How are you feeling about Tavares these days?

[Stephen]

That group didn't do so well and in terms of quality up the middle, there is no comparison between either Kadri or Bozak to a guy like Tavares, so I can see the thought process behind it. In retrospect we haven't done much better, but numbers wise the Tavares we signed is pretty much exactly the guy we got. Pretty consistent. We could have got seriously Huberdeau'd.

I don't think the John Tavares signing was done to solve any real roster building need but to supercharge the new era with raw star power. I have no problem with the intention - for example, the Chicago Blackhawks may want to pursue Elias Pettersson to put with Connor Bedard -but I don't think it was just based on real needs. You also have to remember that Kadri at 2C and Bozak at 3C on other teams were good enough to win the cup in 2019 and 2022.

They went down the same track with Steven Stamkos a couple of years prior in 2016. My feeling is they wanted the sizzle of a hometown superstar, prodigal son to give credence to the new era.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

... and to quote my own post and throw a little love to Cap'n JT, who is in a rut but will come around.... a snippet....

"Tavares scored in OT to give the Maple Leafs a 2-1 victory in Game 6 and a 4-2 series win in the best-of-7 Eastern Conference First Round, Toronto's first playoff series win in 19 years."

Dude scored in 2 games in an 11 game run. His series winner was a spinning shot that was going wide and ricocheted in off a skate. I give him props when it’s deserved but last playoffs was not that situation.

 

[GoonieFace]

Dude scored in 2 games in an 11 game run. His series winner was a spinning shot that was going wide and ricocheted in off a skate. I give him props when it’s deserved but last playoffs was not that situation.

He also almost turned the puck over at the blue line just before that as well, but accidents happen

 

[rutz]

You don't let the 7th highest scorer in the last 5 years walk in his prime lol.
You millionwant to retool, you trade Willy before his NTC kicks in but that is pretty dumb too.
JT isn't going anywhere BTW

JT is not in his prime.Next year will be painful watching him being paid $11

That group didn't do so well and in terms of quality up the middle, there is no comparison between either Kadri or Bozak to a guy like Tavares, so I can see the thought process behind it. In retrospect we haven't done much better, but numbers wise the Tavares we signed is pretty much exactly the guy we got. Pretty consistent. We could have got seriously Huberdeau'd.

Kadri and Bozak are Stanley Cup winning centres, JT was a mistake signing. You don't pay your 2nd line centre $11 million and expect Matthews,Marner and Nylander to not get paid.It ruined the whole salary cap structure of the Leafs with no #1 goalie and no #1 RH defenceman and no multiple Stanley Cups. At least teams like Chicago and Tampa won multiple cups before worrying about how much their stars took up of the salary cap.

 

[Racer88]

The only thing Tavares did was kill our rebuild for 7 years……5/are over and 2 more to go

 

[Fogelhund]

First off Kopitar and Scheifele resigned with their teams. Signing JT when we did was not necessary. We lost a number of very good players(Kadri, Zach Hyman, Kapanen etc...) after his signing, being restrained by the cap. Players that would have brought us much closer to winning the cup. This team is No better since his arrival

Kadri wasn’t moved for cap reasons, he was moved because he was an internal problem. Still would have needed another 2C.. and sure would love Hyman… but Kap? lol.

 

[arso40]

Kadri wasn’t moved for cap reasons, he was moved because he was an internal problem. Still would have needed another 2C.. and sure would love Hyman… but Kap? lol.

In fairness the only reason kadri kept getting suspended is cause he was the only one with the balls to if we had a few guys that could mix it up he wouldn’t have had to

 

[authentic]

Dude scored in 2 games in an 11 game run. His series winner was a spinning shot that was going wide and ricocheted in off a skate. I give him props when it’s deserved but last playoffs was not that situation.

The best playoffs he ever had was for the Islanders funny enough. He actually single handedly defeated Florida in the 1st round and he’s never come close to that type of performance for Toronto.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Kadri wasn’t moved for cap reasons, he was moved because he was an internal problem. Still would have needed another 2C.. and sure would love Hyman… but Kap? lol.

I watch all the games all the time. Kapanen is a keeper. He kills penalties scores in the clutch. Will drop the gloves, blocks shots, give the occasional face wash, screen the goalie, stand up for his team mates. A quiet, and capable leader. Instead of singing powder puffs. Management should be singing more Kadries, and Kapanens..

 

[seanlinden]

JT is not in his prime.Next year will be painful watching him being paid $11

Kadri and Bozak are Stanley Cup winning centres, JT was a mistake signing. You don't pay your 2nd line centre $11 million and expect Matthews,Marner and Nylander to not get paid.It ruined the whole salary cap structure of the Leafs with no #1 goalie and no #1 RH defenceman and no multiple Stanley Cups. At least teams like Chicago and Tampa won multiple cups before worrying about how much their stars took up of the salary cap.

Not neccessarily.

What ruined "The whole salary cap" was a few factors.

1. COVID, Leafs anticipated substantial increases in teh cap each year. It stagnated shortly after they signed all these deals.

2. Not betting on your young players, but instead, waiting for them to put up big numbers.

3. Not getting their young star players to buy into the concept of having to wait until UFA for your major payday.

You look at William Nylander; who became eligible to sign an extension on July 1, 2017. At that point in time, he had a shade over 100 games played, put up a good chunk of points, but had a lot of flaws in his game. JvR was making $4.25m. Kadri had recently signed a $4.5m deal. Bozak making $4.2m.

Bet on the guy before he puts up a repeat 60 point season.... make him the highest paid player on the team at $5.5m, and lock him down for 8 years instead of the 6 they got him for. Heck, don't quite believe in him or he's hesitant to lock down 8 years? they could have likely got him for a whole lot less than $7m on a 6 year deal.

But no.... Lou didn't want to do that.He waited until he put up a repeat performance, and Dubas had to give him Pastrnak money & term while giving up fewer UFA years, and without doing what Pastrnak was doing.

There was also a missed opportunity to set an example with Nylander, and trade him for refusing to buy into the team concept.

Fast foward to this year, Treliving hos and hums all summer about whether to trade him, eventually does nothing... apparently Nylander is happy at $10.5m... but no... waits for him to be motivated in a contract year and make himself indispensable.... $11.5m cha ching. More than Pastrnak. $2m more than Aho.

Next up comes Auston Matthews; who became eligible to sign an extension on July 1, 2018. Instead of doing like McDavid did a year prior, the Leafs sit on it till February. He signs for what he should be earning relative to McDavid ($12.5m vs $11.6m); but magically leaves off 3 years on the contract. You want to argue that "the cap goes / went up", sure, maybe Matthews should have gotten $12m on an 8 year deal considering his was 1 year behind McDavid. Better yet, just align the deals -- Matthews $11.6m at 7 years... he's paid $900k less than McDavid, over the exact same term.


But, by far, the worst example of this, is Mitch Marner.....
Became eligible to sign on July 1, 2018, with Matthews. If you recall, he wanted Draisaitl's deal (8 x $8.5m), which was widely regarded as horrible at the time with him regressing to 70 points instead of further building upon his 77 point season that earned him that deal. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that you could have gotten Marner on an 8x8 deal at the time.

But no, let's not do that.... let's "wait and see" with Mitch Marner. Actually no, let's do one better. Let's get him the most perfect, complimentary-to-his-game centre that he could possibly ask for.... Did anyone in the Leafs organization not truly believe that Mitch Marner & John Tavares were match made in heaven? Did anyone in the Leafs organization not forsee that Marner would almost certianly put up 90 points in that arrangement?


Just imagine what this team could have done over the last few years with Marner at $8m instead of $11m.... with Nylander at $4.5m instead of $7m.

Heck, imagine what they could have done over the next few years with Matthews still at $11.6m, instead of $13.25m. Nylander at $5.5m or $6m instead of $11.5m.

John Tavares didn't kill the rebuild... he gave the Leafs the best 1-2-3 punch down the middle of the ice in the league, and took an immense amount of pressure and focus away from Auston Matthews. It's the lack of groundwork and "betting on your guys" that ensured 34/16/88 were always earnign the maximum amount reasonable, and never being underpaid.

 

[-DeMo-]

I don't think the John Tavares signing was done to solve any real roster building need but to supercharge the new era with raw star power. I have no problem with the intention - for example, the Chicago Blackhawks may want to pursue Elias Pettersson to put with Connor Bedard -but I don't think it was just based on real needs. You also have to remember that Kadri at 2C and Bozak at 3C on other teams were good enough to win the cup in 2019 and 2022.

They went down the same track with Steven Stamkos a couple of years prior in 2016. My feeling is they wanted the sizzle of a hometown superstar, prodigal son to give credence to the new era.

I think the idea behind signing Tavares was to then create more value on the team to be able to move a Kadri for a top pairing Dmen. the problem was they messed that up and traded him for Barrie.

without Tavares if they moved a Kadri/Marner/Nylander for a top pairing Dmen it would have created a hole in the lineup. by adding Tavares I think the plan was to trade one of those guys for a top pairing guy, Kadri of course then proceeded to act in a way that made them move him right away instead of waiting for the right deal. that deal ended up being terrible, which isn't a surprise most deals that are rushed don't end well.

 

[barilko05]

I watch all the games all the time. Kapanen is a keeper. He kills penalties scores in the clutch. Will drop the gloves, blocks shots, give the occasional face wash, screen the goalie, stand up for his team mates. A quiet, and capable leader. Instead of singing powder puff hisbpos. Management should be singing more Kadries, and Kapanens..

Wow! I..yeah. Uh...you meant to put this at the end of this post, right? Or maybe his one?

 

[notDatsyuk]

I still think everyone misses the point of the Tavares signing entirely. Yes a bit overpaid but top center free agents are. The REAL VALUE in the Tavares signing is obvious... we had a green young stud first overall center in Matthews, in a red hot Hockey market. To protect that asset like the gold Nugget it is, you do your best to insulate a bit, PROTECT your young asset in a rabid market.. What better way than grab a respected veteran center to shoulder some load while Matty has room to grow without the entire weight of the franchise on his shoulders? Kadri certainly wasn't the answer for that, as stated he had issues with leafs management and, frankly, maturity (proud of his colorado run tho well done kads).

If you look at Tavares as giving Matty some elbow room, and he ends up being one of the greatest goal scorers of all time (very possible), you can't quantify the value of that.

For that you get Marleau for $19M, instead of Tavares for $77M.

 

[notDatsyuk]

... and to quote my own post and throw a little love to Cap'n JT, who is in a rut but will come around.... a snippet....

"Tavares scored in OT to give the Maple Leafs a 2-1 victory in Game 6 and a 4-2 series win in the best-of-7 Eastern Conference First Round, Toronto's first playoff series win in 19 years."

Ah, yes - that brilliant end-to-end rush, blowing by at least 14 players before decking the goalie out of his jock and roofing it.

(Or was it a dump from a bad angle, that would have missed the net if it hadn't deflected off a defenceman's skate?)

 

[Fogelhund]

In fairness the only reason kadri kept getting suspended is cause he was the only one with the balls to if we had a few guys that could mix it up he wouldn’t have had to

In fairness, it wasn't the suspensions that I was talking about... in fairness, it was the internal suspensions, run in's with coaches, being publicly called out for a lack of maturity, for having his parents called into Shanahan's office...and so on, and so on... the suspensions were the final straw, for someone that had wore out his welcome... and they'd already replaced in the lineup by then.

 

[FerrisRox]

Kadri wasn’t moved for cap reasons, he was moved because he was an internal problem. Still would have needed another 2C.. and sure would love Hyman… but Kap? lol.

This is utter nonsense.

The Maple Leafs didn't have to trade Kadri for any reason other than stupid roster construction had made him redundant and pushed him to the third line.

There's zero reason they couldn't have kept him and logic suggests that if the General Manager had added some jam and muscle to the lineup, Kadri wouldn't have to even think about the reckless play that marred in his post-seasons.

He offered ample evidence of being an excellent post-season performer after the trade (and another suspension) and made it clear that he was able to perform at the highest possible level. It was a terrible trade and if it makes you feel better to pretend the Leafs were somehow forced to make the deal, you can certainly do that but don't expect other to go along with this.

 

[Fogelhund]

This is utter nonsense.

The Maple Leafs didn't have to trade Kadri for any reason other than stupid roster construction had made him redundant and pushed him to the third line.

There's zero reason they couldn't have kept him and logic suggests that if the General Manager had added some jam and muscle to the lineup, Kadri wouldn't have to even think about the reckless play that marred in his post-seasons.

He offered ample evidence of being an excellent post-season performer after the trade (and another suspension) and made it clear that he was able to perform at the highest possible level. It was a terrible trade and if it makes you feel better to pretend the Leafs were somehow forced to make the deal, you can certainly do that but don't expect other to go along with this.

If that's the narrative that makes you feel better, go ahead. The reality was, he was an internal problem.... ample evidence out there, if you choose not to ignore it. There was a reason he was demoted, and then moved out. Yes, he was demoted.. they brought in Tavares, because they didn't trust Kadri, and didn't want to deal with his further internal issues, and maturity problems. They weren't forced to make a move, but they chose to move out someone they didn't trust... and awesome that he's had one good season, after being unreliable otherwise, and of course he's returned to being... just good..... just not a guy you can depend on...

 

[FerrisRox]

In fairness the only reason kadri kept getting suspended is cause he was the only one with the balls to if we had a few guys that could mix it up he wouldn’t have had to

Exactly.

The answer wasn't to get rid of guys who played like Kadri, it was to get more people with a little jam and a little push-back.

 

[IPS]

He offered ample evidence of being an excellent post-season performer after the trade (and another suspension

Last time I had this debate the 'ole cult told me that Kadri was not a cup caliber #2C if we exclude the year he actually won the cup playing #2C.

and awesome that he's had one good season, after being unreliable otherwise, and of course he's returned to being... just good..... just not a guy you can depend on...

Anybody who wins a stanley cup putting up his production seems plenty dependable to me.

Luckily a smarter and superior organization in Colorado saw Kadri's issues weren't that big of a deal, and stuck with him anyway.

 

[Fogelhund]

Last time I had this debate the 'ole cult told me that Kadri was not a cup caliber #2C if we exclude the year he actually won the cup playing #2C.


Anybody who wins a stanley cup putting up his production seems plenty dependable to me.

Luckily a smarter and superior organization in Colorado saw Kadri's issues weren't that big of a deal, and stuck with him anyway.

Yes, he's done so well with Colorado this year. Great extension they game him.

One fluke year out of 15 is dependable now?

 

[FerrisRox]

I think the idea behind signing Tavares was to then create more value on the team to be able to move a Kadri for a top pairing Dmen. the problem was they messed that up and traded him for Barrie.

That doesn't make any sense.

If there was a master plan to sign Tavares and then move Kadri for defensive help, that trade should have been made shortly after the acquistion of John Tavares.

In the summer of '18, Nazem Kadri was coming off back-to-back 32-goal seasons on a value contract as a top six centre. He had considerable value and would have had many suitors.

But the Leafs didn't trade him that summer, or any time over the following season. In fact, instead they pushed him down to the third line, trimmed back his powerplay time and watched his goal total get cut in half.

They traded him away a year later in lop-sided transaction at a considerable loss. In his first post-season in Colorado, Kadri has 18 points in 15 playoff games.

 

[ACC1224]

For what ever reason anyone chooses to believe why they moved Kadri, in hindsight (most)everyone would agree that it was a mistake.

 

[Gallagbi]

The Kadri stuff is interesting. Always liked him as a player, but calling a guy who got suspended in 3 playoff series (in a row?) dependable is certainly an interesting take.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Not neccessarily.

What ruined "The whole salary cap" was a few factors.

1. COVID, Leafs anticipated substantial increases in teh cap each year. It stagnated shortly after they signed all these deals.

2. Not betting on your young players, but instead, waiting for them to put up big numbers.

3. Not getting their young star players to buy into the concept of having to wait until UFA for your major payday.

You look at William Nylander; who became eligible to sign an extension on July 1, 2017. At that point in time, he had a shade over 100 games played, put up a good chunk of points, but had a lot of flaws in his game. JvR was making $4.25m. Kadri had recently signed a $4.5m deal. Bozak making $4.2m.

Bet on the guy before he puts up a repeat 60 point season.... make him the highest paid player on the team at $5.5m, and lock him down for 8 years instead of the 6 they got him for. Heck, don't quite believe in him or he's hesitant to lock down 8 years? they could have likely got him for a whole lot less than $7m on a 6 year deal.

But no.... Lou didn't want to do that.He waited until he put up a repeat performance, and Dubas had to give him Pastrnak money & term while giving up fewer UFA years, and without doing what Pastrnak was doing.

There was also a missed opportunity to set an example with Nylander, and trade him for refusing to buy into the team concept.

Fast foward to this year, Treliving hos and hums all summer about whether to trade him, eventually does nothing... apparently Nylander is happy at $10.5m... but no... waits for him to be motivated in a contract year and make himself indispensable.... $11.5m cha ching. More than Pastrnak. $2m more than Aho.

Next up comes Auston Matthews; who became eligible to sign an extension on July 1, 2018. Instead of doing like McDavid did a year prior, the Leafs sit on it till February. He signs for what he should be earning relative to McDavid ($12.5m vs $11.6m); but magically leaves off 3 years on the contract. You want to argue that "the cap goes / went up", sure, maybe Matthews should have gotten $12m on an 8 year deal considering his was 1 year behind McDavid. Better yet, just align the deals -- Matthews $11.6m at 7 years... he's paid $900k less than McDavid, over the exact same term.


But, by far, the worst example of this, is Mitch Marner.....
Became eligible to sign on July 1, 2018, with Matthews. If you recall, he wanted Draisaitl's deal (8 x $8.5m), which was widely regarded as horrible at the time with him regressing to 70 points instead of further building upon his 77 point season that earned him that deal. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that you could have gotten Marner on an 8x8 deal at the time.

But no, let's not do that.... let's "wait and see" with Mitch Marner. Actually no, let's do one better. Let's get him the most perfect, complimentary-to-his-game centre that he could possibly ask for.... Did anyone in the Leafs organization not truly believe that Mitch Marner & John Tavares were match made in heaven? Did anyone in the Leafs organization not forsee that Marner would almost certianly put up 90 points in that arrangement?


Just imagine what this team could have done over the last few years with Marner at $8m instead of $11m.... with Nylander at $4.5m instead of $7m.

Heck, imagine what they could have done over the next few years with Matthews still at $11.6m, instead of $13.25m. Nylander at $5.5m or $6m instead of $11.5m.

John Tavares didn't kill the rebuild... he gave the Leafs the best 1-2-3 punch down the middle of the ice in the league, and took an immense amount of pressure and focus away from Auston Matthews. It's the lack of groundwork and "betting on your guys" that ensured 34/16/88 were always earnign the maximum amount reasonable, and never being underpaid.

JT signing did in fact kill the rebuild. A young William Nylander when paired with Austin Matthews, built the confidence in his game. Management needed to address Nylander's contract first. When they didn't, he sat out.
2014 Willy drafted
2015 Mitch drafted
2116 Austin drafted
Willy was a keeper. Take care of his contract first. Then Mitch, then Austin. If management do their job. We sign Willy @5mil; [email protected]; Austin @7 mil. Instead they sign someone who who had yet to prove himself in the playoffs @11mil. Each of our young players including Kadri bring more to the table than JT does. So if course they would want 11 million too.

 

[kk87]

JT signing did in fact kill the rebuild. A young William Nylander when paired with Austin Matthews, built the confidence in his game. Management needed to address Nylander's contract first. When they didn't, he sat out.
2014 Willy
2015 Mitch
2116 Austin
Willy was a keeper. Take care of his contract first. Then Mitch, then Austin. If management do their job. We sign Willy @5mil; [email protected]; Austin @7 mil. Instead they sign someone who who had yet to prove himself in the playoffs @11mil. Each of our young players including Kadri bring more to the table than JT does. So if course they would want 11 million too.

I'm assuming the bolded is sarcastic lol

Realistically, given the market at the time, those three should've come in at $6.5m, $9m, and $10.5m respectively (each on deals with at least 6 and ideally 8 year term).

Anyone saying "we should never have signed Tavares" is buying into revisionist history. You won't find me one person who disliked the deal at the time. That said, I just really hope he can get his mojo and play like a $7-8m player for the rest of this year and next - at his current rate, he's looking like a $3-4m player, and that will really inhibit our ability to be competitive, especially next year.