, I would have seen the trade as a massive win for us, even if he'd been the only player we got in return for the five we gave up.

Some Leaf fans hated the Clark trade but I think they were just letting their emotions get in the way of common sense. I thought it was an obvious big win for us the minute it happened, so did many others.

The Gilmour example (sorry, Leeman example) is just so bad, not sure you could have done worse had you tried. The Clark example is also really bad but your premise is 100% valid. JMHO.

I think they'd be clearly wrong if they thought a winger who was not a particularly good playmaker and dreadful defensively "tilted the ice" more than a centre of Sundin's caliber. And yes, I know that lots of fans thought that. I don't begrudge a fan's right to drastically overrate a player they really like, and in a weird way that's a compliment to Clark - his charisma and entertainment value transcend his ability to help win hockey games, and there's no reason appreciating that is worse than being right about how good hockey players are.

Well said! Clark was amazing, possibly the most charismatic player I've seen play for us. Not possible not to love that guy IMO, he gave 100% all the time and if our current "team leaders" had half the heart Clark did, we'd be enjoying a dynasty.

 

[mikeyz]

I'd argue we have never had a true top 6 before, there has always been at least 1 guy, usually Kerfoot that didn't belong there.

Now?

Bertuzzi Matthews Marner

Domi Tavares Nylander

Who is the guy that doesn't belong there?

Where is the hole? I don't see it.

Plus Knies is their #7. Which isn't bad at all.

 

[Dragao6]

What’s the fear?
Worst case we make the playoffs and lose round 1?
Nothing different then the last 7/8 years….
Things can only get better

 

[darrylsittler27]

Obviously everyone wants to make real playoff noise, to win, but acting like regular season success isn’t also important is ridiculous.

Yeah that's what Boston said. First in the East never does well.

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah that's what Boston said. First in the East never does well.

The path to the SC was there for them and they blew it. Should have gone to Swayman earlier in the series IMO.

 

[notbias]

Hyman's career high with Toronto was 41 points, in his last season with us he was on pace for 63 points, while playing with Matthews and Marner, which is exactly what Bunting scored with us while playing with Matthews Marner. He is pretty damn elite defensively though.

I really like Hyman, I think he's a great complementary role player, but he isn't a true #1LW, but with the right players around him (Matthews/Marner or McDavid) he has enough IQ and work ethic to make the line work. Ideally you want him as your #2LW, but like I said, with the right players he can move up the lineup and perform at a very respectable level.

Bertuzzi however, hit 62 points, 30 goals in 68 games on a terrible Red Wings team. He is much better offensively and a legitimate #1LW. Even without elite players, he produces top line numbers.

We have never had a LW as talented as Bertuzzi in the Matthews era. Much love and respect for Hyman, but there is a very clear offensive gap. Also I don't wanna hear about his inflated points from playing with the greatest player of this generation, a significant jump in points was obviously expected.

You realize Bertuzzi was on pace for 40 points with the Red Wings right? He only has decent numbers from playing with a stacked Bruins. Bertuzzi is surely an upgrade on Hyman's skill... but I think people will be very disappointed with Domi/Bertuzzi based on how people are talking.

I'd argue we have never had a true top 6 before, there has always been at least 1 guy, usually Kerfoot that didn't belong there.

Now?

Bertuzzi Matthews Marner

Domi Tavares Nylander

Who is the guy that doesn't belong there?

Where is the hole? I don't see it.

And the worst bottom 6 in the league?

I think people are going to be disappointed when we still don't have a "true top 6", but we have scoring depth.

 

[IPS]

You realize Bertuzzi was on pace for 40 points with the Red Wings right? He only has decent numbers from playing with a stacked Bruins. Bertuzzi is surely an upgrade on Hyman's skill... but I think people will be very disappointed with Domi/Bertuzzi based on how people are talking.

Yeah Dubas didn't acquire them so I guess they instantly lose 40 points in your books.

 

[notbias]

Yeah Dubas didn't acquire them so I guess they instantly lose 40 points in your books.

Or you can pull up stats from last year instead of years before...

Bertuzzi was bad on the Wings, good on a stacked team.

We are closer to the Bruins than Wings, so that is good, but pretending Bertuzzi (or Domi) is some powerhouse great 1st line player is laughable.

They are complimentary pieces, probably slightly better than Bunting.