How are you feeling about Tavares these days?

[-DeMo-]

That doesn't make any sense.

If there was a master plan to sign Tavares and then move Kadri for defensive help, that trade should have been made shortly after the acquistion of John Tavares.

In the summer of '18, Nazem Kadri was coming off back-to-back 32-goal seasons on a value contract as a top six centre. He had considerable value and would have had many suitors.

But the Leafs didn't trade him that summer, or any time over the following season. In fact, instead they pushed him down to the third line, trimmed back his powerplay time and watched his goal total get cut in half.

They traded him away that summer in lop-sided transaction at a considerable loss. In his first post-season in Colorado, Kadri has 18 points in 15 playoff games.

there would have been alot of suitors willing to move a top pairing Dmen in summer of 2018? there would have been alot of teams interested in Kadri for sure in regards to a trade where we received picks/prospect in return but not a bonafide top pairing Dmen. they would have had to be patient to wait for someone to become available. but once we signed Tavares we should have been in a prime position to make a Ryjo/Jones type swap with one of our guys. this deal happened the summer after Tavares that is basically right after.

also they traded him for Barrie who was a top pairing Dmen at the time in Colorado. he instantly became a low end top 4 to bottom pairing guy once he got to Toronto. in the three years prior Barrie had put up the 9th most points across that period while averaging 22+ minutes. the Leafs thought they were getting a top pairing guy. Barrie proceeded to regress hard after the move in a contract year it's hard to believe or foresee that happening but it did. and that was Dubas worst move because of the value lost.

I also don't believe the original plan was to move Kadri but any of the three Kadri/Marner/Nylander could have been moved, just Kadri made that decision for them. he also hamstrung them a bit with his actions earlier in the season, just because the trade ended badly for us doesn't mean the plan wasn't there.

 

[IPS]

Yes, he's done so well with Colorado this year. Great extension they game him.

One fluke year out of 15 is dependable now?

Cause of cap reasons?

The Avs fans loved him, his teammates loved him, and he won the cup. The only people still bitter about him are your types. His heart was in Toronto and he wanted to stay, and a lot of us wanted him to stay too. Turns out he was a great playoff performer afterall, proved a lot wrong.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'm assuming the bolded is sarcastic lol

Realistically, given the market at the time, those three should've come in at $6.5m, $9m, and $10.5m respectively (each on deals with at least 6 and ideally 8 year term).

Anyone saying "we should never have signed Tavares" is buying into revisionist history. You won't find me one person who disliked the deal at the time. That said, I just really hope he can get his mojo and play like a $7-8m player for the rest of this year and next - at his current rate, he's looking like a $3-4m player, and that will really inhibit our ability to be competitive, especially next year.

I was against the deal from the moment it was first suggested, and there were others.

Admittedly more people have figured it out since then.

 

[IPS]

Kadri with the Avs: 34 points in 33 games with the Avs, won cup.

Tavares in that time: 9 points in 13 games, all 1st round losses.

The Tavares "upgrade" turned out to be regular season only it looks like. Turns out the Avs ended up with the better playoff player and equaled more success because of it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Cause of cap reasons?

They had a bunch of money and decided to re-sign pretty much everybody except him, even though it left them weak at center.

The Avs fans loved him

They loved him during his one fluke season.
They hated him and wanted him gone the rest of the time.

 

[FerrisRox]

there would have been alot of suitors willing to move a top pairing Dmen in summer of 2018?

Both Noah Hanafin and Dougie Hamilton were traded in the summer of 2018.

They traded him for Barrie who was a top pairing Dmen at the time in Colorado. he instantly became a low end top 4 to bottom pairing guy once he got to Toronto. in the three years prior Barrie had put up the 9th most points across that period while averaging 22+ minutes.

This is pretty funny, and maybe you are being genuine here, but lets get serious.

Tyson Barrie was a "top pairing defender" on the 2018-19 Colorado Avalanche by default. Cale Makar didn't arrive until the post season. Erik Johnson led that team in ice time. Barrie logged 17 minutes plus another four minutes of powerplay time.

The rest of their D was a 20 year old Sam Girard, then you have Ian Cole, Patrick Nemeth and Ryan Graves.

So sure, Barrie was a "top pairing Dman at the time in Colorado" but thats like saying you're the valedictorian of summer school. Alex Vlasic is a "top pairing D-Man" for the Blackhawks right now, what kind of offer should the Leafs make?

It's also absrud to pretend that Barrie "became something else" when he got here. Everybody knew (except Dubas and his disciples) the day the Leafs acquired him he was horrible defensively and wouldn't help the team. It was no mystery. Look at the Avalanche defenders I listed... they were still happy to move him out.

 

[Fogelhund]

Kadri with the Avs: 34 points in 33 games with the Avs, won cup.

Tavares in that time: 9 points in 13 games, all 1st round losses.

The Tavares "upgrade" turned out to be regular season only it looks like. Turns out the Avs ended up with the better playoff player and equaled more success because of it.

It's funny... I'm not bitter at, or about Kadri at all... I'm not the one who regularly has to bring him up in my grievances. Plenty of fans seem bitter though, regularly bring him up. They seem to completely lack any understanding of why he was removed from the team, why management of any company/team get rid of problem employees and don't seem to understand that teams get rid of internal discipline issues.

We hardly can ever get through Tavares discussions, without one of the bitter people bringing up Kadri... it's a regular occurance. Some people just can't let go of the past.

For what it's worth, I loved Kadri on the Leafs, and as a player.. one of my favourite home grown players... but it amazes me that people somehow completely ignore his issues here, and there were many. I mean, anybody with a brain should have known he was done here, after that last playoff incident, given his repeated history. The second it happened.. I knew.

It seems nobody here has ever employed people, or had kids... whom you've said, one more problem and this is the consequence... well, there was a consequence for that one more problem... as expected.

Of course, the only reason that Avs won the cup, is Kadri right? Single handedly... I mean, you can't make this stuff up.

Of course, if you report skewed numbers, you come to skewed results.

Tavares 44 points in 54 games.
Kadri 44 points in 52 games.

So, basically the same production in the playoffs, except Tavares hasn't been suspended and let his team down three seasons in the playoffs....

Now, that isn't to make a comparison, but the simple point is he wore out his welcome here, and wasn't wanted. Any success, or lack of after, is completely irrelevant, when you are an internal issue with a team. He was a management headache for years...

 

[All Mod Cons]

119 games remaining to drag your bleeding eyes through.

 

[thewave]

He has been an almost emotionless leader that does not fire his team up. Not captain material.

 

[Fogelhund]

He has been an almost emotionless leader that does not fire his team up. Not captain material.

I thought Mo would have been the better choice at the time, and I'm not sure I've changed my mind since.

 

[seanlinden]

I'm assuming the bolded is sarcastic lol

Realistically, given the market at the time, those three should've come in at $6.5m, $9m, and $10.5m respectively (each on deals with at least 6 and ideally 8 year term).

Anyone saying "we should never have signed Tavares" is buying into revisionist history. You won't find me one person who disliked the deal at the time. That said, I just really hope he can get his mojo and play like a $7-8m player for the rest of this year and next - at his current rate, he's looking like a $3-4m player, and that will really inhibit our ability to be competitive, especially next year.

Depends on when you're signing them.... back then... players had to wait for their 3rd contract to strike it big.

Nylander after 100 games could have been made the highest paid player on the team at $5m long term had Lou been willing to "bet on him".

Marner, after putting up 61 and 69 point seasons with about 20 goals in each, wanted Draisaitl's deal - $8.5 x 8. Considering Draisaitl had size, close to 30 goals, and 77 points, seems like you probably could have convinced him to sign $8 x 8... maybe even lower if Nylander had just signed $5m x 8, or $5.5m x8.... but that deal should have been negotiated prior to signing JT; and simply formalized on July 1 when it was legal to do so.

Similar for Matthews... Nylander and Marner being locked in long term should have been reason for him to buy into the same concept.

 

[WillyC]

Would it be time to move on from Kadri if his 3rd playoff suspension in a row had of all happened in Toronto?

Management had to move on from him… it’s a shame because Kadri was likely going to spend his whole career here in Toronto.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

I'm assuming the bolded is sarcastic lol

Realistically, given the market at the time, those three should've come in at $6.5m, $9m, and $10.5m respectively (each on deals with at least 6 and ideally 8 year term).

Anyone saying "we should never have signed Tavares" is buying into revisionist history. You won't find me one person who disliked the deal at the time. That said, I just really hope he can get his mojo and play like a $7-8m player for the rest of this year and next - at his current rate, he's looking like a $3-4m player, and that will really inhibit our ability to be competitive, especially next year.

Willi's time would be one year before Mitch 2 years before Austin. Lock them up in their second contract. It's not like we had no Idea about the players we drafted. Instead management locked up Austin first, causing Willy to hold out. They now were afraid Mitch would hold out then ended up over paying all three. Why? Because they signed JT before taking care of their own house. For those of us that watch all the games all the time.(every NHL team, including the Islanders) We knew the JT signing was a bad one. I am more than a Leaf fan. I am an NHL fan!

 

[Clyde Brewer]

The Tavares signing has been a disappointment and set the team building back, instead of jump starting it. They simply got too good, too fast. I really liked that 2017-2018 team, they were fun to watch.

I'll reserve further judgement until the details of his next contact are available. If he gives us a super sweet hometown discount, I'll be grateful.

 

[hotpaws]

Depends on when you're signing them.... back then... players had to wait for their 3rd contract to strike it big.

Nylander after 100 games could have been made the highest paid player on the team at $5m long term had Lou been willing to "bet on him".

Marner, after putting up 61 and 69 point seasons with about 20 goals in each, wanted Draisaitl's deal - $8.5 x 8. Considering Draisaitl had size, close to 30 goals, and 77 points, seems like you probably could have convinced him to sign $8 x 8... maybe even lower if Nylander had just signed $5m x 8, or $5.5m x8.... but that deal should have been negotiated prior to signing JT; and simply formalized on July 1 when it was legal to do so.

Similar for Matthews... Nylander and Marner being locked in long term should have been reason for him to buy into the same concept.

how did you come up with Willie at 5m x 8yrs? The comps including Ehlers who signed a yr earlier at 6m x 7yrs had him at low to mid 6's depending on a term around 6 yrs

as far as Marner goes , the rumor was he wanted 8.5m x 8yrs but according to his agent Dubas was low balling him

Dubies plan after signing JT was to try to force the kids to sign undermarket deals to compensate for overpaying Johnny and that's when he started his ''we vs me'' months long media campaign .

and top end players didn't have to wait until there 3rd deal to cash in but they were giving max term , McDavid and Eichel were the perfect comps for AM , they signed for 12.5 and 10 respectively over 8yrs , Dubas giving AM 8yr money at 5 yrs shifted the marketplace

 

[hotpaws]

The Tavares signing has been a disappointment and set the team building back, instead of jump starting it. They simply got too good, too fast. I really liked that 2017-2018 team, they were fun to watch.

I'll reserve further judgement until the details of his next contact are available. If he gives us a super sweet hometown discount, I'll be grateful.

the team was already very good and on the upswing when they signed JT , he did nothing but ruin our cap structure and kill our window

and can we stop acting like this guy is Crosby and believing he's earned some big money extension , the f***er can barely get around the ice and is totally dependent on his wingers to generate offense for him

 

[Twowingcantfly]

The Tavares signing has been a disappointment and set the team building back, instead of jump starting it. They simply got too good, too fast. I really liked that 2017-2018 team, they were fun to watch.

I'll reserve further judgement until the details of his next contact are available. If he gives us a super sweet hometown discount, I'll be grateful.

Sundin was a much better player and got treated like crap by our media and Management. I doubt any contract for JT would be viable. Addition by Subtraction.

 

[Confucius]

Kadri with the Avs: 34 points in 33 games with the Avs, won cup.

Tavares in that time: 9 points in 13 games, all 1st round losses.

The Tavares "upgrade" turned out to be regular season only it looks like. Turns out the Avs ended up with the better playoff player and equaled more success because of it.

How do we know if the players switched teams their points totals would not also switch?

 

[TMLAM34]

Unfortunately Tavares has really slowed down offensively. I will give him credit though for going into the dirty areas, to the front of the net, and finishing his checks. Looks like he’s becoming more and more like an extremely overpaid third line grinder we’ll have to deal with for another season at that cap hit.

 

[All Mod Cons]

the team was already very good and on the upswing when they signed JT , he did nothing but ruin our cap structure and kill our window

and can we stop acting like this guy is Crosby and believing he's earned some big money extension , the f***er can barley get around the ice and is totally dependent on his wingers to generate offense for him

A mere six years later and:

Hyman Matthews Marner
JVR Kadri Nylander
Komarov Bozak Kapanen
Martin Boyle Brown

Rielly Zaitsev
Gardiner Carrick
Marincin Polak/Hunwick

Andersen

Has turned into:

Knies Matthews Marner
Bertuzzi Tavares Nylander
Roberson Domi Jarnkrok
McMann/Holmberg Kampf Gregor

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Liljegren
Benoit Timmins/Giordano

Samsonov
Woll

That seems like a lot of work, for not that much progress.

*I tried to keep as many lines together for ease. Obvy the Matthews line wasn't the first line way back when, nor did he ply with Marner.

 

[Notsince67]

JT is not in his prime.Next year will be painful watching him being paid $11

Kadri and Bozak are Stanley Cup winning centres, JT was a mistake signing. You don't pay your 2nd line centre $11 million and expect Matthews,Marner and Nylander to not get paid.It ruined the whole salary cap structure of the Leafs with no #1 goalie and no #1 RH defenceman and no multiple Stanley Cups. At least teams like Chicago and Tampa won multiple cups before worrying about how much their stars took up of the salary cap.

I meant Marner.

 

[arso40]

I'm assuming the bolded is sarcastic lol

Realistically, given the market at the time, those three should've come in at $6.5m, $9m, and $10.5m respectively (each on deals with at least 6 and ideally 8 year term).

Anyone saying "we should never have signed Tavares" is buying into revisionist history. You won't find me one person who disliked the deal at the time. That said, I just really hope he can get his mojo and play like a $7-8m player for the rest of this year and next - at his current rate, he's looking like a $3-4m player, and that will really inhibit our ability to be competitive, especially next year.

I think marner was looking for 7-8 not sure which nylander would have been under 6 Matthews 9 ish and most of us analysts included thought it wasn’t smart to get something that wasn’t necessarily needed instead of the d

 

[thewave]

A mere six years later and:

Hyman Matthews Marner
JVR Kadri Nylander
Komarov Bozak Kapanen
Martin Boyle Brown

Rielly Zaitsev
Gardiner Carrick
Marincin Polak/Hunwick

Andersen

Has turned into:

Knies Matthews Marner
Bertuzzi Tavares Nylander
Roberson Domi Jarnkrok
McMann/Holmberg Kampf Gregor

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Liljegren
Benoit Timmins/Giordano

Samsonov
Woll

That seems like a lot of work, for not that much progress.

*I tried to keep as many lines together for ease. Obvy the Matthews line wasn't the first line way back when, nor did he ply with Marner.

There was no progress. Nothing.

 

[FerrisRox]

For that you get Marleau for $19M, instead of Tavares for $77M.

The Blackhawks wanted to insulate their first overall pick with a veteran who knew what it was like to face the pressure of being a 1st overall pick, so they acquired Taylor Hall for a very minimal cost.

That's common sense. You don't spend $77 million, blow up your internal salary structure and handcuff your team financially for the better part of a decade to insulate a prospect. That's an idiotic suggestion.

 

[-DeMo-]

Both Noah Hanafin and Dougie Hamilton were traded in the summer of 2018.



This is pretty funny, and maybe you are being genuine here, but lets get serious.

Tyson Barrie was a "top pairing defender" on the 2018-19 Colorado Avalanche by default. Cale Makar didn't arrive until the post season. Erik Johnson led that team in ice time. Barrie logged 17 minutes plus another four minutes of powerplay time.

The rest of their D was a 20 year old Sam Girard, then you have Ian Cole, Patrick Nemeth and Ryan Graves.

So sure, Barrie was a "top pairing Dman at the time in Colorado" but thats like saying you're the valedictorian of summer school. Alex Vlasic is a "top pairing D-Man" for the Blackhawks right now, what kind of offer should the Leafs make?

It's also absrud to pretend that Barrie "became something else" when he got here. Everybody knew (except Dubas and his disciples) the day the Leafs acquired him he was horrible defensively and wouldn't help the team. It was no mystery. Look at the Avalanche defenders I listed... they were still happy to move him out.

Noah Hanifin and Dougie Hamilton were both traded for each other no less prior to us signing John Tavares, they were traded June 23rd 2018. you can't move Kadri as an example until you have Tavares signed.

I mean being 9th in points among all Dmen in the previous 3 season combined + playing 21:47 of ice time is top pairing. Tyson Barrie was in the 17 min range in EVTOI same as Cale Makar is today he just didn't kill penalties. not all top pairing Dmen do that. Erik Karlsson comes to mind heck Dougie Hamilton who you just mentioned as a top pair doesn't kill penalties.

and that's besides the point really. if the goal wasn't to move one of our top young players for a Dmen why did we originally go after Brodie first? why not move Kadri for a forward?

you can argue about Barrie's level all you want, he was clearly the wrong target and his skill level in no way shape or form wheather he was the best in the league or the worst debunks my opinion of what the plan was. and that was to use our high end capitol upfront once we signed JT for free(other then Cap) that way once we did so we wouldn't be creating a hole. this allowed us to add a Marner/Nylander/Kadri to the trade table to acquire a top quality Dmen. they messed that up big time. doesn't mean that wasn't the plan.

Edit: Heck the way that trade ended up being such a failure maybe why Dubas was more gun shy to move a Marner for a Dmen