How are you feeling about Tavares these days?

[Fogelhund]

This would be relevant point if we were picking a hockey pool and the only thing that mattered was points.

The reality is, these guys are paid to play on a hockey team, and Anze Kopitar is extremely valuable and useful to his team even if he doesn't score at all because he's outstanding defensively.

There is absolutely no comparison between Anze Kopitar and John Tavares and I think you know that.

I don't disagree with you at all. The main difference is Kopitar extended with his current team, Tavares went to the open market. Like I said, Open Market UFA's, you overpay. The main problem is, we didn't have success... had we won a cup, nobody cares. I also don't think it would have mattered if everyone took a little less, this group just doesn't know how to win.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If you think he has been "as advertised" you are not being honest about how people were talking at the time of signing John Tavares.

There was much talk here about how the Maple Leafs were going to set league records on their powerplay.

The reality is, while you claim Tavares has exceeded point totals from before the signing, the truth is, John Tavares has produced at *below* a point-a-game as a Maple Leaf.

This is his sixth season as a Maple Leaf and he has only had one season where he was over a point-a-game and that was his first year in Toronto. So five of the six years since he signed the deal, he hasn't even been over a point-a-game. For $11 million a season, I think the Leafs figured, worst case scenario, the first five years of the contract he would definitely be over a point-a-game and he's not.

I don't see this as being "as advertised" at all. The truth is, right now, John Tavares is 17 points below a point-a-game pace as a Maple Leaf. You're not being honest if you're claiming that is as advertised.

What I'm saying is that the contract was always an atrocity. You're lamenting that Tavares isn't a ppg player with the leafs... but he wasn't a ppg player before he was a leaf.

We're taking a guy who had a career average (per 82) of just over 30 goals and mid-high 70's in points.

Why did anybody believe that his numbers would jump to 11 million dollar value? Sure, he's around better players. But he's also not "the" guy anymore. He'd be moved to 2nd line center. He's guy four on the team after a career as guy 1.

Tavares g/pg and p/pg are higher as a leaf than they were on the island.

I'm still confused as to why anybody thought he'd do more than this or would come anywhere close to earning 11 mil.

 

[Nineteen67]

What I'm saying is that the contract was always an atrocity. You're lamenting that Tavares isn't a ppg player with the leafs... but he wasn't a ppg player before he was a leaf.

We're taking a guy who had a career average (per 82) of just over 30 goals and mid-high 70's in points.

Why did anybody believe that his numbers would jump to 11 million dollar value? Sure, he's around better players. But he's also not "the" guy anymore. He'd be moved to 2nd line center. He's guy four on the team after a career as guy 1.

Tavares g/pg and p/pg are higher as a leaf than they were on the island.

I'm still confused as to why anybody thought he'd do more than this or would come anywhere close to earning 11 mil.

We were warned, but we wanted that new shiny toy.

 

[Racer88]

We were warned, but we wanted that new shiny toy.

Dubas wanted the shiny toy to make his mark as a new GM. This was always about his ego

 

[Nineteen67]

Dubas wanted the shiny toy to make his mark as a new GM. This was always about his ego

I was hyped up at the time, even though my head told me it was too soon to stop the rebuild.

I had a fellow fan tell me it was a mistake before they signed him and he hit the nail right on the head with how the UFA contracts would be handled, and what he’d bring to the team.

When you have an apprentice GM you have to expect mistakes.

 

[Stephen]

Sure, if you want to pretend that when the Maple Leafs signed John Tavares their expectation was that he would only be a point-per-game player.

But I would have to ask, if the expectation was that he would only produce at a point-per-game despite being paired with the high end offensive weapons that Leafs had, why on earth did they pay him $11 million a season?

Seems pretty obvious they were expecting more than that, no?

I would say Leafs Nation didn’t have a solid picture of John Tavares in mind when he came here but just the promise of a marquee, franchise centerman dropped into a deep forward group. Adding talent at a rate we had not seen probably ever. Just a superficial addition to an already strong position. How could this possibly not succeed?

I loved the hype and sizzle of the addition at the time even though historically I’ve never been a JT guy. Always felt like he wasn’t quite up to the same level as a lot of his comparable coming up: Stamkos vs Tavares, Toews vs Tavares, Kane vs Tavares. Probably would have slightly preferred Giroux to Tavares too. But when you add a big fish you kind of get blinded by the hype.

 

[666]

I'm still confused as to why anybody thought he'd do more than this or would come anywhere close to earning 11 mil.

He was probably offered 8*$10M by the Islanders so we had to come close with 7 years. At least is will be over one year earlier.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

"We can and we will" (completely ruin the team's salary structure and waste the prime of our superstars).

 

[Ports]

You don't let the 7th highest scorer in the last 5 years walk in his prime lol.
You want to retool, you trade Willy before his NTC kicks in but that is pretty dumb too.
JT isn't going anywhere BTW

Willy’s NMC kicked in as soon as he signed his new contract per the CBA.

 

[Gallagbi]

Willy’s NMC kicked in as soon as he signed his new contract per the CBA.

I don't think it matters in Willy's case, but that's the first I've heard of it. Where does the CBA reference that?

 

[Stephen]

I don't disagree with you at all. The main difference is Kopitar extended with his current team, Tavares went to the open market. Like I said, Open Market UFA's, you overpay. The main problem is, we didn't have success... had we won a cup, nobody cares. I also don't think it would have mattered if everyone took a little less, this group just doesn't know how to win.

Kopitar and Tavares are also not necessarily on par as franchise centers. Kopitar is like Sundin with 2 cups.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Since joining the Leafs, Tavares is 19th in goal scoring, and 25th in points. That's pretty good production, and gives the Leafs one of the best one-two C punches in the league. You are always going to have to overpay in Free Agency, that's just one of the features of it....

Have we got value for the contract?

I mean, I look in Capfriendly, and see what his comparables are...Tavares is 13.84% and end up with contracts ranging from 15.27% to as low as 10.06%... Scheifele signed at 10.18%... which is quite a bit lower, and he's produced about the same... then again.. Kopitar has produced about the same and signed at 14%.

It certainly wasn't an egregious contract, but we didn't get value above the contract either.

Bottom line, we signed one of the top C's available in Free Agency in a decade, who switched teams, paid for it, and it didn't get us to a Cup.

Now the challenge is... is the current play a complete regression, how far will his play fall off, and at what price could you extend him?

First off Kopitar and Scheifele resigned with their teams. Signing JT when we did was not necessary. We lost a number of very good players(Kadri, Zach Hyman, Kapanen etc...) after his signing, being restrained by the cap. Players that would have brought us much closer to winning the cup. This team is No better since his arrival

 

[barilko05]

Tavares' contract was market value at the time. There were a number of teams ready to pony up 11 or more for his services. And for the last time...that number would probably be average for a 2nd line PPG centre today if not for...wait for it...COVID! You remember? The world wide scourge that held the salary cap down for 4 years. And yeah...he's lost a step (maybe two or three) but we all knew that was probably going to happen in the last 2 years of the deal. We just didn't figure on the cap hit being a much higher percentage of the total this late in the game. As my dad used to say..."you gots to speculate to accumulate." We rolled the dice and then the game changed. It happened. Get over it. And stop blaming Dubas for not being Nostradamus and seeing the future.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Tavares' contract was market value at the time. There were a number of teams ready to pony up 11 or more for his services. And for the last time...that number would probably be average for a 2nd line PPG centre today if not for...wait for it...COVID! You remember? The world wide scourge that held the salary cap down for 4 years. And yeah...he's lost a step (maybe two or three) but we all knew that was probably going to happen in the last 2 years of the deal. We just didn't figure on the cap hit being a much higher percentage of the total this late in the game. As my dad used to say..."you gots to speculate to accumulate." We rolled the dice and then the game changed. It happened. Get over it. And stop blaming Dubas for not being Nostradamus and seeing the future.

Beg to differ. JT signing ruined this team before Covid. We lost Hyman, Kapanen, Kadri. Long before Covid. Not to mention the ability to pick up a #1 D man. Which if you remember is what we needed at the time of the JT signing

 

[WillyC]

Beg to differ. JT signing ruined this team before Covid. We lost Hyman, Kapanen, Kadri. Long before Covid. Not to mention the ability to pick up a #1 D man. Which if you remember is what we needed at the time of the JT signing

Like Jack, nobody wanted to pay the bag Hyman was getting… Kapanen who?… Kadri played himself off the Leafs, there’s no way you keep him after his back to back playoff suspensions.

Finally, who is this #1 D you were going to sign in 2018… name him.

 

[A1LeafNation]

 

[Darcy Tucker]

^ I'm not sure that man knows what the eggplant emoji is actually used for.

 

[GoonieFace]

^ I'm not sure that man knows what the eggplant emoji is actually used for.

I don’t use it as I don’t want to misrepresent, I typically use a green bean

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Dude is the biggest reason our team can’t get over the hump and nothing can change my mind. I hope we don’t re-sign him at all

 

[budzz]

Like Jack, nobody wanted to pay the bag Hyman was getting… Kapanen who?… Kadri played himself off the Leafs, there’s no way you keep him after his back to back playoff suspensions.

Finally, who is this #1 D you were going to sign in 2018… name him.

I still think everyone misses the point of the Tavares signing entirely. Yes a bit overpaid but top center free agents are. The REAL VALUE in the Tavares signing is obvious... we had a green young stud first overall center in Matthews, in a red hot Hockey market. To protect that asset like the gold Nugget it is, you do your best to insulate a bit, PROTECT your young asset in a rabid market.. What better way than grab a respected veteran center to shoulder some load while Matty has room to grow without the entire weight of the franchise on his shoulders? Kadri certainly wasn't the answer for that, as stated he had issues with leafs management and, frankly, maturity (proud of his colorado run tho well done kads).

If you look at Tavares as giving Matty some elbow room, and he ends up being one of the greatest goal scorers of all time (very possible), you can't quantify the value of that.

 

[Stephen]

Tavares' contract was market value at the time. There were a number of teams ready to pony up 11 or more for his services. And for the last time...that number would probably be average for a 2nd line PPG centre today if not for...wait for it...COVID! You remember? The world wide scourge that held the salary cap down for 4 years. And yeah...he's lost a step (maybe two or three) but we all knew that was probably going to happen in the last 2 years of the deal. We just didn't figure on the cap hit being a much higher percentage of the total this late in the game. As my dad used to say..."you gots to speculate to accumulate." We rolled the dice and then the game changed. It happened. Get over it. And stop blaming Dubas for not being Nostradamus and seeing the future.

Tavares wasn't exactly "market value" as in players at Tavares level typically commanded whatever ended up giving him. His contract was a luxury price, more or less established a la free agent auction. We paid a premium. And down the line there were some hidden costs.

 

[Stephen]

I still think everyone misses the point of the Tavares signing entirely. Yes a bit overpaid but top center free agents are. The REAL VALUE in the Tavares signing is obvious... we had a green young stud first overall center in Matthews, in a red hot Hockey market. To protect that asset like the gold Nugget it is, you do your best to insulate a bit, PROTECT your young asset in a rabid market.. What better way than grab a respected veteran center to shoulder some load while Matty has room to grow without the entire weight of the franchise on his shoulders? Kadri certainly wasn't the answer for that, as stated he had issues with leafs management and, frankly, maturity (proud of his colorado run tho well done kads).

If you look at Tavares as giving Matty some elbow room, and he ends up being one of the greatest goal scorers of all time (very possible), you can't quantify the value of that.

This doesn't feel exactly right considering the Matthews, Nylander, Marner core insulated by Bozak, Kadri, van Riemsdyk had already made the playoffs twice in 2017 and 2018 without Tavares, which was an extremely big accomplishment considering the franchise had not made the playoffs in consecutive years since 2003 and 2004 and a lot of rebuilds don't even get there... and they had already started attracting stars like Patrick Marleau to come.

 

[budzz]

This doesn't feel exactly right considering the Matthews, Nylander, Marner core insulated by Bozak, Kadri, van Riemsdyk had already made the playoffs twice in 2017 and 2018 without Tavares, which was an extremely big accomplishment considering the franchise had not made the playoffs in consecutive years since 2003 and 2004 and a lot of rebuilds don't even get there... and they had already started attracting stars like Patrick Marleau to come.

That group didn't do so well and in terms of quality up the middle, there is no comparison between either Kadri or Bozak to a guy like Tavares, so I can see the thought process behind it. In retrospect we haven't done much better, but numbers wise the Tavares we signed is pretty much exactly the guy we got. Pretty consistent. We could have got seriously Huberdeau'd.

 

[budzz]

That group didn't do so well and in terms of quality up the middle, there is no comparison between either Kadri or Bozak to a guy like Tavares, so I can see the thought process behind it. In retrospect we haven't done much better, but numbers wise the Tavares we signed is pretty much exactly the guy we got. Pretty consistent. We could have got seriously Huberdeau'd.

... and to quote my own post and throw a little love to Cap'n JT, who is in a rut but will come around.... a snippet....

"Tavares scored in OT to give the Maple Leafs a 2-1 victory in Game 6 and a 4-2 series win in the best-of-7 Eastern Conference First Round, Toronto's first playoff series win in 19 years."

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Like Jack, nobody wanted to pay the bag Hyman was getting… Kapanen who?… Kadri played himself off the Leafs, there’s no way you keep him after his back to back playoff suspensions.

Finally, who is this #1 D you were going to sign in 2018… name him!!

Just because there isn't a #1 D man available, is no reason to throw away 11million/y on a player who has yet to prove himself in the playoffs. Kadri, and Hyman are on par with JT's output in the playoffs. JT is good in regular season hockey pools, nothing more...