How would you rate out drafting the past few years??

[Busher]

2015 was a great draft, for reasons mentioned above. Getting Marner at 4 was no guarantee. Arizona could have picked him at 3, or the Leafs could’ve gone with Hanifin at 4. Picking 4th overall only seems to produce a truly memorable player about once every 10 years, so we really did make out like bandits with the way Marner’s produced.

2016 was one of those “a monkey could’ve picked Matthews at 1” drafts.

Outside of the top 10, I haven’t been impressed. In fact, I’d probably have to go back to Kaberle in the 90’s to find a non top 10 pick that I liked for this team.

For once, it would be nice to unearth a Pastrnak, Point or Fox with a later pick. I’m not even asking for Kucherov, but at least some type of impact player.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm not fooled into thinking quantity by making multiple 4ths, 5th , 3 X 6th and 3 X 7ths ( outside the top 120 picks in a draft)

You claimed that we "traded away soooo many picks in the last 4 years in a scorched earth approach to fuel the current machine". That is very clearly false. We have not gone "scorched earth" in the slightest. We have drafted 26 out of the default 28 times over the past 4 years, which is actually quite a lot for a top-end team. This includes a 1st, four 2nds, and three 3rds - 13 picks in the top 124 of the draft. More importantly, our prospect pool is healthy, which is really all that matters.

You've talked pretty favourably about Florida lately. Have you taken a look at their prospect pool and draft pick selection in coming years?

For a good laugh why don't you drill down on some of those 6th and 7th rounders above (with the links provided) and check out their size and their last year stats and then perhaps provide a timeline when you think they will be making their NHL debuts with our Leafs. I'm most excited about 5'-8" / 146lbs centre Joe Miller who is still playing in the USHL now 2+ years post draft.

No 6th and 7th rounders from the 2020 draft should be making the NHL yet. They're 6th and 7th rounders because they require more development time. And whether they make it or not has nothing to do with their size - we can point to countless "size" picks from earlier Leaf drafts that we already know failed horribly, and we actually have quite a few "smaller" picks trending well. You claimed that "all those previous years of drafting small skilled 5-10 players were all wasted picks the moment they were announced for the most part" and that's wildly untrue. The most likely prospect to make the team this year is in fact a smaller player in Robertson who has done very well in the AHL.

Also, Joe Miller is only 19 years old (no surprise you're using his age 17 draft size/weight), so I'm not sure why you think it's a surprise he's "still" in the USHL, or what exactly you expected from him at this point.

 

[OptimusReim]

I wonder how much Dubas is paying these posters...at least I hope he is

 

[Menzinger]

The drafting from the first few years of the rebuild has been a disappointment - likely too early to say how we've been doing under the Dubas' era as the 2018/19 season was the first cycle of him having his guys lead the scouting (believe he took over the GM job about a month prior to the 2018 draft). Though there are some very promising guys like Knies/Nimela/Robertson.

The Leafs unfortunately so far be by bad luck, scouting or development haven't been able to get enough legit impact players from outside of the top 10 of the draft, which has been imo one of the biggest constraints on this team being able to push things into the next level. Ideally Liljgren can play a role in doing that sooner than later along with some of the other young guys.

 

[93LEAFS]

2015 was a great draft, for reasons mentioned above. Getting Marner at 4 was no guarantee. Arizona could have picked him at 3, or the Leafs could’ve gone with Hanifin at 4. Picking 4th overall only seems to produce a truly memorable player about once every 10 years, so we really did make out like bandits with the way Marner’s produced.

2016 was one of those “a monkey could’ve picked Matthews at 1” drafts.

Outside of the top 10, I haven’t been impressed. In fact, I’d probably have to go back to Kaberle in the 90’s to find a non top 10 pick that I liked for this team.

For once, it would be nice to unearth a Pastrnak, Point or Fox with a later pick. I’m not even asking for Kucherov, but at least some type of impact player.

We aren't picking stars outside the top 10, but I absolutely liked Brown who just got buried due to stacked RW at the time. He's def a solid player in the league. Not that I'm a fan of the Morrison regime, but I'll give credit on that.

 

[Mess]

The drafting from the first few years of the rebuild has been a disappointment - likely too early to say how we've been doing under the Dubas' era as the 2018/19 season was the first cycle of him having his guys lead the scouting (believe he took over the GM job about a month prior to the 2018 draft). Though there are some very promising guys like Knies/Nimela/Robertson.

The Leafs unfortunately so far be by bad luck, scouting or development haven't been able to get enough legit impact players from outside of the top 10 of the draft, which has been imo one of the biggest constraints on this team being able to push things into the next level. Ideally Liljgren can play a role in doing that sooner than later along with some of the other young guys.

Liljegren was round 1 #17 overall 2017 NHL Entry Draft was drafted prior to the GM change and just outside the top 10.

He is the one however that seems to locked in at present on RHD side with only Brodie a LHD playing the right and Holl on the Leafs depth chart as his competion for a regular roster spot on the right.

My money is on Knies to be that non 1st round pick (round 2 #57 overall 2021 NHL Entry Draft) that will break through and become a top 6 forward on the Leafs if he continues on this development path.

 

[Mess]

We aren't picking stars outside the top 10, but I absolutely liked Brown who just got buried due to stacked RW at the time. He's def a solid player in the league. Not that I'm a fan of the Morrison regime, but I'll give credit on that.

Connor Brown as I'm sure you're aware the back story here, who was one of those long-shots that broke through against the odds.

I remember him being drafted into the OHL by Erie Otters in the 10th or 11th round (IIRC) of the OHL draft as a 16 year old and entered the league at like 5'-6" 139lbs

A late growth spurt saw him shoot up to 6' 180 and a dynamic OHL player as he became a teammate of Connor McDavid, after the Leafs took a long-shot flyer in the 6th round in 2012.

There was a lot of luck involved, perhaps moreso than even scouting skill in that Morrison pick at that time.

 

[zeke]

Connor Brown as I'm sure you're aware the back story here, who was one of those long-shots that broke through against the odds.

I remember him being drafted into the OHL by Erie Otters in the 10th or 11th round (IIRC) of the OHL draft as a 16 year old and entered the league at like 5'-6" 139lbs and become a teammate of Connor McDavid,

A late growth spurt saw him shoot up to 6' 180 and a dynamic OHL player after the Leafs took a long-shot flyer in the 6th round in 2012.

There was a lot of luck involved, perhaps even then scouting skill in that Morrison pick at that time.

thanks for agreeing that it is smart to draft undersized skill, Mess.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Like my financial status in college, poor.

 

[93LEAFS]

Connor Brown as I'm sure you're aware the back story here, who was one of those long-shots that broke through against the odds.

I remember him being drafted into the OHL by Erie Otters in the 10th or 11th round (IIRC) of the OHL draft as a 16 year old and entered the league at like 5'-6" 139lbs

A late growth spurt saw him shoot up to 6' 180 and a dynamic OHL player as he became a teammate of Connor McDavid, after the Leafs took a long-shot flyer in the 6th round in 2012.

There was a lot of luck involved, perhaps moreso than even scouting skill in that Morrison pick at that time.

To be honest, the draft is like black jack without counting cards. Be informed of your odds, but its a crap shoot. Like, who do the Avs take at 4 if Patrick and Makar are on the board. Its about making informed bets, not reckless ones. But, you can't botch top 10 picks. All I was saying is Connor Brown is a player, and to get him in the 6th is worth something. Even if I think Morrison was trash. Our best pick the last 12 year was arguably Rielly. I'd say it's Marner, but Rielly was def more against the grain, and for whatever faults he has, he is a helluva player.

 

[ACC1224]

I'm not fooled into thinking quantity by making multiple 4ths, 5th , 3 X 6th and 3 X 7ths ( outside the top 120 picks in a draft) all count as equals when you trade away your 1st and 2nd round picks and pretend it doesn't matter.

Look at all those 6th and 7th rounders??? So no problem dealing away our 1st in 4 straight draft classes when you can baffle them with quantity to hide the quality lost.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Draft[/TH]
[TH]Num.[/TH]
[TH]Round[/TH]
[TH]Player[/TH]
[TH]Pos[/TH]
[TH]Drafted From[/TH]
[TH]GP[/TH]
[TH]G[/TH]
[TH]A[/TH]
[TH]Pts[/TH]
[TH]PIM[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2020 Entry[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]Rodion Amirov[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]Ufa Salavat Yulayev [KHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]59[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Roni Hirvonen[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]Assat Pori [SM-liiga][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]64[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]Topi Niemela[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Karpat [SM-liiga][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Artur Akhtyamov[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]Kazan Jrs. (Russia)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]122[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]William Villeneuve[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]137[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]Dmitry Ovchinnikov[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]Novosibirsk Jrs. (Russia)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]168[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Veeti Miettinen[/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD]Espoo Jrs. (Finland)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]177[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Axel Rindell[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Jukurit Mikkeli [SM-liiga][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]180[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Joe Miller[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]Blake School (Minn. H.S.)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]189[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]John Fusco[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Dexter Southfield (Mass. H.S.)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]195[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Wyatt Schingoethe[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD]Waterloo Black Hawks [USHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]213[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Ryan Tverberg[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]Toronto Jr. Canadiens [OJHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

For a good laugh why don't you drill down on some of those 6th and 7th rounders above (with the links provided) and check out their size and their last year stats and then perhaps provide a timeline when you think they will be making their NHL debuts with our Leafs. I'm most excited about 5'-8" / 146lbs centre Joe Miller who is still playing in the USHL now 2+ years post draft.

Yeah they aren’t fooling anyone.

 

[Leaf Fans]

We are in so much trouble in 2 years when Dubas is gone.

We can still re-sign him.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I'm not fooled into thinking quantity by making multiple 4ths, 5th , 3 X 6th and 3 X 7ths ( outside the top 120 picks in a draft) all count as equals when you trade away your 1st and 2nd round picks and pretend it doesn't matter.

Look at all those 6th and 7th rounders??? So no problem dealing away our 1st in 4 straight draft classes when you can baffle them with quantity to hide the quality lost.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Draft[/TH]
[TH]Num.[/TH]
[TH]Round[/TH]
[TH]Player[/TH]
[TH]Pos[/TH]
[TH]Drafted From[/TH]
[TH]GP[/TH]
[TH]G[/TH]
[TH]A[/TH]
[TH]Pts[/TH]
[TH]PIM[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2020 Entry[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]Rodion Amirov[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]Ufa Salavat Yulayev [KHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]59[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Roni Hirvonen[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]Assat Pori [SM-liiga][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]64[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]Topi Niemela[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Karpat [SM-liiga][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Artur Akhtyamov[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]Kazan Jrs. (Russia)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]122[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]William Villeneuve[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]137[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]Dmitry Ovchinnikov[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]Novosibirsk Jrs. (Russia)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]168[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Veeti Miettinen[/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD]Espoo Jrs. (Finland)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]177[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Axel Rindell[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Jukurit Mikkeli [SM-liiga][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]180[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Joe Miller[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]Blake School (Minn. H.S.)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]189[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]John Fusco[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]Dexter Southfield (Mass. H.S.)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]195[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Wyatt Schingoethe[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD]Waterloo Black Hawks [USHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020 Entry[/TD]
[TD]213[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Ryan Tverberg[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]Toronto Jr. Canadiens [OJHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

For a good laugh why don't you drill down on some of those 6th and 7th rounders above (with the links provided) and check out their size and their last year stats and then perhaps provide a timeline when you think they will be making their NHL debuts with our Leafs. I'm most excited about 5'-8" / 146lbs centre Joe Miller who is still playing in the USHL now 2+ years post draft.

It will be interesting to see what he does at Harvard. He will have to be weight lifting. I think he needs to put on weight but he is as you say, exciting and has has a non stop engine. Tverberg is the player that most excites me.

 

[Mess]

To be honest, the draft is like black jack without counting cards. Be informed of your odds, but its a crap shoot. Its about making informed bets, not reckless ones. But, you can't botch top 10 picks. All I was saying is Connor Brown is a player, and to get him in the 6th is worth something. Even if I think Morrison was trash.

When you're making a 6th round pick on a Connor Brown and you know the historical success rate of all 6th round picks across the entire NHL is < 5% success combined of all picks from that round, and your pick hits its like found gold, because the other picks in that round are more like iron pyrite, also known as fool's gold.

 

[Dekes For Days]

When you're making a 6th round pick on a Connor Brown and you know the historical success rate of all 6th round picks across the entire NHL is < 5% success

If you're aware that the historical success rate of all 6th round picks is so low, why were you insinuating that a late 6th round pick was a failure of a pick because he wasn't in the NHL at age 19, and how do you rationalize attributing that potential outcome to his size, and not the draft position that you acknowledge makes him a longshot regardless of size?

 

[Mess]

Yeah they aren’t fooling anyone.

Maybe they're only fooling themselves and don't know any better.

... but when your next draft class looks like this, and you feel compelled to defend each and every move the organization makes, then you have no choice but to resort to Quantity vs Quality smoke screen and hide behind a bunch of 6th and 7th late rounders from previous draft class to try and blur the truth, and hope nobody is paying attention.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Draft[/TH]
[TH]Num.[/TH]
[TH]Round[/TH]
[TH]Player[/TH]
[TH]Pos[/TH]
[TH]Drafted From[/TH]
[TH]GP[/TH]
[TH]G[/TH]
[TH]A[/TH]
[TH]Pts[/TH]
[TH]PIM[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2021 Entry[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2021 Entry[/TD]
[TD]57[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Matthew Knies[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]Tri-City Storm [USHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2021 Entry[/TD]
[TD]153[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]Ty Voit[/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD]Sarnia Sting [OHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2021 Entry[/TD]
[TD]185[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Vyacheslav Peksa[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]IRBIS KAZAN[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The only thing worse that guarantees you zero success when it comes to draft picks, is those ones you trade away and never make.

Losing in the first round every year comes at a steep price to your future well beyond an early exit when you need to use draft capital to prop up that failure. The impact is not immediate but you're still going to pay the piper years down the road when the prospect pool dries up and there is no help coming internally.

 

[Mess]

To be honest, the draft is like black jack without counting cards. Be informed of your odds, but its a crap shoot. Like, who do the Avs take at 4 if Patrick and Makar are on the board. Its about making informed bets, not reckless ones. But, you can't botch top 10 picks. All I was saying is Connor Brown is a player, and to get him in the 6th is worth something.

This last years draft class is going to be a perfect example to test this theory of yours and evaluate the Leafs amateur scouting ability. and if this is about making informed bets or reckless ones.

Back ground story .. As a result of the Mrazek UFA signing mistake it costs the Leafs their 1st round pick in 2022 and returned Chicago 2nd #38 overall. Leafs had already also traded their 2nd (+ 2 more high picks) for 39 year old Giordano. their 3rd away for David Rittich and 4th away for Nick Foligno, 5th Ben Hutton etc etc.,

So Leafs essentially have 1 shot in the top 100 picks of this draft and they used that on Frazer Minton, and already forced to get a lower ranked prospect as opposed to picking at #25 in the 1st.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Draft[/TH]
[TH]Num.[/TH]
[TH]Round[/TH]
[TH]Player[/TH]
[TH]Pos[/TH]
[TH]Drafted From[/TH]
[TH]GP[/TH]
[TH]G[/TH]
[TH]A[/TH]
[TH]Pts[/TH]
[TH]PIM[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2022 Entry[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH]NHL Totals[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2022 Entry[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Fraser Minten[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]Kamloops Blazers [WHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2022 Entry[/TD]
[TD]95[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]Nick Moldenhauer[/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD]Chicago Steel [USHL][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2022 Entry[/TD]
[TD]122[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Dennis Hildeby[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]Farjestads Jr. [Swe-Jr][/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
�

Now in terms of draft capital Minton only received a late 2nd to mid 3rd round grade across most scouting agencies.

Ranked #47 by TSN/BOB McKENZIE
Ranked #101 by MCKEEN'S HOCKEY
Ranked #85 by TSN/CRAIG BUTTON
Ranked #28 by NHL CENTRAL SCOUTING (NA Skaters)
Ranked #68 by RECRUIT SCOUTING
Ranked #94 by DOBBERPROSPECTS
Ranked #67 by DRAFT PROSPECTS HOCKEY
Ranked #92 by SMAHT SCOUTING
Ranked #70 by THE PUCK AUTHORITY

So the Leafs taking him at #38 overall appears was a massive reach, that even most of Leafs Nation fans that follow the entry draft closely didn't see coming, and done mostly as a fallout because they had already emptied the draft cupboard heading into the draft fueling past playoff failures. Leafs did re-acquire a late 3rd (#94 overall) when they dealt Travis Dermott to Vancouver but Minton wouldn't have lasted that long.

So all eyes will be on Minton in the future and his development now to evaluate Leafs scouting ability, not only on his success but all the players ranked higher and drafted after that Leafs passed on to make what looks more like reckless pick (your term) then an informed bet. You and I both believe the Leafs left a lot of meat on the bone to make this pick.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Leafs had already also traded their 2nd (+ 2 more high picks) for 39 year old Giordano

Giordano is 38 (and a few years removed from a Norris), not 39, and we received both Giordano (50% retained) and Blackwell.

So Leafs essentially have 1 shot in the top 100 picks of this draft and they use that on Frazer Minton.

They had two picks in the top 100 this past year. You literally posted the picks in the exact same post, so not sure how you missed that.

Leafs did re-acquire a late 3rd (#94 overall) when they dealt Travis Dermott to Vancouver but Minton wouldn't have lasted that long.

Leafs acquired #79 as a result of the Dermott trade. They then moved down and acquired another draft pick. Also, if you're acknowledging that Minten wouldn't have lasted until then, then I'm not sure how you're simultaneously claiming he was a "massive reach".

So the Leafs taking him at #38 overall appears was a massive reach

No, it doesn't look like that at all.

 

[Zybalto]

The weird underrating of Sandin just because he got hurt last season stands out to me in here.

Hes absolutely at Liljegrens level and probably higher (while being younger) One of the best dmen his age in the league last season and hes only going to get better. I remember the olden days (a year and a half ago) when Liljegren was a bust and Sandin was the best prospect ever around here. The hot takes are pretty funny sometimes.

As far as overall drafting goes, its been hit and miss. Middle of the pack team overall with a chance to be better or worse based on how the young guns make the jump.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

picking marner with all those options still on the board makes hunter the clear winner over dubas for now. sandin and durzi cant cancel out sticking with marner, half the org wanted marner and other half wanted hanifin so marner doesnt count as a "even a monkey could have picked him" pick.

add in liljegren and dubas is way behind right now. lots of nice profiles to read but nothing concrete yet. if some start making impacts then he can climb back up

What makes you think Dubas didn't want Marner? As far as I've seen, the only one pushing for Hanifin was Babcock.

 

[Mess]

Giordano is 38 (and a few years removed from a Norris), not 39, and we received both Giordano (50% retained) and Blackwell.

No, it doesn't look like that at all.

You and your semantics nonsense so let me put this as clearly so you can understand the point, Giordano is 38 years old today but will turn 39 on Oct 3 before the next season 2022-23 begins and they re-signed him for 2 years to play at age 39 and 40.

The Toronto Maple Leafs announced today that the hockey club has acquired defenceman Mark Giordano and forward Colin Blackwell from the Seattle Kraken in exchange for a second-round selection in the 2022 NHL Draft, a second-round selection in the 2023 NHL Draft and a third-round selection in the 2024 NHL Draft.

Now had the Leafs traded Nick Robertson, Matthew Knies and Topi Niemela for then 38 year old Mark Giordano would you have supported that move?

Now I would hope you would say "NO WAY" that is a ridiculous cost for Giordano at his age and limited NHL longevity left. Well like it not that is exactly the same cost the Leafs just paid out of their future prospect pool via similar picks cost.

Here is how using Leafs own surviving prospects by whom Leaf Nation Fans rank their own prospect pool rankings and top prospects in the system.

Rankings:
1. Knies, Matthew - 77.1% .....[Drafted - round 2 #57 overall 2021 NHL Entry Draft]
2. Robertson, Nick - 47.6% ....[Drafted - round 2 #53 overall 2019 NHL Entry Draft]
3. Niemela, Topi - 82.2% .........[Drafted - round 3 #64 overall 2020 NHL Entry Draft]

So by trading their 2nds in 2022 & 2023 and 3rd in 2024 for GIO that is the same equivalent in opportunity cost draft capital of Leafs dealing away their 3 X best prospects which they obtained with the very similar cost in 2nd and 3rd round draft capital from prior drafts.

The Leafs just surrendered the opportunity costs of doubling up on their top prospects but instead sacrificed it for a very SHORT term gain of playing the oldest skater in the NHL and Leafs future prospect pool just took a massive hit to do so. So instead of putting 18 year old kids into the prospect pool Leafs added +20 years to dress a 38 year old, and will be still paying off in draft pick after Gio has retired.

 

[andora]

You and your semantics nonsense so let me put this as clearly so you can understand the point, Giordano is 38 years old today but will turn 39 on Oct 3 before the next season 2022-23 begins and they re-signed him for 2 years to play at age 39 and 40.

The Toronto Maple Leafs announced today that the hockey club has acquired defenceman Mark Giordano and forward Colin Blackwell from the Seattle Kraken in exchange for a second-round selection in the 2022 NHL Draft, a second-round selection in the 2023 NHL Draft and a third-round selection in the 2024 NHL Draft.

Now had the Leafs traded Nick Robertson, Matthew Knies and Topi Niemela for then 38 year old Mark Giordano would you have supported that move?

Now I would hope you would say "NO WAY" that is a ridiculous cost for Giordano at his age and limited NHL longevity left. Well like it not that is exactly the same cost the Leafs just paid out of their future prospect pool via similar picks cost.

Here is how using Leafs own surviving prospects by whom Leaf Nation ranks their own prospect pool rankings and drafting.

Rankings:
1. Knies, Matthew - 77.1% .....[Drafted - round 2 #57 overall 2021 NHL Entry Draft]
2. Robertson, Nick - 47.6% ....[Drafted - round 2 #53 overall 2019 NHL Entry Draft]
3. Niemela, Topi - 82.2% .........[Drafted - round 3 #64 overall 2020 NHL Entry Draft]

So by trading their 2nds in 2022 & 2023 and 3rd in 2024 for GIO that is the same equivalent in opportunity cost of Leafs dealing away their 3 X best prospects which they obtained with vewry similar cost in 2nd and 3rd round draft capital from prior drafts.

The Leafs just surrendered the opportunity costs of doubling up on their top prospects but instead sacrificed it for a very SHORT term gain of playing the oldest skater in the NHL and Leafs future prospect pool just took a massive hit to do so. So instead of putting 18 year old kids into the prospect pool Leafs added +20 years to dress a 38 year old, and will be still paying off in draft pick after Gio has retired.

I can see a little of this argument.. the deeper you go in the draft in general the lesser the talent and therefore the more time and effort has to be put into developing them for a coin flip

 

[Menzinger]

And poor Joe Miller. A guy probably almost nobody here has seen play always gets disrespected in the prospect discussions lol

 

[Maplebeasts]

The weird underrating of Sandin just because he got hurt last season stands out to me in here.

Hes absolutely at Liljegrens level and probably higher (while being younger) One of the best dmen his age in the league last season and hes only going to get better. I remember the olden days (a year and a half ago) when Liljegren was a bust and Sandin was the best prospect ever around here. The hot takes are pretty funny sometimes.

As far as overall drafting goes, its been hit and miss. Middle of the pack team overall with a chance to be better or worse based on how the young guns make the jump.

Yeah no. Sandin is good but Liljegren was way better last season. Better point production in total, per game and per minute while also leading the Leafs in most play-driving and defensive stats. I wouldn't be surprised if he's playing on the top pairing by the TDL.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

And poor Joe Miller. A guy probably almost nobody here has seen play always gets disrespected in the prospect discussions lol

Plus the posters you usually see posting that our prospect pool and drafting has been terrible are never seen in the prospects or draft threads.