HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 1

[overpass]

Not trying to open a can of worms here, but a lot of work has been done isolating a lot of different "types" of goals against. Some that matter more, some that matter less... what's left? in a tight playoff game, where almost every goal has some eventual importance, what are "normal" goals that we don't either hold against the goalie to a greater extent, or whitewash away?

I mean, if they allow the first goal, that's bad. if they allow a tying goal that's bad. if they allow a winning goal, that's bad. garbage time goals get disregarded. In the dead puck era, it feels like most goals would be in one of those categories, so what's even left?

The obvious answer is close games matter more, blowouts matter less. Third period performance is either less important (because one team has a comfortable lead) or more important (because it's close). Which you know, of course.

I think the first goal can have extra importance because it can dictate how the rest of the game is played. Especially in low scoring eras where one team can park the bus and make it really hard to score. For example, the DPE Sens were very reliant on getting the first goal because they were much better at scoring on counterattacks than against a team with 5 back. So it was particularly hard if Lalime gave up the first goal. But the first goal hasn't mattered as much in more recent higher scoring seasons, because you just can't defend a lead as well. I'm sure we've all seen the difference.

So the data from teams and eras that we didn't watch can help inform which goals mattered more, if any.

 

[nabby12]

The idea of Plante at 1 is becoming increasingly enticing. I didn't vote that way but I'm open to it being a thing.

Sawchuk*

 

[VanIslander]

Goalie or captain are default options when others don't stick out. (Just ask Crosby.)

Plante was the Hart trophy winner in their record 5th consecutive year. Boom Boom won it the year before. Beliveau was a candidate to win it again. Harvey, Richard...

Plante was dead in Hart voting every other year of his career except a late one in Toronto. Plante was not a regular candidate for MVP, but got it suddenly out of the blue, at the tail end of the Habs 5-year dynasty (coincidentally a famous Canadian children's book was popular).

And remember: his Vezinas were automatic formulaic awards, not voted on by peers.

If you respect contemporary opinion, then Vezinas & cups mean a whole lot.less in that era than 1st/2nd team all star selections and the opinions of your opponents (of players NOT on your team; especially of the best of the best who rave about you).

Hall is arguably the 3rd best goalie ever.
In the 1970s i recall lively debates about how Hall & Sawchuk are better than Plante! How Tretiak may be the best ever (this pre-1980s Roy & Hasek).

Plante was a great subject of a popular children's book though.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Reminder that ballots are due TONIGHT at 11:59 PM ET!

 

[jigglysquishy]

and the opinions of your opponents (of players NOT on your team; especially of the best of the best who rave about you).

Do we have any contemporary reports from players raving about Hall?

We certainly do about Sawchuk and Plante.

Beliveau going out of his way to praise Sawchuk is relevant.

Howe explicitly preferring Sawchuk to Hall is relevant.

Bowman praising Sawchuk and Plante is relevant.

Hall is never spoken of poorly. But he isn't heaped with praise like Plante and particularly Sawchuk are.

 

[VanIslander]

"Glenn was a breed apart. Not only for what he did on the ice, but for how he was in the locker room and with fans. In a class by himself." - SCOTTY BOWMAN, after Hall won a record 7th 1st team all star, at least one from each of three different franchises.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

There's been a lot of talk about Patrick Roy's elite save percentage results, his number of times leading the league and so on.

I wanted to see how they look after adjusting for coaching, so for all of Roy's seasons from 1986-87 to 2002-03 I used my coaching ratings (and nothing else, these are all the raw ratings with no adjustments) on every goalie season with at least 30 GP, and then ranked them by save percentage.

1986-87 (edited - first table posted had an error):

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Ron Hextall	66​	0.902​	41.8​	Keenan	0.97​	0.899​	36.5​
2​	Daniel Berthiaume	31​	0.885​	4.2​	Maloney D	1.07​	0.893​	10.4​
3​	Glen Hanlon	36​	0.893​	13.1​	Demers	0.99​	0.892​	11.7​
4​	Allan Bester	36​	0.889​	8.7​	Brophy	1.02​	0.891​	11.3​
5​	Mark LaForest	5​	0.892​	1.3​	Demers	0.99​	0.891​	1.2​
6​	Mario Gosselin	30​	0.886​	4.7​	Bergeron	1.03​	0.889​	7.0​
7​	Pokey Reddick	48​	0.881​	1.7​	Maloney D	1.07​	0.889​	11.6​
8​	Bob Froese	31​	0.885​	4.8​	Esposito	1.03​	0.889​	7.9​
9​	Brian Hayward	37​	0.893​	13.0​	Perron	0.95​	0.888​	7.7​
10​	Mike Liut	59​	0.885​	7.9​	Evans	1.03​	0.888​	12.9​
14​	Patrick Roy	46​	0.891​	13.9​	Perron	0.95​	0.886​	7.1​

1987-88:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Kelly Hrudey	54​	0.896​	23.3​	Simpson T	1.01​	0.896​	24.2​
2​	Greg Stefan	33​	0.896​	14.9​	Demers	0.99​	0.895​	13.7​
3​	Patrick Roy	45​	0.900​	25.0​	Perron	0.95​	0.895​	18.5​
4​	Tom Barrasso	54​	0.896​	26.2​	Sator	0.99​	0.894​	24.2​
5​	Billy Smith	38​	0.894​	14.6​	Simpson T	1.01​	0.894​	15.3​
6​	Pete Peeters	35​	0.898​	16.1​	Murray Bry	0.96​	0.894​	12.3​
7​	John Vanbiesbrouck	56​	0.890​	17.3​	Bergeron	1.03​	0.893​	22.2​
8​	Brian Hayward	39​	0.896​	17.0​	Perron	0.95​	0.891​	11.5​
9​	Daniel Berthiaume	56​	0.882​	2.9​	Maloney D	1.07​	0.890​	14.6​
10​	Glen Hanlon	47​	0.891​	14.3​	Demers	0.99​	0.889​	12.5​

1988-89:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Jon Casey	55​	0.900​	31.1​	Page	1.01​	0.901​	32.8​
2​	Mike Vernon	52​	0.897​	22.7​	Crisp	1.04​	0.901​	27.2​
3​	Kari Takko	32​	0.899​	17.9​	Page	1.01​	0.900​	19.0​
4​	Patrick Roy	48​	0.908​	35.2​	Burns P	0.90​	0.897​	22.4​
5​	Peter Sidorkiewicz	44​	0.890​	12.8​	Pleau	1.02​	0.892​	15.5​
6​	Steve Weeks	35​	0.892​	12.4​	McCammon	1.00​	0.892​	11.9​
7​	Kirk McLean	42​	0.891​	14.0​	McCammon	1.00​	0.891​	13.4​
8​	Ron Hextall	64​	0.891​	22.3​	Holmgren	0.99​	0.890​	20.8​
9​	Alan Bester	43​	0.890​	15.1​	Armstrong	1.00​	0.890​	15.1​
10​	Daren Puppa	37​	0.889​	9.1​	Sator	0.99​	0.887​	7.8​

1989-90:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Mike Liut	37​	0.905​	23.0​	Ley	1.06​	0.910​	28.2​
2​	Patrick Roy	54​	0.912​	47.4​	Burns P	0.90​	0.902​	32.2​
3​	Jon Casey	61​	0.896​	25.9​	Page	1.01​	0.897​	28.0​
4​	Andy Moog	46​	0.893​	14.5​	Milbury	1.03​	0.896​	17.9​
5​	Rejean Lemelin	43​	0.892​	11.2​	Milbury	1.03​	0.895​	14.2​
6​	Daren Puppa	56​	0.903​	35.7​	Dudley	0.90​	0.893​	19.1​
7​	Chris Terreri	35​	0.89​	9.3​	Cunniff	1.01​	0.891​	10.4​
8​	Ken Wregget	51​	0.891​	16.6​	Holmgren	0.99​	0.891​	15.4​
9​	Bob Essensa	36​	0.891​	10.3​	Murdoch	0.97​	0.888​	7.0​
10​	Vincent Riendeau	43​	0.883​	2.3​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.886​	6.3​

1990-91:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Ed Belfour	74​	0.910​	44.6​	Keenan	0.97​	0.907​	39.9​
2​	Curtis Joseph	30​	0.898​	10.6​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.901​	13.0​
3​	Kelly Hrudey	47​	0.900​	18.6​	Webster	1.00​	0.900​	18.3​
4​	Andy Moog	51​	0.896​	13.0​	Milbury	1.03​	0.899​	16.8​
5​	Don Beaupre	45​	0.897​	11.8​	Murray T	1.00​	0.897​	12.2​
6​	Patrick Roy	48​	0.906​	27.2​	Burns P	0.90​	0.895​	12.7​
7​	Vincent Riendeau	44​	0.892​	7.5​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.895​	11.1​
8​	Bob Essensa	55​	0.898​	17.5​	Murdoch	0.97​	0.895​	12.7​
9​	Mike Richter	45​	0.903​	23.7​	Neilson	0.92​	0.894​	11.8​
10​	Chris Terreri	53​	0.893​	9.6​	Cunniff	1.01​	0.894​	11.1​

1991-92:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Curtis Joseph	60​	0.910​	43.4​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.913​	48.2​
2​	Bob Essensa	47​	0.910​	31.4​	Paddock	1.02​	0.913​	34.4​
3​	Patrick Roy	67​	0.914​	47.0​	Burns P	0.90​	0.904​	29.4​
4​	Kirk McLean	65​	0.901​	23.1​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.903​	26.3​
5​	Jeff Hackett	42​	0.892​	4.8​	Kingston	1.12​	0.903​	20.5​
6​	John Vanbiesbrouck	45​	0.910​	28.9​	Neilson	0.92​	0.902​	18.3​
7​	Kelly Hrudey	60​	0.897​	17.3​	Webster	1.00​	0.897​	16.9​
8​	Chris Terreri	54​	0.888​	0.0​	McVie	1.08​	0.897​	12.7​
9​	Andy Moog	62​	0.887​	-2.9​	Bowness	1.05​	0.892​	6.1​
10​	Mike Richter	41​	0.901​	15.8​	Neilson	0.92​	0.893​	5.3​

1992-93:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Curtis Joseph	68​	0.911​	57.4​	Berry	0.96​	0.907​	49.2​
2​	Ed Belfour	71​	0.906​	39.4​	Sutter Da	0.95​	0.901​	29.9​
3​	John Vanbiesbrouck	48​	0.900​	23.5​	Smith R	1.00​	0.900​	23.5​
4​	Felix Potvin	48​	0.910​	32.0​	Burns P	0.90​	0.900​	18.8​
5​	Arturs Irbe	36​	0.886​	1.9​	Kingston	1.12​	0.898​	17.0​
6​	Bob Essensa	67​	0.893​	16.9​	Paddock	1.02​	0.895​	22.3​
7​	Tommy Soderstrom	44​	0.892​	9.7​	Dineen B	1.03​	0.895​	13.6​
8​	Daren Puppa	32​	0.898​	12.0​	Muckler	0.96​	0.893​	7.9​
9​	Patrick Roy	62​	0.894​	16.8​	Demers	0.99​	0.893​	14.3​
10​	Kay Whitmore	31​	0.890​	4.7​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.892​	6.5​

1993-94:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	58​	0.930​	53.9​	Muckler	0.960​	0.927​	49.3​
2​	John Vanbiesbrouck	57​	0.924​	55.6​	Neilson	0.919​	0.917​	42.8​
3​	Patrick Roy	68​	0.918​	44.2​	Demers	0.987​	0.917​	42.2​
4​	Darcy Wakaluk	36​	0.910​	14.6​	Gainey	0.998​	0.910​	14.4​
5​	Mike Richter	68​	0.910​	25.5​	Keenan	0.973​	0.907​	21.0​
6​	Curtis Joseph	71​	0.911​	36.9​	Berry	0.960​	0.907​	28.0​
7​	Guy Hebert	52​	0.907​	17.8​	Wilson Ron	0.999​	0.907​	17.7​
8​	Martin Brodeur	47​	0.915​	24.9​	Lemaire	0.909​	0.907​	14.4​
9​	Sean Burke	47​	0.906​	16.0​	McGuire	1.000​	0.906​	16.0​
10​	Daren Puppa	63​	0.899​	6.8​	Crisp	1.036​	0.903​	12.5​

1994-95:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	41​	0.930​	36.4​	Muckler	0.960​	0.927​	32.8​
2​	Jocelyn Thibault	18​	0.917​	7.1​	Crawford	1.016​	0.919​	7.6​
3​	Jim Carey	28​	0.913​	8.0​	Schoenfeld	1.026​	0.915​	9.5​
4​	Andy Moog	31​	0.915​	12.1​	Gainey	0.998​	0.915​	11.9​
5​	Dominic Roussel	19​	0.914​	6.3​	Murray T	1.004​	0.914​	6.5​
6​	Sean Burke	42​	0.912​	14.6​	Holmgren	0.993​	0.912​	13.8​
7​	Stephane Fiset	32​	0.910​	9.2​	Crawford	1.016​	0.912​	10.6​
8​	Kirk McLean	40​	0.904​	4.3​	Ley	1.061​	0.910​	10.6​
9​	Kelly Hrudey	35​	0.910​	10.3​	Melrose	0.996​	0.910​	9.9​
10​	Chris Osgood	19​	0.917​	8.3​	Bowman	0.912​	0.909​	4.3​
14​	Patrick Roy	43​	0.906​	7.9​	Demers	0.987​	0.905​	6.3​

1995-96:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Daren Puppa	57​	0.918​	32.0​	Crisp	1.04​	0.921​	36.6​
2​	Guy Hebert	59​	0.914​	27.9​	Wilson Ron	1.00​	0.914​	27.8​
3​	Ron Hextall	53​	0.913​	19.2​	Murray T	1.00​	0.914​	19.7​
4​	Dominik Hasek	59​	0.92​	43.3​	Nolan	0.92​	0.913​	29.7​
5​	Patrick Roy	61​	0.908​	17.5​	Crawford	1.02​	0.910​	20.1​
6​	Jeff Hackett	35​	0.916​	16.3​	Hartsburg	0.93​	0.909​	10.4​
7​	Nikolai Khabibulin	53​	0.908​	16.2​	Simpson T	1.01​	0.909​	17.1​
8​	Jim Carey	71​	0.906​	12.7​	Schoenfeld	1.03​	0.909​	16.6​
9​	Mike Richter	41​	0.912​	17.0​	Campbell	0.96​	0.908​	12.2​
10​	Corey Hirsch	41​	0.903​	5.2​	Ley	1.06​	0.908​	11.7​

1996-97:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Patrick Roy	62​	0.923​	34.3​	Crawford	1.02​	0.924​	36.5​
2​	Dominik Hasek	67​	0.930​	54.4​	Nolan	0.92​	0.924​	41.5​
3​	Jeff Hackett	41​	0.927​	26.5​	Hartsburg	0.93​	0.921​	19.9​
4​	Guy Hebert	67​	0.919​	31.2​	Wilson Ron	1.00​	0.919​	31.1​
5​	Martin Brodeur	67​	0.927​	35.6​	Lemaire	0.91​	0.919​	23.5​
6​	John Vanbiesbrouck	57​	0.919​	22.7​	MacLean D	0.97​	0.917​	19.3​
7​	Patrick Lalime	39​	0.913​	10.1​	Johnston E	1.01​	0.915​	11.6​
8​	Sean Burke	51​	0.914​	14.6​	Maurice	1.00​	0.914​	14.3​
9​	Mike Richter	61​	0.917​	24.3​	Campbell	0.96​	0.914​	17.1​
10​	Curtis Joseph	72​	0.907​	4.3​	Low	1.08​	0.913​	18.6​

1997-98:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	72​	0.932​	54.5​	Ruff	0.99​	0.931​	53.0​
2​	Tom Barrasso	63​	0.922​	23.9​	Constantine	1.03​	0.924​	27.4​
3​	Trevor Kidd	47​	0.922​	19.0​	Maurice	1.00​	0.921​	18.8​
4​	Olaf Kolzig	64​	0.920​	23.1​	Wilson Ron	1.00​	0.920​	23.0​
5​	Patrick Roy	65​	0.916​	18.1​	Crawford	1.02​	0.917​	20.5​
6​	Ed Belfour	61​	0.916​	13.2​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.914​	11.0​
7​	Curtis Joseph	71​	0.905​	-2.8​	Low	1.08​	0.912​	10.2​
8​	Jeff Hackett	58​	0.917​	16.5​	Hartsburg	0.93​	0.911​	7.2​
9​	Ron Hextall	46​	0.911​	5.1​	Cashman	1.00​	0.911​	5.1​
10​	Felix Potvin	67​	0.906​	0.5​	Murphy	1.05​	0.911​	8.6​

1998-99:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	64​	0.937​	54.1​	Ruff	0.99​	0.936​	52.9​
2​	Nikolai Khabibulin	63​	0.923​	25.0​	Schoenfeld	1.03​	0.925​	28.4​
3​	Ron Tugnutt	43​	0.925​	17.7​	Martin	0.99​	0.925​	16.8​
4​	Arturs Irbe	62​	0.923​	26.6​	Maurice	1.00​	0.923​	26.3​
5​	Patrick Roy	61​	0.917​	15.3​	Hartley	1.02​	0.918​	17.6​
6​	Byron Dafoe	68​	0.926​	33.0​	Burns P	0.90​	0.918​	17.9​
7​	Steve Shields	37​	0.921​	13.2​	Sutter Da	0.95​	0.917​	9.0​
8​	Guy Hebert	69​	0.922​	29.9​	Hartsburg	0.93​	0.916​	17.7​
9​	Ed Belfour	61​	0.915​	9.6​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.913​	7.3​
10​	Stephane Fiset	42​	0.915​	8.2​	Robinson	0.98​	0.913​	5.8​

1999-00:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	35​	0.919​	13.6​	Ruff	0.99​	0.918​	12.8​
2​	Jean-Sebastien Aubin	51​	0.914​	13.1​	Brooks	1.05​	0.918​	18.8​
3​	Ed Belfour	62​	0.919​	23.2​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.918​	20.7​
4​	Mike Vernon	49​	0.917​	16.9​	Murray T	1.00​	0.917​	17.4​
5​	Olaf Kolzig	73​	0.917​	24.1​	Wilson Ron	1.00​	0.917​	24.0​
6​	Curtis Joseph	63​	0.915​	19.3​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.916​	22.2​
7​	Patrick Roy	63​	0.914​	15.8​	Hartley	1.02​	0.915​	18.2​
8​	Martin Brodeur	72​	0.91​	10.8​	Ftorek	1.06​	0.915​	19.4​
9​	Jose Theodore	30​	0.919​	10.6​	Vigneault	0.95​	0.915​	7.5​
10​	Roman Turek	67​	0.912​	11.5​	Quenneville	1.02​	0.914​	14.0​

2000-01:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	67​	0.921​	30.0​	Ruff	0.99​	0.920​	28.6​
2​	Sean Burke	62​	0.922​	32.9​	Francis B	0.97​	0.919​	28.2​
3​	Mike Dunham	48​	0.923​	26.6​	Trotz	0.94​	0.918​	19.7​
4​	Roman Cechmanek	59​	0.921​	26.6​	Barber	0.95​	0.917​	20.4​
5​	Roberto Luongo	47​	0.920​	22.0​	Sutter Du	0.97​	0.917​	18.5​
6​	Ron Tugnutt	53​	0.917​	20.8​	King Dave	1.00​	0.917​	20.8​
7​	Curtis Joseph	68​	0.915​	21.5​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.916​	24.5​
8​	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	34​	0.911​	7.4​	Charron	1.04​	0.914​	10.9​
9​	Patrick Roy	62​	0.913​	14.4​	Hartley	1.02​	0.914​	16.6​
10​	Patrick Lalime	60​	0.914​	17.7​	Martin	0.99​	0.913​	16.0​

2001-02:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Jose Theodore	67​	0.931​	45.9​	Therrien	0.96​	0.928​	39.8​
2​	Patrick Roy	63​	0.925​	28.3​	Hartley	1.02​	0.926​	30.4​
3​	Nikolai Khabibulin	70​	0.920​	23.6​	Tortorella	1.01​	0.921​	24.6​
4​	Marty Turco	31​	0.921​	8.8​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.919​	7.8​
5​	Milan Hnilicka	60​	0.908​	1.4​	Fraser	1.12​	0.919​	21.2​
6​	Sean Burke	60​	0.920​	20.8​	Francis B	0.97​	0.917​	16.2​
7​	Roman Cechmanek	46​	0.921​	15.3​	Barber	0.95​	0.917​	10.5​
8​	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	53​	0.920​	16.7​	Murray Bry	0.96​	0.916​	11.9​
9​	Tommy Salo	69​	0.913​	9.0​	MacTavish	1.03​	0.915​	13.1​
10​	Martin Biron	72​	0.915​	13.3​	Ruff	0.99​	0.914​	11.8​

2002-03:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Marty Turco	55​	0.932​	31.9​	Tippett	0.98​	0.931​	30.2​
2​	Roman Cechmanek	58​	0.925​	22.7​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.924​	20.7​
3​	Ed Belfour	62​	0.922​	24.6​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.924​	27.1​
4​	Patrick Roy	63​	0.92​	20.1​	Granato T	0.99​	0.920​	19.1​
5​	Dwayne Roloson	50​	0.927​	23.6​	Lemaire	0.91​	0.919​	13.8​
6​	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	65​	0.92​	20.9​	Babcock	0.99​	0.919​	18.7​
7​	Garth Snow	43​	0.918​	10.1​	Laviolette	1.01​	0.918​	10.8​
8​	Jocelyn Thibault	62​	0.915​	10.1​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.917​	14.0​
9​	Manny Fernandez	35​	0.924​	14.6​	Lemaire	0.91​	0.916​	7.2​
10​	Roberto Luongo	65​	0.918​	19.3​	Keenan	0.97​	0.916​	14.8​

And of course we can quibble with some of the different coaching ratings or individuals that are ranked here or there. But I'm not sure Roy's results are that far out of place, in aggregate. That's still obviously a very consistently elite goalie (1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4-5-5-5-6-7-9-9 in save percentage finishes in a 21-30 team league is absolutely an elite inner-tier performance), but the dominant finishes relative to the rest of the league mostly go away (you can maybe still give him credit for 1989-90, since Liut didn't have a lot of GP and may be getting an overly favourable adjustment there).

Elite consistency but not necessarily peaking way ahead of everyone else? To me, that looks a lot like Jacques Plante, to be honest.

On the other hand, Dominik Hasek still has six save percentage titles in this adjusted scenario (as many as Roy has top-3 finishes), and a couple of his peak seasons do look much closer to the pack based on these adjustments, but he still has four years where he obliterates the competition in a way that probably no other goalie ever has (and he did it against a global talent pool that included elite Americans and Europeans). That's why he's my #1, then Plante, then Roy.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Plante was the Hart trophy winner in their record 5th consecutive year. Boom Boom won it the year before. Beliveau was a candidate to win it again. Harvey, Richard...

Plante was dead in Hart voting every other year of his career except a late one in Toronto. Plante was not a regular candidate for MVP, but got it suddenly out of the blue, at the tail end of the Habs 5-year dynasty (coincidentally a famous Canadian children's book was popular).

He did not get it "out of the blue", it was the first year without the best d-man of all time in front of him...and Plante had one of the best years of his career.

Plante received scant consideration in 1959 (2nd among goalies). Also received some weak consideration in '63 as well.

 

[MXD]

There's been a lot of talk about Patrick Roy's elite save percentage results, his number of times leading the league and so on.

I wanted to see how they look after adjusting for coaching, so for all of Roy's seasons from 1986-87 to 2002-03 I used my coaching ratings (and nothing else, these are all the raw ratings with no adjustments) on every goalie season with at least 30 GP, and then ranked them by save percentage.

1986-87 (edited - first table posted had an error):

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Ron Hextall	66​	0.902​	41.8​	Keenan	0.97​	0.899​	36.5​
2​	Daniel Berthiaume	31​	0.885​	4.2​	Maloney D	1.07​	0.893​	10.4​
3​	Glen Hanlon	36​	0.893​	13.1​	Demers	0.99​	0.892​	11.7​
4​	Allan Bester	36​	0.889​	8.7​	Brophy	1.02​	0.891​	11.3​
5​	Mark LaForest	5​	0.892​	1.3​	Demers	0.99​	0.891​	1.2​
6​	Mario Gosselin	30​	0.886​	4.7​	Bergeron	1.03​	0.889​	7.0​
7​	Pokey Reddick	48​	0.881​	1.7​	Maloney D	1.07​	0.889​	11.6​
8​	Bob Froese	31​	0.885​	4.8​	Esposito	1.03​	0.889​	7.9​
9​	Brian Hayward	37​	0.893​	13.0​	Perron	0.95​	0.888​	7.7​
10​	Mike Liut	59​	0.885​	7.9​	Evans	1.03​	0.888​	12.9​
14​	Patrick Roy	46​	0.891​	13.9​	Perron	0.95​	0.886​	7.1​

1987-88:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Kelly Hrudey	54​	0.896​	23.3​	Simpson T	1.01​	0.896​	24.2​
2​	Greg Stefan	33​	0.896​	14.9​	Demers	0.99​	0.895​	13.7​
3​	Patrick Roy	45​	0.900​	25.0​	Perron	0.95​	0.895​	18.5​
4​	Tom Barrasso	54​	0.896​	26.2​	Sator	0.99​	0.894​	24.2​
5​	Billy Smith	38​	0.894​	14.6​	Simpson T	1.01​	0.894​	15.3​
6​	Pete Peeters	35​	0.898​	16.1​	Murray Bry	0.96​	0.894​	12.3​
7​	John Vanbiesbrouck	56​	0.890​	17.3​	Bergeron	1.03​	0.893​	22.2​
8​	Brian Hayward	39​	0.896​	17.0​	Perron	0.95​	0.891​	11.5​
9​	Daniel Berthiaume	56​	0.882​	2.9​	Maloney D	1.07​	0.890​	14.6​
10​	Glen Hanlon	47​	0.891​	14.3​	Demers	0.99​	0.889​	12.5​

1988-89:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Jon Casey	55​	0.900​	31.1​	Page	1.01​	0.901​	32.8​
2​	Mike Vernon	52​	0.897​	22.7​	Crisp	1.04​	0.901​	27.2​
3​	Kari Takko	32​	0.899​	17.9​	Page	1.01​	0.900​	19.0​
4​	Patrick Roy	48​	0.908​	35.2​	Burns P	0.90​	0.897​	22.4​
5​	Peter Sidorkiewicz	44​	0.890​	12.8​	Pleau	1.02​	0.892​	15.5​
6​	Steve Weeks	35​	0.892​	12.4​	McCammon	1.00​	0.892​	11.9​
7​	Kirk McLean	42​	0.891​	14.0​	McCammon	1.00​	0.891​	13.4​
8​	Ron Hextall	64​	0.891​	22.3​	Holmgren	0.99​	0.890​	20.8​
9​	Alan Bester	43​	0.890​	15.1​	Armstrong	1.00​	0.890​	15.1​
10​	Daren Puppa	37​	0.889​	9.1​	Sator	0.99​	0.887​	7.8​

1989-90:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Mike Liut	37​	0.905​	23.0​	Ley	1.06​	0.910​	28.2​
2​	Patrick Roy	54​	0.912​	47.4​	Burns P	0.90​	0.902​	32.2​
3​	Jon Casey	61​	0.896​	25.9​	Page	1.01​	0.897​	28.0​
4​	Andy Moog	46​	0.893​	14.5​	Milbury	1.03​	0.896​	17.9​
5​	Rejean Lemelin	43​	0.892​	11.2​	Milbury	1.03​	0.895​	14.2​
6​	Daren Puppa	56​	0.903​	35.7​	Dudley	0.90​	0.893​	19.1​
7​	Chris Terreri	35​	0.89​	9.3​	Cunniff	1.01​	0.891​	10.4​
8​	Ken Wregget	51​	0.891​	16.6​	Holmgren	0.99​	0.891​	15.4​
9​	Bob Essensa	36​	0.891​	10.3​	Murdoch	0.97​	0.888​	7.0​
10​	Vincent Riendeau	43​	0.883​	2.3​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.886​	6.3​

1990-91:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Ed Belfour	74​	0.910​	44.6​	Keenan	0.97​	0.907​	39.9​
2​	Curtis Joseph	30​	0.898​	10.6​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.901​	13.0​
3​	Kelly Hrudey	47​	0.900​	18.6​	Webster	1.00​	0.900​	18.3​
4​	Andy Moog	51​	0.896​	13.0​	Milbury	1.03​	0.899​	16.8​
5​	Don Beaupre	45​	0.897​	11.8​	Murray T	1.00​	0.897​	12.2​
6​	Patrick Roy	48​	0.906​	27.2​	Burns P	0.90​	0.895​	12.7​
7​	Vincent Riendeau	44​	0.892​	7.5​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.895​	11.1​
8​	Bob Essensa	55​	0.898​	17.5​	Murdoch	0.97​	0.895​	12.7​
9​	Mike Richter	45​	0.903​	23.7​	Neilson	0.92​	0.894​	11.8​
10​	Chris Terreri	53​	0.893​	9.6​	Cunniff	1.01​	0.894​	11.1​

1991-92:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Curtis Joseph	60​	0.910​	43.4​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.913​	48.2​
2​	Bob Essensa	47​	0.910​	31.4​	Paddock	1.02​	0.913​	34.4​
3​	Patrick Roy	67​	0.914​	47.0​	Burns P	0.90​	0.904​	29.4​
4​	Kirk McLean	65​	0.901​	23.1​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.903​	26.3​
5​	Jeff Hackett	42​	0.892​	4.8​	Kingston	1.12​	0.903​	20.5​
6​	John Vanbiesbrouck	45​	0.910​	28.9​	Neilson	0.92​	0.902​	18.3​
7​	Kelly Hrudey	60​	0.897​	17.3​	Webster	1.00​	0.897​	16.9​
8​	Chris Terreri	54​	0.888​	0.0​	McVie	1.08​	0.897​	12.7​
9​	Andy Moog	62​	0.887​	-2.9​	Bowness	1.05​	0.892​	6.1​
10​	Mike Richter	41​	0.901​	15.8​	Neilson	0.92​	0.893​	5.3​

1992-93:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Curtis Joseph	68​	0.911​	57.4​	Berry	0.96​	0.907​	49.2​
2​	Ed Belfour	71​	0.906​	39.4​	Sutter Da	0.95​	0.901​	29.9​
3​	John Vanbiesbrouck	48​	0.900​	23.5​	Smith R	1.00​	0.900​	23.5​
4​	Felix Potvin	48​	0.910​	32.0​	Burns P	0.90​	0.900​	18.8​
5​	Arturs Irbe	36​	0.886​	1.9​	Kingston	1.12​	0.898​	17.0​
6​	Bob Essensa	67​	0.893​	16.9​	Paddock	1.02​	0.895​	22.3​
7​	Tommy Soderstrom	44​	0.892​	9.7​	Dineen B	1.03​	0.895​	13.6​
8​	Daren Puppa	32​	0.898​	12.0​	Muckler	0.96​	0.893​	7.9​
9​	Patrick Roy	62​	0.894​	16.8​	Demers	0.99​	0.893​	14.3​
10​	Kay Whitmore	31​	0.890​	4.7​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.892​	6.5​

1993-94:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	58​	0.930​	53.9​	Muckler	0.960​	0.927​	49.3​
2​	John Vanbiesbrouck	57​	0.924​	55.6​	Neilson	0.919​	0.917​	42.8​
3​	Patrick Roy	68​	0.918​	44.2​	Demers	0.987​	0.917​	42.2​
4​	Darcy Wakaluk	36​	0.910​	14.6​	Gainey	0.998​	0.910​	14.4​
5​	Mike Richter	68​	0.910​	25.5​	Keenan	0.973​	0.907​	21.0​
6​	Curtis Joseph	71​	0.911​	36.9​	Berry	0.960​	0.907​	28.0​
7​	Guy Hebert	52​	0.907​	17.8​	Wilson Ron	0.999​	0.907​	17.7​
8​	Martin Brodeur	47​	0.915​	24.9​	Lemaire	0.909​	0.907​	14.4​
9​	Sean Burke	47​	0.906​	16.0​	McGuire	1.000​	0.906​	16.0​
10​	Daren Puppa	63​	0.899​	6.8​	Crisp	1.036​	0.903​	12.5​

1994-95:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	41​	0.930​	36.4​	Muckler	0.960​	0.927​	32.8​
2​	Jocelyn Thibault	18​	0.917​	7.1​	Crawford	1.016​	0.919​	7.6​
3​	Jim Carey	28​	0.913​	8.0​	Schoenfeld	1.026​	0.915​	9.5​
4​	Andy Moog	31​	0.915​	12.1​	Gainey	0.998​	0.915​	11.9​
5​	Dominic Roussel	19​	0.914​	6.3​	Murray T	1.004​	0.914​	6.5​
6​	Sean Burke	42​	0.912​	14.6​	Holmgren	0.993​	0.912​	13.8​
7​	Stephane Fiset	32​	0.910​	9.2​	Crawford	1.016​	0.912​	10.6​
8​	Kirk McLean	40​	0.904​	4.3​	Ley	1.061​	0.910​	10.6​
9​	Kelly Hrudey	35​	0.910​	10.3​	Melrose	0.996​	0.910​	9.9​
10​	Chris Osgood	19​	0.917​	8.3​	Bowman	0.912​	0.909​	4.3​
14​	Patrick Roy	43​	0.906​	7.9​	Demers	0.987​	0.905​	6.3​

1995-96:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Daren Puppa	57​	0.918​	32.0​	Crisp	1.04​	0.921​	36.6​
2​	Guy Hebert	59​	0.914​	27.9​	Wilson Ron	1.00​	0.914​	27.8​
3​	Ron Hextall	53​	0.913​	19.2​	Murray T	1.00​	0.914​	19.7​
4​	Dominik Hasek	59​	0.92​	43.3​	Nolan	0.92​	0.913​	29.7​
5​	Patrick Roy	61​	0.908​	17.5​	Crawford	1.02​	0.910​	20.1​
6​	Jeff Hackett	35​	0.916​	16.3​	Hartsburg	0.93​	0.909​	10.4​
7​	Nikolai Khabibulin	53​	0.908​	16.2​	Simpson T	1.01​	0.909​	17.1​
8​	Jim Carey	71​	0.906​	12.7​	Schoenfeld	1.03​	0.909​	16.6​
9​	Mike Richter	41​	0.912​	17.0​	Campbell	0.96​	0.908​	12.2​
10​	Corey Hirsch	41​	0.903​	5.2​	Ley	1.06​	0.908​	11.7​

1996-97:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Patrick Roy	62​	0.923​	34.3​	Crawford	1.02​	0.924​	36.5​
2​	Dominik Hasek	67​	0.930​	54.4​	Nolan	0.92​	0.924​	41.5​
3​	Jeff Hackett	41​	0.927​	26.5​	Hartsburg	0.93​	0.921​	19.9​
4​	Guy Hebert	67​	0.919​	31.2​	Wilson Ron	1.00​	0.919​	31.1​
5​	Martin Brodeur	67​	0.927​	35.6​	Lemaire	0.91​	0.919​	23.5​
6​	John Vanbiesbrouck	57​	0.919​	22.7​	MacLean D	0.97​	0.917​	19.3​
7​	Patrick Lalime	39​	0.913​	10.1​	Johnston E	1.01​	0.915​	11.6​
8​	Sean Burke	51​	0.914​	14.6​	Maurice	1.00​	0.914​	14.3​
9​	Mike Richter	61​	0.917​	24.3​	Campbell	0.96​	0.914​	17.1​
10​	Curtis Joseph	72​	0.907​	4.3​	Low	1.08​	0.913​	18.6​

1997-98:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	72​	0.932​	54.5​	Ruff	0.99​	0.931​	53.0​
2​	Tom Barrasso	63​	0.922​	23.9​	Constantine	1.03​	0.924​	27.4​
3​	Trevor Kidd	47​	0.922​	19.0​	Maurice	1.00​	0.921​	18.8​
4​	Olaf Kolzig	64​	0.920​	23.1​	Wilson Ron	1.00​	0.920​	23.0​
5​	Patrick Roy	65​	0.916​	18.1​	Crawford	1.02​	0.917​	20.5​
6​	Ed Belfour	61​	0.916​	13.2​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.914​	11.0​
7​	Curtis Joseph	71​	0.905​	-2.8​	Low	1.08​	0.912​	10.2​
8​	Jeff Hackett	58​	0.917​	16.5​	Hartsburg	0.93​	0.911​	7.2​
9​	Ron Hextall	46​	0.911​	5.1​	Cashman	1.00​	0.911​	5.1​
10​	Felix Potvin	67​	0.906​	0.5​	Murphy	1.05​	0.911​	8.6​

1998-99:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	64​	0.937​	54.1​	Ruff	0.99​	0.936​	52.9​
2​	Nikolai Khabibulin	63​	0.923​	25.0​	Schoenfeld	1.03​	0.925​	28.4​
3​	Ron Tugnutt	43​	0.925​	17.7​	Martin	0.99​	0.925​	16.8​
4​	Arturs Irbe	62​	0.923​	26.6​	Maurice	1.00​	0.923​	26.3​
5​	Patrick Roy	61​	0.917​	15.3​	Hartley	1.02​	0.918​	17.6​
6​	Byron Dafoe	68​	0.926​	33.0​	Burns P	0.90​	0.918​	17.9​
7​	Steve Shields	37​	0.921​	13.2​	Sutter Da	0.95​	0.917​	9.0​
8​	Guy Hebert	69​	0.922​	29.9​	Hartsburg	0.93​	0.916​	17.7​
9​	Ed Belfour	61​	0.915​	9.6​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.913​	7.3​
10​	Stephane Fiset	42​	0.915​	8.2​	Robinson	0.98​	0.913​	5.8​

1999-00:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	35​	0.919​	13.6​	Ruff	0.99​	0.918​	12.8​
2​	Jean-Sebastien Aubin	51​	0.914​	13.1​	Brooks	1.05​	0.918​	18.8​
3​	Ed Belfour	62​	0.919​	23.2​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.918​	20.7​
4​	Mike Vernon	49​	0.917​	16.9​	Murray T	1.00​	0.917​	17.4​
5​	Olaf Kolzig	73​	0.917​	24.1​	Wilson Ron	1.00​	0.917​	24.0​
6​	Curtis Joseph	63​	0.915​	19.3​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.916​	22.2​
7​	Patrick Roy	63​	0.914​	15.8​	Hartley	1.02​	0.915​	18.2​
8​	Martin Brodeur	72​	0.91​	10.8​	Ftorek	1.06​	0.915​	19.4​
9​	Jose Theodore	30​	0.919​	10.6​	Vigneault	0.95​	0.915​	7.5​
10​	Roman Turek	67​	0.912​	11.5​	Quenneville	1.02​	0.914​	14.0​

2000-01:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Dominik Hasek	67​	0.921​	30.0​	Ruff	0.99​	0.920​	28.6​
2​	Sean Burke	62​	0.922​	32.9​	Francis B	0.97​	0.919​	28.2​
3​	Mike Dunham	48​	0.923​	26.6​	Trotz	0.94​	0.918​	19.7​
4​	Roman Cechmanek	59​	0.921​	26.6​	Barber	0.95​	0.917​	20.4​
5​	Roberto Luongo	47​	0.920​	22.0​	Sutter Du	0.97​	0.917​	18.5​
6​	Ron Tugnutt	53​	0.917​	20.8​	King Dave	1.00​	0.917​	20.8​
7​	Curtis Joseph	68​	0.915​	21.5​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.916​	24.5​
8​	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	34​	0.911​	7.4​	Charron	1.04​	0.914​	10.9​
9​	Patrick Roy	62​	0.913​	14.4​	Hartley	1.02​	0.914​	16.6​
10​	Patrick Lalime	60​	0.914​	17.7​	Martin	0.99​	0.913​	16.0​

2001-02:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Jose Theodore	67​	0.931​	45.9​	Therrien	0.96​	0.928​	39.8​
2​	Patrick Roy	63​	0.925​	28.3​	Hartley	1.02​	0.926​	30.4​
3​	Nikolai Khabibulin	70​	0.920​	23.6​	Tortorella	1.01​	0.921​	24.6​
4​	Marty Turco	31​	0.921​	8.8​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.919​	7.8​
5​	Milan Hnilicka	60​	0.908​	1.4​	Fraser	1.12​	0.919​	21.2​
6​	Sean Burke	60​	0.920​	20.8​	Francis B	0.97​	0.917​	16.2​
7​	Roman Cechmanek	46​	0.921​	15.3​	Barber	0.95​	0.917​	10.5​
8​	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	53​	0.920​	16.7​	Murray Bry	0.96​	0.916​	11.9​
9​	Tommy Salo	69​	0.913​	9.0​	MacTavish	1.03​	0.915​	13.1​
10​	Martin Biron	72​	0.915​	13.3​	Ruff	0.99​	0.914​	11.8​

2002-03:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1​	Marty Turco	55​	0.932​	31.9​	Tippett	0.98​	0.931​	30.2​
2​	Roman Cechmanek	58​	0.925​	22.7​	Hitchcock	0.98​	0.924​	20.7​
3​	Ed Belfour	62​	0.922​	24.6​	Quinn P	1.02​	0.924​	27.1​
4​	Patrick Roy	63​	0.92​	20.1​	Granato T	0.99​	0.920​	19.1​
5​	Dwayne Roloson	50​	0.927​	23.6​	Lemaire	0.91​	0.919​	13.8​
6​	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	65​	0.92​	20.9​	Babcock	0.99​	0.919​	18.7​
7​	Garth Snow	43​	0.918​	10.1​	Laviolette	1.01​	0.918​	10.8​
8​	Jocelyn Thibault	62​	0.915​	10.1​	Sutter Bri	1.03​	0.917​	14.0​
9​	Manny Fernandez	35​	0.924​	14.6​	Lemaire	0.91​	0.916​	7.2​
10​	Roberto Luongo	65​	0.918​	19.3​	Keenan	0.97​	0.916​	14.8​

And of course we can quibble with some of the different coaching ratings or individuals that are ranked here or there. But I'm not sure Roy's results are that far out of place, in aggregate. That's still obviously a very consistently elite goalie (1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4-5-5-5-6-7-9-9 in save percentage finishes in a 21-30 team league is absolutely an elite inner-tier performance), but the dominant finishes relative to the rest of the league mostly go away (you can maybe still give him credit for 1989-90, since Liut didn't have a lot of GP and may be getting an overly favourable adjustment there).

Elite consistency but not necessarily peaking way ahead of everyone else? To me, that looks a lot like Jacques Plante, to be honest.

On the other hand, Dominik Hasek still has six save percentage titles in this adjusted scenario (as many as Roy has top-3 finishes), and a couple of his peak seasons do look much closer to the pack based on these adjustments, but he still has four years where he obliterates the competition in a way that probably no other goalie ever has (and he did it against a global talent pool that included elite Americans and Europeans). That's why he's my #1, then Plante, then Roy.

... I'll be very blunt.

If Jean Perron has a downward effect on your model-adjusted GSAA percentage, take your model, and throw it in the trash.

... Wait, Jean Perron has a BIGGER downward effect on netminder's GSAA than Ken Hitchcock?... ... Then take the trash, on throw it on the model.

 

[VanIslander]

Hasek was drafted in 1983 by Chicago but it wasn't until the fall of the Soviet Union that he could take his wares west. Tretiak, the Chicago goalie coach, was asked why he was spending so much time with Belfour but not with Hasek, and he aptly replied: He doesn't do anything that i teach. He throws away his stick, he goes to one side and dares shooters to go for the gap, he turns his back to the play, he surges to the blueline... his reflexes, anticipation, strategic thinking and hand-eye coordination were elite, unconventional and repeatedly effective. The fool could stop pucks.