How much faith do you have in the core 4?

[Dough72]

they can win a Stanley Cup but first they need to be deprogrammed from Shanahan and Dubas telling them they don't need to bodycheck or stand up for themselves and that they can skate the puck through the neutral zone in the playoffs. They also need a manager who is far better at building a supporting cast with bang-for-your-buck players especially ones suited for the playoffs. Shanahan and Dubas keep failing miserably at it the only decent players they find cost too much so you're basically just getting what you paid for which is something even the worst managers in history were capable of. Like Kerfoot Brodie and Muzzin are decent players but for 15 million a better manager finds a gaggle of 2-3mil players to fill out his roster and all of them are suited for playoff hockey

 

[57 Years No Cup]

How quickly people forget our decade of finishing 9th-11th every year.

Sure because finishing 5th and being out in the first round is so much better.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

You'll never see a more talented bunch of losers leafs Core 4 in your lifetimes.

Edited for accuracy.

 

[sxvnert]

Soon to be core 5 when dubas overpays for hamiltons services.

 

[zeke]

Have you watched the last 5 years of post season hockey?

I've watched them easily make the playoffs 5yrs in a row for just the 2nd time in my life, and they ain't missing anytime soon.

 

[myleafs]

Dude he was reading the angle of the skater and took a route to box him out, the skater obviously played possum and let Marner think he was going high. Not a good example of him not blocking a shot... or doing anything wrong besides not reading the play correctly, happens to everyone.

lol....Really?.....really?.....

 

[myleafs]

Makes sense.

It really doesn't. I get that you like Marner but come on man get real. If your take of that play is sincere which I have doubts then...wow...just...wow.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

After three years, the sample size isn't that small any more. Hockey career's ain't that long, three consecutive years of playoff suckage represents a good chunk of any players career.



Exactly.



Five straight first round exits suggests that maybe this core isn't as good as you think. According to calculations done by Dom at the Athletic, the odds of the Leafs losing all five series was 1.4% or something like that yet when all the chips are in the pot, the Leafs just fold without a fight like a spineless bunch of losers every damn time.



Fair question. Considering who it is you're asking though, don't expect a straight answer. At best you're gonna get a snootful of spin.



Some variability would be nice. Unfortunately we just lose every year, as consistent as consistent can be. And in deciding games, oh boy do we ever stink in those. You've probably heard the phrase "rising to the occasion", basically we do the opposite.

So if they win a round next year, lose in the 2nd round - the core is okay and can win as evidenced by winning a round? You'll eat that crow and say you were wrong and the core 4 wasn't flawed?

I'm trying to understand, because while its not an excuse, one bounce has them in the second round (maybe conference finals if you're as down on WPG as I am). They didn't get there, they need to make changes - but the idea they're light years away or this team somehow cannot get that bounce that gets them there as long as they keep Matthews, Marner, JT, and Willy - makes absolutely no sense to me. If you want to trade Marner for an appropriate return, sure - fine, I just don't think they can ever win that trade - and I wouldn't make it cause the core is "flawed" as players/men.4

On the sample size issue - that's not how math and probability work. Abscence of another larger sample size to evaluate them on does not mean you should evaluate them on a smaller sample size that does exist. "3 years of playoff suckage" = 19 games. It shows issues, sure, things you'd want to adjust - areas you'd want your players to improve in - but chalking it up to "absolutely cannot get it done, 19 games proves that" just because we haven't seen the next 50 games is silly.

 

[Bomber0104]

I've watched them easily make the playoffs 5yrs in a row for just the 2nd time in my life, and they ain't missing anytime soon.

And in not a single one of those years did they play playoff hockey.

I don't know if we'll be able to afford Matthews and Marner by the time they figure that out, assuming they ever do..

They'll probably charge Dubas $20 million a year for that though.

 

[Bomber0104]

This is all loser talk.

I guarantee that if the leafs are ever successful in the playoffs, it won't be "luck" to all of you and your ilk. It will be "genius" Dubas and our "generationally" talented young core.

Correct.

It must be nice to live in a world where you can never be wrong, in the Dubas world.

Failure = bad luck
Success= I'm smrt

The unluckiest rookie GM/coach/President combo of all time.

 

[rumman]

I've watched them easily make the playoffs 5yrs in a row for just the 2nd time in my life, and they ain't missing anytime soon.

Didn’t make the playoffs last year against Colombus, so there goes your rose coloured narrative.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

And in not a single one of those years did they play playoff hockey.

I don't know if we'll be able to afford Matthews and Marner by the time they figure that out, assuming they ever do..

They'll probably charge Dubas $20 million a year for that though.

If Mikheyev taps in the empty netter they're in the 2nd round and the habs - who make the finals, are out in 5 games first round, blowing up their core and management. Game of inches. They didn't get it done - but this is a perfect example of why you don't make franchise altering decisions solely off of results.

Yes ifs and buts don't mean anything. But if you're going to make grand statements like "they don't play playoff hockey" as if it's so clear and obvious in a sport with this much variance... not sure what to tell you.

 

[Racer88]

Didn’t make the playoffs last year against Colombus, so there goes your rose coloured narrative.

Yup True story. They lost in the play - in round

 

[Bomber0104]

If Mikheyev taps in the empty netter they're in the 2nd round and the habs - who make the finals, are out in 5 games first round, blowing up their core and management. Game of inches. They didn't get it done - but this is a perfect example of why you don't make franchise altering decisions solely off of results.

Yes ifs and buts don't mean anything. But if you're going to make grand statements like "they don't play playoff hockey" as if it's so clear and obvious in a sport with this much variance... not sure what to tell you.

So you're telling me I should feel hopeful this lineup wins a Cup because Ilya Mikheyev missed a tap in?

Give me a break.

And give everyone else reading this a break too.

They lost to the worst team in the playoffs that wouldn't even have made it in a normal year.

And not just lost, but blew a 3-1 series lead.

Bad luck you say?

Well they also lost a play-in series to a Pierre-Luc Dubois-led Columbus Blue Jackets in an equally submissive way, to just qualify for the playoffs!

Luck?

Get out here.

Bunch of losers in this crew's managment from the top down.

Bunch of wimps on the team signed by the aforementioned losers.

There's a reason there's no one left defending this team anymore.

You should follow suit.

 

[Racer88]

So you're telling me I should feel hopeful this lineup wins a Cup because Ilya Mikheyev missed a tap in?

Give me a break.

And give everyone else reading this a break too.

They lost to the worst team in the playoffs that wouldn't even have made it in a normal year.

And not just lost, but blew a 3-1 series lead.

Bad luck you say?

Well they also lost a play-in series to a Pierre-Luc Dubois-led Columbus Blue Jackets in an equally submissive way, to just qualify for the playoffs!

Luck?

Get out here.

Bunch of losers in this crew's managment from the top down.

Bunch of wimps on the team signed by the aforementioned losers.

There's a reason there's no one left defending this team anymore.

You should follow suit.

They have also a loss to a Zamboni driver in net for the opposition to add to their resume. If that isn’t the most embarrassing thing I don’t know what is.

 

[ToneDog]

I still think one of the 4 should be a quality D. We need an anchor on the back.

At 75% you would have 10m to sign that quality dman and more.

 

[IPS]

I've watched them easily make the playoffs 5yrs in a row for just the 2nd time in my life, and they ain't missing anytime soon.

He said postseason hockey - not regular season.

 

[Bomber0104]

He said postseason hockey - not regular season.

Here's evidence we have the best players that will win us a Stanley Cup:

{EXPECTED GOALS NUMBERS FROM THE REGULAR SEASON WHEN PLAYED AT EVEN-STENGTH COPY AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER SITE}

Checkmate!

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

So you're telling me I should feel hopeful this lineup wins a Cup because Ilya Mikheyev missed a tap in?

Give me a break.

And give everyone else reading this a break too.

They lost to the worst team in the playoffs that wouldn't even have made it in a normal year.

And not just lost, but blew a 3-1 series lead.

Bad luck you say?

Well they also lost a play-in series to a Pierre-Luc Dubois-led Columbus Blue Jackets in an equally submissive way, to just qualify for the playoffs!

Luck?

Get out here.

Bunch of losers in this crew's managment from the top down.

Bunch of wimps on the team signed by the aforementioned losers.

There's a reason there's no one left defending this team anymore.

You should follow suit.

Nah you're just being dramatic about a sport that has historically been very random and you and many others simply refuse to acknowledge that just because a result works out one way doesn't mean that's the way it's going to always work out.

Dallas beat Colorado and Vegas last year and then missed the playoffs this year. Shit happens. Bet on talent eventually breaking through. If a bunch of these teams can miss the playoffs most years then go on a run, a team that makes it most years certainly can at some point and doesn't need to trade one of their young stars because people are upset that they didn't win this year.

They got to be better. They probably will be given their talent level. That doesn't change just because you're upset about it.

That worst team making the playoffs beat Vegas, who beat Colorado. Fold every one of these teams aside from Tampa by your logic. Sport is random and Price went vintage for 3 rounds. Have a drink and lighten up.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So if they win a round next year, lose in the 2nd round - the core is okay and can win as evidenced by winning a round? You'll eat that crow and say you were wrong and the core 4 wasn't flawed?

I'm trying to understand, because while its not an excuse, one bounce has them in the second round (maybe conference finals if you're as down on WPG as I am). They didn't get there, they need to make changes - but the idea they're light years away or this team somehow cannot get that bounce that gets them there as long as they keep Matthews, Marner, JT, and Willy - makes absolutely no sense to me. If you want to trade Marner for an appropriate return, sure - fine, I just don't think they can ever win that trade - and I wouldn't make it cause the core is "flawed" as players/men.4

On the sample size issue - that's not how math and probability work. Abscence of another larger sample size to evaluate them on does not mean you should evaluate them on a smaller sample size that does exist. "3 years of playoff suckage" = 19 games. It shows issues, sure, things you'd want to adjust - areas you'd want your players to improve in - but chalking it up to "absolutely cannot get it done, 19 games proves that" just because we haven't seen the next 50 games is silly.

Winning one round next year doesn't make the core okay. This year where I set the bar was to win two rounds and then play to the best of their abilities win or lose after that. And this year was a golden opportunity, next year the path to the 3rd round will be much, much tougher. And the issue isn't so much the core, it's how much of the cap they take up making the team too top heavy.

It's not about winning trades, it's about building the best team you can build. Let's be honest here, this team has been less then the sum of it's parts for some time now. Trade Marner and you will get a ton back, zero reason you can't at least break even on the trade and end up with a much better team. I keep hearing you can't win a Marner trade, I call BS, there is zero reason we can't win a Marner trade.

I'm not saying that "absolutely cannot get it done". I am saying that at this point it is highly unlikely that they can get it done. I don't see how we win a cup with 4 forwards taking up this much of the cap, especially when one of them is Marner who has been a disappointment and frankly, his attitude doesn't exactly inspire confidence that he will ever change. Miracles happen and anything's possible but I'd like our chances for future success much better if we were to change course sooner (like now) as opposed to later. You've probably heard the saying that winning breeds winning, well losing also breeds losing and we're the leading breeder of playoff losers at this point and with the path next season being harder, we're not likely to go deep next year either. Maybe, and that's a HUGE freaking maybe we'll get past one round but then we'll likely get crushed like little cockroaches by TB and then what? Maybe some people will be happy saying oh wow, we won a round, we're headed in the right direction but I won't be one of them.

You can say we were just one bounce away, Ok that's one way of looking at it. Here's another, when it all comes down to one game, we don't even show up to play. When it's the deciding game, we're nowhere near close to winning, it's like we're not even competing. We weren't one bounce away from beating Boston, once we got crushed in the 3rd period of game 7 and once we got crushed in game 7 from start to finish. The deciding game against CLB was another where we didn't even show up and same goes for our pathetic performance against MTL. This team seems to looks for any sign of adversity so they can fold their tent and go home. This team isn't one bounce away from winning anything, unless you consider beating a team who we were huge favourites against some sort of victory - I don't.

There's something very wrong with this team the way it is and it's time for a change. And I don't mean shuffling around bottom 6 wingers, I mean moving a core piece and Marner is the obvious candidate.

 

[Bomber0104]

Nah you're just being dramatic about a sport that has historically been very random and you and many others simply refuse to acknowledge that just because a result works out one way doesn't mean that's the way it's going to always work out.

Dallas beat Colorado and Vegas last year and then missed the playoffs this year. Shit happens. Bet on talent eventually breaking through. If a bunch of these teams can miss the playoffs most years then go on a run, a team that makes it most years certainly can at some point and doesn't need to trade one of their young stars because people are upset that they didn't win this year.

They got to be better. They probably will be given their talent level. That doesn't change just because you're upset about it.

The result has worked out the exact same way year after year, though.

Losing in the first round 5 years in a row is hardly random at all.

And I'm not upset since I've been calling Dubas' shit out this entire time.

I was upset when he was first hired and I knew this shit-show we're witnessing now was at risk of happening.

And here we have it.

I expect winning, and you accept, no, APPRECIATE losing.

Let's make that difference perfectly clear.

The difference in what YOU appreciate versus what I cannot tolerate which is losing.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

The result has worked out the exact same way year after year, though.

Losing in the first round 5 years in a row is hardly random at all.

And I'm not upset since I've been calling Dubas' shit out this entire time.

I was upset when he was first hired and I knew this shit show was at risk of happening.

And here we have it.

Its extremely random. Even if the core was as flawed as you believe it to be it would be incredibly random to lose 5 straight first round series. That's the way math works. A 2% chance of something means it should happen 2/100 times. Which means it happens.

Dubas built the best d core in the past 20 years this franchise has had 1 through 6. They got 1 goal from Matthew's and marner and Tavares was hurt while Price went vintage. A lot of things had to go wrong but they win that series more often than not if they replay it. It's fine. I'd rather take my chances with elite talent this team hasnt had in 20 years than trade it away.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I've watched them easily make the playoffs 5yrs in a row for just the 2nd time in my life, and they ain't missing anytime soon.

We're young, talented and we make the playoffs. Big f***ing deal. I swear you have to be the happiest loser I've ever encountered. It's embarrassing to have fans like you who brag how historically great a team is that has lost 5 PO series in a row. The only reason they're historically "great" is because of how pathetically bad the history has been. Compare this team's "accomplishments" to the accomplishments of some of the good teams around the NHL and you'd be laughed off of this board if you were to brag about it. But what hell, you constantly brag about us when we haven't won squat and people laugh at you all the time anyway so more power to you. The loser mentality is so deeply ingrained, some people are beyond hope I guess.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

The result has worked out the exact same way year after year, though.

Losing in the first round 5 years in a row is hardly random at all.

And I'm not upset since I've been calling Dubas' shit out this entire time.

I was upset when he was first hired and I knew this shit-show we're witnessing now was at risk of happening.

And here we have it.

I expect winning, and you accept, no, APPRECIATE losing.

Let's make that difference perfectly clear.

The difference in what YOU appreciate versus what I cannot tolerate which is losing.

It's not about tolerating losing. It's about understanding results do not equal causation. By this logic Washington should have traded one of Ovechkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov right?

 

[Gary Nylund]

The result has worked out the exact same way year after year, though.

Losing in the first round 5 years in a row is hardly random at all.

And I'm not upset since I've been calling Dubas' shit out this entire time.

I was upset when he was first hired and I knew this shit-show we're witnessing now was at risk of happening.

And here we have it.

I expect winning, and you accept, no, APPRECIATE losing.

Let's make that difference perfectly clear.

The difference in what YOU appreciate versus what I cannot tolerate which is losing.

Exactly. This "random" nonsense is one of the more baffling narratives around here lately.