How many first round loses is Dubas allowed before he should be fired?

[Gary Nylund]

Still not sure why everyone moans about Kadri. All the guy ever did in the playoffs was get suspended. And not just with the Leafs.

I think a lot of people prefer moaning to thinking these days so any excuse will do. It's an easy way to deal with a complex situation - instead of thinking through the complexities, just bitch and moan and chant "blow it up". It might be a sign of the times as well, in this world of 10 second sound bytes we live in, many people have lost the ability to deal with complex situations, or then they never learned to begin with.

 

[ShaneFalco]

What exactly would firing Dubas accomplish anyway? We'd get a "better" GM? You sure about that? How do you know?

And what constitutes a "better" GM? A guy who gets playoff caliber players? What's a playoff caliber player? Good, tough defensive guys who show up in the playoffs? So guys like Giordano? Oh, wait, that's exactly what Dubas did...

Oh, you meant get a great goalie? Oh, sure, that's REAL easy. Leafs have only been searching for one for years and finally got one that didn't instantly choke. Campbell was actually good enough to get the job done.

So for all intents and purposes, Dubas did his job. EVERYONE did their jobs. The only people who DIDN'T do their jobs was the players shooting mindlessly at Vasilevskiy with all these low danger shots. And even then, the Leafs TECHNICALLY scored two goals and played to a tie, but ended up losing a goal on a technicality.

So I don't know what you guys are expecting to happen here. This is finger pointing and that's all that's to it. Once everyone has had a chance to take a breath and get some oxygen to their brains, you'll all realize how pointless all of this is. The fact of the matter is that was the best Leafs team EVER. They lost not because they choked or because the goalie crapped the bed or because blah blah blah...they lost because one of their goals didn't count. That's it.

If anything, the people who were able to put together that team have the best chance of putting together a similar team than ANY OTHER COMBINATION OF PERSONAL. The reality is changing all the key players now, from a team operating at its height, is FAR more likely to result in a lesser performance than a team remaining fully intact and using its resources to find that one piece they're missing.

Yes absolve Dubas of everything
The best team EVER in the regular season - who cares? Really, who fricken cares? They were a great regular team when Dubas was hired. They've gone nowhere
A GM who is not stuck in his "vision" that has failed year after year - who coddles players and seems to think just throwing in a random mix of players to the core each year will help!
Finger pointing lol. Just amazing some still defend the guy. We don't even have a goalie for next year!

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Not sure what you mean. I think you have things backwards. The thread title literally asks a "tunnel vision" question, and my post identifies that there are more "facets" that need to be considered than exclusively the one mentioned in the title.

What facets did you consider when you wanted Lou replaced with Dubas?

 

[Bomber0104]

Still not sure why everyone moans about Kadri. All the guy ever did in the playoffs was get suspended. And not just with the Leafs.

*Checks Kadri's numbers versus Kerfoot's*

You'll have to excuse me, I just felt the sudden urge to puke my guts out..

 

[ACC1224]

Still not sure why everyone moans about Kadri. All the guy ever did in the playoffs was get suspended. And not just with the Leafs.

There are a few who are unable to determine for themselves what’s going on so defer to management being infallible and just running everything back in hopes that one day they get it right.
Kadri is just an example of a heart and soul player, many value that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yes absolve Dubas of everything
The best team EVER in the regular season - who cares? Really, who fricken cares? They were a great regular team when Dubas was hired. They've gone nowhere
A GM who is not stuck in his "vision" that has failed year after year - who coddles players and seems to think just throwing in a random mix of players to the core each year will help!
Finger pointing lol. Just amazing some still defend the guy. We don't even have a goalie for next year!

I have to say that I'm impressed by your stamina. Our season's been over for a couple of weeks, you're still ranting away and don't seem to be losing any steam at all.

 

[Future]

The grass isn’t always greener. There are MANY terrible GM’s in the league, and Dubas isn’t one of them.

He has a long term vision for sustained success. That’s all you can really do as a GM. Put your roster in a position to compete for the cup every year and hope they breakthrough and win it all. Only one winner every year.

 

[ShaneFalco]

The grass isn’t always greener. There are MANY terrible GM’s in the league, and Dubas isn’t one of them.

He has a long term vision for sustained success. That’s all you can really do as a GM. Put your roster in a position to compete for the cup every year and hope they breakthrough and win it all. Only one winner every year.

Wow!
So extend him then - what 5-6 years? One day they'll just break-through. Results don't matter just having a vision apparently. Sad what some fans believe is a "success" these days

 

[Bomber0104]

The grass isn’t always greener. There are MANY terrible GM’s in the league, and Dubas isn’t one of them.

He has a long term vision for sustained success. That’s all you can really do as a GM. Put your roster in a position to compete for the cup every year and hope they breakthrough and win it all. Only one winner every year.

And in order to win (this may come as a shocker to some) you need to win playoff rounds...

Leafs haven't done that once in all of Dubas time here, which is borderline pathetic.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Wow!
So extend him then - what 5-6 years? One day they'll just break-through. Results don't matter just having a vision apparently. Sad what some fans believe is a "success" these days

How long an extension doesn't really matter, for now the only decision is to keep him for next season or not and it appears that that decision has been made.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What facets did you consider when you wanted Lou replaced with Dubas?

Pretty much everything. He drove the organization he was with before us into the ground, which was concerning. His trade history, his signing history, his drafting, his stupid rules, the unnecessary rifts he was creating with players, his bad history of signing big-name players (with multiple big-name signings upcoming), his inability to address or improve weaknesses (like defense), his shortsightedness, etc. Certainly a lot more than just "he lost in the playoffs, so he sucks".

And for the record, Lou signed on for a very specific amount of time, and everybody involved knew the plan after that.

 

[Mess]

What facets did you consider when you wanted Lou replaced with Dubas?

There aren't any, because some of our younger and newer Leaf fans have known no other Leafs GM but Dubas, just check their sign up date, and if its after May 11th, 2018 Dudas hire date you can confirm that.

Maple Leafs name Kyle Dubas, 32, general manager - CBC​

May 11, 2018

Dubas, 32, succeeds the 75-year-old Lou Lamoriello in the position. Lamoriello was reassigned to the senior adviser position last month after a three-year run as GM.

"The standard of what it is to be a Maple Leaf has transformed thanks to Lou," Dubas said at a news conference at Air Canada Centre. "Now we enter into another part of our journey, which is to reach our ultimate goal of contending perennially to be fighting at this time for the Stanley Cup instead of sitting here."

Dubas is an advocate of analytics and relatively new to the National Hockey League. Lamoriello, meanwhile, is a grizzled veteran of the league who is no stranger to building championship franchises.

Full Story : continues

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

I'll let Kyle Dubas answer your question himself..

Check out that quote from Dubas in his original press conference, when he replaced Lou, where he points out that "they don't want to be sitting here" ie. losing in round #1 so he thinks with his analytics knowledge he will be able to push the Leafs over the top as the next part of the journey.

Now those keeping Kyle Dubas job performance score at home..
2019 - Lost in Boston in round #1
2020 - Lost to Columbus in play-in round #1
2021 - Lost to Montreal in round #1
2022 - Lost of Tampa Bay in round #1

So Kyle is 0-4 in carrying the ball any further than Lou did the 2 years prior with losses to Washington and Boston in round #1 previously. Lou had to take a non playoff team at the bottom of the league and turn it into a perennial playoff team first which he did by drafting Matthews and then going from last overall with 69 points to playoffs with 95 points [+26 point improvement] the very next season. Lou did all the heavy lifting of taking a team that had missed the playoffs 9 of the previous 10 years and turned it into a perennial playoff team and transformed them, setting the stage for the next GM including handing over a young core that included the 3 amigo's AM, MM and WN.

So now older Leaf fans and those that have been here long before Kyle was hired, some before Dubas was even born,, are the ones holding Dubas feet to the flames and want him replaced because his 0-4 record did not achieve a single thing that we didn't already have with the previous GM.

See if you replace a HHOF and Stanley Cup winning GM, with someone new, while coming off a 100 year franchise best season, then its not the regular season results that matter, is simply the playoff round wins that count to see if that goal was achieved. Dubas has run his less then impressive playoff record to 0-10 in series potential clinching games these past 4 years and thus failed even by his own job description.

Lou Lam had 2 chances to advance past round #1, with a young core only 19-20 years old, and Dubas has now had 4 opportunities, with those young core players now in their prime.

 

[ACC1224]

The grass isn’t always greener. There are MANY terrible GM’s in the league, and Dubas isn’t one of them.

He has a long term vision for sustained success. That’s all you can really do as a GM. Put your roster in a position to compete for the cup every year and hope they breakthrough and win it all. Only one winner every year.

Sustained success is the goal no doubt. You first have to have the success before you can sustain it. The Coach doesn't appear to be able to deliver that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

some of our younger and newer Leaf fans have known no other Leafs GM but Dubas

I think it's pretty safe to say the overwhelming majority of people posting here have been following the Leafs for more than 4 years, and there is a recorded history of what Lou did that anybody can look back on anyway.

just check their sign up date, and if its after May 11th, 2018 Dudas hire date you can confirm that.

Having an account on HFboards is not a prerequisite to be a Leaf fan.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Is this from your imaginary friend again?

No it was answered directly at our MLSE sponsorship mtg last week for annual arena sponsors of which one of my 3 companies is a sponsor

 

[Mess]

And in order to win (this may come as a shocker to some) you need to win playoff rounds...

Leafs haven't done that once in all of Dubas time here, which is borderline pathetic.

The irony being that if you flipped the timeline with Dubas and Lou Lam around, and it was Dubas that inherited a last overall team, and drafted Matthews #1OA and then restored the Leafs to a playoff team, after a record setting regular season, but lost in round #1 after his 3 years of service, with then Lou Lam a proven Cup winner, and he then went on to deliver 4 straight (including some embarrassing performance CBJ and MON) round #1 losses thereafter those same people would be screaming bloody murder. IMO

I'll go one further that had Lou Lam be given the opportunity to continue on and then lost to teams like CBJ and MON running his playoff record to 0-4 or 0-5 in terms of advancing beyond round #1, then there wouldn't be a single Leaf fan on the planet that wouldn't want him replaced and rightfully so, in the best interest of the Leafs team.

So logiacally trying to explain why Lou Lam record at 0-2 in round #1 losses is BAD, yeat now Kyle Dubas now at 0-4 (after inheriting a +100 point team, and young core) is GOOD, is illogical, if the measure of job performance is based on playoff round wins.

 

[cannucky]

I love how its the 4th best (regular season) team when we're describing Toronto, yet you use best team to describe Tampa (8th best in regular season).

So which is it? Either they choked against a lower seeded team, or the team thats never made it outta the 1st round lost to the 2x defending champs. You can't have your cake and eat it too

Which is it ? how about the end results are all that matter and once again the Leafs have failed to get beyond the first round . Not only can I eat the cake I have , I bet I can knock you down and take your cake as well .

 

[cannucky]

What exactly would firing Dubas accomplish anyway? We'd get a "better" GM? You sure about that? How do you know?

And what constitutes a "better" GM? A guy who gets playoff caliber players? What's a playoff caliber player? Good, tough defensive guys who show up in the playoffs? So guys like Giordano? Oh, wait, that's exactly what Dubas did...

Oh, you meant get a great goalie? Oh, sure, that's REAL easy. Leafs have only been searching for one for years and finally got one that didn't instantly choke. Campbell was actually good enough to get the job done.

So for all intents and purposes, Dubas did his job. EVERYONE did their jobs. The only people who DIDN'T do their jobs was the players shooting mindlessly at Vasilevskiy with all these low danger shots. And even then, the Leafs TECHNICALLY scored two goals and played to a tie, but ended up losing a goal on a technicality.

So I don't know what you guys are expecting to happen here. This is finger pointing and that's all that's to it. Once everyone has had a chance to take a breath and get some oxygen to their brains, you'll all realize how pointless all of this is. The fact of the matter is that was the best Leafs team EVER. They lost not because they choked or because the goalie crapped the bed or because blah blah blah...they lost because one of their goals didn't count. That's it.

If anything, the people who were able to put together that team have the best chance of putting together a similar team than ANY OTHER COMBINATION OF PERSONAL. The reality is changing all the key players now, from a team operating at its height, is FAR more likely to result in a lesser performance than a team remaining fully intact and using its resources to find that one piece they're missing.

A better GM is someone that can assemble a cohesive team , 20 guys playing for the crest on the front not the name on the back with the talent required to win it all . Someone who means personal accountability when he says it not some twat who shows zero personal accountability for their own failures . This team has none of those things , this GM short circuited the patient structured rebuild in a premature shot for glory that failed , he then built on that failure by failing to secure ELC players to reasonable first deals causing a salary structure that cannot succeed . The successful teams have at least 12-16 upper mid tier players to support the 3 or 4 top tier guys not 4 top tier , 4 upper mid and 12-13 league minimum guys . This team has neither the heart nor the grit to succeed in the playoffs and that is it is all about , 6 years of excuses is not accountability . The reality is the front office should be flushed starting with Shanny and extending down to Keefe . The fact that there is a half dozen NHL proven coaches that know how to build and mold a team available this year and the Leafs are not even interested in talking to any of them shows the systemic problem this organization has .

 

[Mess]

I think it's pretty safe to say the overwhelming majority of people posting here have been following the Leafs for more than 4 years, and there is a recorded history of what Lou did that anybody can look back on anyway.

You are 100% correct, Here is what people can do with their own research about Lou Lam and see that he has been named Exec of the year in both 2020 and 2021. [** Since leaving the Leafs ** ]

Lou Lamoriello of the New York Islanders was named the winner of the Jim Gregory General Manager of the Year Award for the second straight season on Tuesday.

Presented annually to the general manager who best excelled at his role during the regular season, the award is voted on by NHL GMs and a panel of NHL executives.

Lamoriello is the first person to win it twice; he also won last season when New York reached the third round for the first time since 1993.

In 34 seasons as a GM with the Islanders, Toronto Maple Leafs and Devils, Lamoriello has won the Stanley Cup three times (1995, 2000, 2003), and his teams have reached the playoffs 26 times. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Builders category in 2009. He won the Lester Patrick Award for contributions to hockey in the United States in 1992. He was GM for the United States team that won the 1996 World Cup of Hockey and at the 1998 Nagano Olympics, the first that featured NHL players. He was inducted into the U.S. Hockey Hall of Fame in 2012.

Lamoriello named General Manager of Year again with Islanders | NHL.com

Wins award for second straight season after return to third round of playoffs

www.nhl.com

Is the research you're referring to?

Since leaving the Leafs in 2018, he has won 8 playoff rounds including 2 X final 4 appearances, before bowing out to eventual Stanley Cup winning Tampa Bay Lightning in round #3, after inheriting a non playoff team that just lost in franchise and #1C John Tavares to Toronto.

Meanwhile back here in Toronto Kyle Dubas his replacement has won Zero playoff rounds and the combo of Dubas as GM an Sheldon Keefe as Coach and won a mere 8 playoff games this past 3 years.

 

[Beaumaris]

Well,the numbers don’t lie, 61.6 % don’t have a clue.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Well,the numbers don’t lie, 61.6 % don’t have a clue.

Oh? How many would you give him? Or is it just a free pass?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You are 100% correct, Here is what people can do with their own research about Lou Lam and see that he has been named Exec of the year in both 2020 and 2021.

We were discussing Lou's history with the Leafs, so not sure how you got here, but yes there is a lot of recorded history showing the GM award to be a joke as well.

In 34 seasons as a GM with the Islanders, Toronto Maple Leafs and Devils, Lamoriello has won the Stanley Cup three times (1995, 2000, 2003), and his teams have reached the playoffs 26 times. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Builders category in 2009. He won the Lester Patrick Award for contributions to hockey in the United States in 1992. He was GM for the United States team that won the 1996 World Cup of Hockey and at the 1998 Nagano Olympics, the first that featured NHL players.

We're talking about his abilities within an entirely different league and cap era. Take a look at all of the dates you mentioned, because it really says it all.

 

[Gary Nylund]

A better GM is someone that can assemble a cohesive team , 20 guys playing for the crest on the front not the name on the back with the talent required to win it all . Someone who means personal accountability when he says it not some twat who shows zero personal accountability for their own failures . This team has none of those things , this GM short circuited the patient structured rebuild in a premature shot for glory that failed , he then built on that failure by failing to secure ELC players to reasonable first deals causing a salary structure that cannot succeed . The successful teams have at least 12-16 upper mid tier players to support the 3 or 4 top tier guys not 4 top tier , 4 upper mid and 12-13 league minimum guys . This team has neither the heart nor the grit to succeed in the playoffs and that is what the what it is all about , 6 years of excuses is not accountability . The reality is the front office should be flushed starting with Shanny and extending down to Keefe . The fact that there is a half dozen NHL proven coaches that know how to build and mold a team available this year and the Leafs are not even interested in talking to any of them shows the systemic problem this organization has .

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

 

[cannucky]

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

I forgot to add renewing players at a rate that excedes the growth of the cap to my little rant there ..........

 

[TGB]

A better GM is someone that can assemble a cohesive team

Heh. Watching you guys scream and shout like you have any idea any of you know what you're talking about is like watching ants scramble after knocking down their ant hills.

Dubas did exactly that. The reality is you don't build a team that can win it all, you build a team that has a CHANCE to win it all. Quit acting like all you have to do is follow some magical formula and you'll win no prob. There is no magical formula. Even a bump to the wrong player in the wrong place at the wrong time can end a playoff run. And you'll never know when some young nobody will discover some font of energy that makes all the different.

So stop it. Just stop. YOU DON'T KNOW. You don't know ANYTHING.

What we DO know is PROBABILITY, and probability dictates this team as it is now has a better chance of making the right tweaks to win than tearing it all down and starting over. Like going back to square one NOW is the best way to win it all. You know what we call that in trading? Panic sellers. They're the people that always go broke.