How can the culture be changed with Dubas still in charge?

[Racer88]

He is a faker. Guy's been lying and spewing BS since 2019. Look at this quotes from 2019; he same the same BS. Freakin' moron. This is the TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS its not a beer league team to learn on the job and experimenting with bullshit

He can say that with impunity because he knows his big buddy Shanny has his back……..for whatever reason I don’t know

 

[Lightsol]

To the 'blow it up' crowd, there is no path to even being where we are today without another decade of watching leafs headlined by the Bozaks and Gardiners of the world. I for one, am not ready for that. The plan all along was to ride this core until Matthews needs a new contract. I can live with that. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if Dubas was fired today, any new GM would do exactly that as well.

That's my general thought as well. Seems like there are a lot of people who are nostalgic for the JFJ-Burke-Nonis years of "Don't worry, we'll make the playoffs... NEXT YEAR!"...

And something else a lot of people seem to miss; the Leafs took Mitch Marner 4th overall. That was their highest pick since 1985. Do you guys REALLY, REALLY think if the Leafs decide to dump the core and start over, they're going to see another one within the next two decades? As opposed to another 30 years of picks in the 7-15 range hoping to hit on the diamond in the rough? Because the board isn't going to go for another scorched earth rebuild if the decision is made that this one failed. They're going to go back to the mindset that lead to the JFJ-Burke-Nonis era...

 

[Twine Tickler]

Thats the thing...he is smart and has done some good things like you mentioned, however his blindspot is the core 4. Overpaying them didnt help but sticking to his guns with these 4 come hell or highwater is shortsighted and will probably cost him his career. Its a shame because I think if he could just step back and not be so attached he could do good things.

His unwavering support for our superstar players in their early 20's is really not all that shortsighted. We all expected playoff growth from these core players. They have not shown any. I have a very very hard time believing Lou, or any other GM would have done anything differently with the core 4 in the last 3 seasons, aside from negotiating better deals potentially. That said, I truly do believe that about 50% of GM's would make a core change at this current moment if they were in KD's shoes. Dubas' unwavering vote of confidence is being put to the fire right now. "for better or worse" this is the core he believes in. I have no problem with that TBH.

Their values in the trade market will be no different next year vs. this year. We will lose a trade that involves any one of the core 4 today, and in a year from now it will be no different. He overpaid Matthews by maybe a million, JT by about 3 million, and Marner by about 1.5 million...I'd say that is a relatively fair assumption. so in total he has over spent 5-6million on the roster. That is the literally the difference between keeping Kapanen and Johnnson. Which as we've seen before did us f*** all for 4 of the of the previous 5 playoff runs.

We have not lost a single series because the overspending on those 3 players. We lost every series because we get little to no contribution from those 3 players when it counts. Are they capable of changing that narrative? Ya 100%...people need to remember that these guys are still world class players. If they don't get it done here, there will be a time where we see them step up for another team. I really don't think Dubas doubling down with this core is the bad decision. He is literally presenting himself for execution and he knows that.

He knows that this core group is the best chance this team has to win next year. Which is pretty well all he is guaranteed at this point. He will go down with the ship, which he is seemingly content with.

All that said, Kyle has done enough in his time as the Leafs GM to be highly employable for a long time in the NHL. As a fan of Kyle, I really hope these players step up for him, because I do think he is the best GM we have had in decades, and it is not even remotely close

 

[Captain Crunch]

No, they weren't, and a core does not win alone anyway.

Right, and it’s hard to build a competent supporting cast when you have to nickel and dime it because the “core” had to get theirs, and to hell with the rest of the team.

 

[Captain Crunch]

The Leafs need a culture change desperately. How can the culture be improved with Dubas still here? Or do we just have to wait his tenure out?

The bloated contracts, the buddy-buddy relationships, allowing Marner's camp to call the shots, not switching the PP up, keeping Thornton on PP1, not breaking Marner-Matthews up during the playoffs (put Marner on the 3rd line like Pittsburgh did with Kessel), etc. etc.

The culture is so rotten here. The blue and white disease is so bad.

So tell me, how can this culture be changed to a winning culture while Dubas is still here? It might very well be too late.

My simple answer is that it won’t change as long as Dubas is here.

 

[ShaneFalco]

He knows that this core group is the best chance this team has to win next year. Which is pretty well all he is guaranteed at this point. He will go down with the ship, which he is seemingly content with.

You don't see a problem with that?

 

[All Mod Cons]

You talk as if the Toronto Maple Leafs are some franchise who doesn't even know what losing is like the San Antonio Spurs. We're shit and haven't won a playoff series for 17 years.

The team Dubas has built literally had it's best season in forever. They were good defensively, they were good offensively. They played well in front of their goalie.

It's not his fault if they choked. He's willing to bet his job that soon they will break through. He knows he's a goner if that doesn't happen. I don't see anything wrong in backing the group. I would want to trade Marner simply out of rage because he's f***ing sucked but what do you actually even get in return that will make the team better not only in the short term but also long term? I doubt very much.

At some point, the players need to look in the mirror and play to their capabilities and he's betting it will happen this season.

Like or hate Dubas, if you were a player on the Leafs right now, you would want to run through a wall for him (if you give a single shit about winning).

What Dubas is doing right now is exactly what you would want from a leader.

Can you think of any reason why this would be. Was there anything this year in the regular season that seemed different.

Also, it's never Kyle's fault. We get it.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

the culture can be changed either by making smart additions or smart subtractions. Maybe instead of washed up vets like Thornton or Simmonds or Foligno, he should be targeting winners. Or if you have an alternate captain who can't contribute in the playoffs beyond taking delay of game penalties and says he won't change his preparation, get rid of him

 

[Budz]

Dubas said it himself - his choice and his job on the line. There is no rope left.

 

[barilko05]

It won’t be because Dubas doesn’t have the guts to make the needed moves required to shake up a team with serious character issues, right down to its core.

I’m actually rooting for another bad leafs season - one more and maybe they’ll start trying to clean this mess up. The leafs are an example of how not to run a franchise.

And just how is a bad season going to "clean this mess up" as you put it. If we bottom out next year, and then trade any or all of the big four...and I'm assuming that's who you're blaming this on...where will we be? Back to the Kessel era. One main guy (Tavares I assume because of his NTC) trying to carry the load by himself with no support because he's playing with a bunch of league minimum castoffs, middle of the road Bozak types, and some 1st and 2nd year players, none of whom are probably ready. So then it's another 2 or 3 years or more of bottom feeding, hoping for a pie in the sky miracle. Maybe we could get lucky and pick #1 in a draft containing a franchise level player. Gosh, wouldn't that be great? Oh wait...that already happened, and a bunch of negative jag-offs with no patience drove him out of town. So now we have to wait for another year or two to surround that player with a supporting cast to elevate them and the team to success. Okay, we're up to 6 or 7 years down the road from now, maybe more. But wait, you say. We're MLSE. We've got TONS of cash. We'll just throw it at McDavid, or some other FA. They probably can't wait to come play here with all the great players we have. Oh darn...sorry Conner. We traded them away for some magic beans, and now we're a sad sack of crap mess. What? Okay then. Good luck in New York...or LA...or whatever.

Hang on, you whine. I meant get rid of MANAGEMENT. Cause fresh ideas from the top will fix everything. And how do think they're going to do that? Please see previous comments about trading away our top assets. Rinse and repeat.

Look, I want a winner as much as anybody. But getting your panties in bunch and yelling "FIRE EVERYBODY....SELL SELL SELL" isn't going fix anything. This team is still young and still needs time to sort it out. I hate to keep saying "wait til next year" because next year has been 50+ years for me. But I'm afraid we're going to have to ride it out with our core at least until Matthews contract is up. At that point, if he doesn't look like he's resigning, then it indeed may to time to throw in the towel and re-tool or rebuild. And who knows...maybe my patience will have run out by then too, and I'll find something else to do during the winter that won't damage my self esteem as much as cheering for this team does.

Still, if you want to bail now, feel free. I'm sure your "constructive" comments (and that's sarcasm, BTW) will be sorely missed on this board. Hey! I got an idea. Why don't you pack up yer negativity in your old kit bag and head on over the Isles board...or whatever other "The Leafs are our mortal enemy now" franchise TWS has latched onto to lately. You and he will have great fun egging on supporters of a team you actually don't give a rat's ass about.

 

[Gallagbi]

Fans that fall in line, worship the leader, ask no questions and are all rah, rah, rah are very dangerous. A cult leaders needs followers.

Id argue the overly critical and impatient fans have hurt us far more than the content ones.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Dubas said it himself - his choice and his job on the line. There is no rope left.

He should already have been out of rope. Yet somehow we wasted this last year. We're going to waste next year. And I have no doubt he'll get another year.

He won't trade Matthews before his NMC kicks in and then good luck being a Leafs fan when he walks in the same manner Tavares did.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Better, smarter fans who don't overreact at every turn will change the culture.

So you’re saying you are satisfied with Dubas so far, even though “his core” didn’t start on time in games 5 and 6, making it 2 consecutive years we’ve gone out in the 1st round to a team below us in the standings?

 

[hullsy47]

Dubas said it himself - his choice and his job on the line. There is no rope left.

I say by American Thanksgiving

 

[All Mod Cons]

Id argue the overly critical and impatient fans have hurt us far more than the content ones.

Of course you would. Overly critical and impatient fans would've had this team see the 2nd round at least once. I'd bet my career on it.

 

[ToneDog]

Id argue the overly critical and impatient fans have hurt us far more than the content ones.

Impatient fans again ?? This team has not won a playoff round since 2003 and a Cup since 1967. What do you expect ??

 

[All Mod Cons]

Impatient fans again ?? This team has not won a playoff round since 2003 and a Cup since 1967. What do you expect ??

You're so impatient. How many rounds do you want them to win in nearly 20 years? Jesus, it's not like we're literally any other fanbase in the NHL that have seen the 2nd round.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Exactly. The whining is out of here.

I can’t wait till Dubas is shown the door, and all the Dubas fanboys start their whining.

 

[kb]

Fans that fall in line, worship the leader, ask no questions and are all rah, rah, rah are very dangerous. A cult leaders needs followers.

So you are saying that this about the anti-Dubas faction?

 

[Stephen]

Id argue the overly critical and impatient fans have hurt us far more than the content ones.

If a management group is interacting with the fanbase to the extent that you are supposing - presumably on the Internet, I would suggest they have bigger problems than just negativity. There’s no way organizational policy can be linked to fanbase chatter.

 

[ToneDog]

If a management group is interacting with the fanbase to the extent that you are supposing - presumably on the Internet, I would suggest they have bigger problems than just negativity. There’s no way organizational policy can be linked to fanbase chatter.

I am told Leaf Dubas added grit because the fanbase demanded grit. Unfortunately it was the wrong grit, but let's give it another go by starting with Simmonds. Sigh.

 

[Twine Tickler]

You don't see a problem with that?

Who was the hot name thrown around for the last 2 off-season's to be traded? Answer: Willy

Who was our best player in the playoffs in 2021? Answer: Willy

Who is the current hot name to be thrown around for a trade in the core 4? Answer: Mitch

Will Mitch Marner's value in a trade diminish in 1 years time? Answer: Likely not much, if anything might improve

So when you aske me if I see a problem with holding the core group that gives us the best chance to win next year....no I don't see a problem with that.

Because they can progress, just like perennial no show Willy did this year. Imagine if even 1 of either Mitch or Auston breaks out next post season?? Just 1...

I fully agree there will come a time when we will need to blow up the core, and I understand if some people think that's now. I completely understand. There is a very viable argument to be made for that and it is not the definitive right/wrong choice. But neither is doubling down next year. We are at a complete crossroads right now, we can go either way and make a case for it. For me, I have waited 30 years for a talented core like this. Yes they have been extremely painful to cheer for, but so were every other Leaf team in my life except for the late 90's and early 2000's.

For me, like it or not we ride this ship till the last year of Matthews current deal which is 2 more seasons. If there is no sizeable improvement (conference finals minimum) then you blow the entire core up for picks and rebuild from scratch. None of this retool shit, strip down, start over.

It could be a massively painful couple years, but that's just par for the course for Leaf fans.

 

[Trapper]

I am told Leaf Dubas added grit because the fanbase demanded grit. Unfortunately it was the wrong grit, but let's give it another go by starting with Simmonds. Sigh.

They’ve got the grit now.
I think it’s only leadership missing. Give a guy like Thornton a go and see what happens.

 

[Stephen]

I am told Leaf Dubas added grit because the fanbase demanded grit. Unfortunately it was the wrong grit, but let's give it another go by starting with Simmonds. Sigh.

I always like a fast food analogy. The fanbase can ask for onion rings but it’s up to the cook to make it properly.

 

[Marmoset]

To the 'blow it up' crowd, there is no path to even being where we are today without another decade of watching leafs headlined by the Bozaks and Gardiners of the world. I for one, am not ready for that. The plan all along was to ride this core until Matthews needs a new contract. I can live with that. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if Dubas was fired today, any new GM would do exactly that as well.

It's definitely premature to blow it up. However, I don't think this core has to be set in stone either. As one example, you could explore a star-for-star trade where someone like Marner goes out for another high-level player or players.

My fear is that this organization may now be in a spot where it cannot compete for a Stanley Cup. I would switch out one or two members of the core before I would blow it up, but it's possible this group simply cannot get it done. The cap crunch and depth issues are going to be a challenge. If we go another season with similar results, I think you have to start thinking about radical actions that may include a rebuild or very big trades. I don't want to go back to the days of Bozak being our top scorer, but I also don't want to remain on the treadmill indefinitely either.

The Leafs seem to be reaching a similar tipping point that the Raptors got to before the Kawhi trade - except the Raptors had several seasons of winning playoff series by that time. The Leafs haven't even managed that. Different sports, sure, but it's worth noting that a much more successful Raptors team was still deemed not good enough and underwent major change.