HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 1

overpass · Oct 12, 2024

seventieslord said:
Not trying to open a can of worms here, but a lot of work has been done isolating a lot of different "types" of goals against. Some that matter more, some that matter less... what's left? in a tight playoff game, where almost every goal has some eventual importance, what are "normal" goals that we don't either hold against the goalie to a greater extent, or whitewash away?

I mean, if they allow the first goal, that's bad. if they allow a tying goal that's bad. if they allow a winning goal, that's bad. garbage time goals get disregarded. In the dead puck era, it feels like most goals would be in one of those categories, so what's even left?

The obvious answer is close games matter more, blowouts matter less. Third period performance is either less important (because one team has a comfortable lead) or more important (because it's close). Which you know, of course.

I think the first goal can have extra importance because it can dictate how the rest of the game is played. Especially in low scoring eras where one team can park the bus and make it really hard to score. For example, the DPE Sens were very reliant on getting the first goal because they were much better at scoring on counterattacks than against a team with 5 back. So it was particularly hard if Lalime gave up the first goal. But the first goal hasn't mattered as much in more recent higher scoring seasons, because you just can't defend a lead as well. I'm sure we've all seen the difference.

So the data from teams and eras that we didn't watch can help inform which goals mattered more, if any.

nabby12 · Oct 13, 2024

jigglysquishy said:
The idea of Plante at 1 is becoming increasingly enticing. I didn't vote that way but I'm open to it being a thing.

Sawchuk*

VanIslander · Oct 13, 2024

Goalie or captain are default options when others don't stick out. (Just ask Crosby.)

Plante was the Hart trophy winner in their record 5th consecutive year. Boom Boom won it the year before. Beliveau was a candidate to win it again. Harvey, Richard...

Plante was dead in Hart voting every other year of his career except a late one in Toronto. Plante was not a regular candidate for MVP, but got it suddenly out of the blue, at the tail end of the Habs 5-year dynasty (coincidentally a famous Canadian children's book was popular).

And remember: his Vezinas were automatic formulaic awards, not voted on by peers.

If you respect contemporary opinion, then Vezinas & cups mean a whole lot.less in that era than 1st/2nd team all star selections and the opinions of your opponents (of players NOT on your team; especially of the best of the best who rave about you).

Hall is arguably the 3rd best goalie ever.
In the 1970s i recall lively debates about how Hall & Sawchuk are better than Plante! How Tretiak may be the best ever (this pre-1980s Roy & Hasek).

Plante was a great subject of a popular children's book though.

Dr John Carlson · Oct 13, 2024

Reminder that ballots are due TONIGHT at 11:59 PM ET!

jigglysquishy · Oct 13, 2024

VanIslander said:
and the opinions of your opponents (of players NOT on your team; especially of the best of the best who rave about you).

Do we have any contemporary reports from players raving about Hall?

We certainly do about Sawchuk and Plante.

Beliveau going out of his way to praise Sawchuk is relevant.

Howe explicitly preferring Sawchuk to Hall is relevant.

Bowman praising Sawchuk and Plante is relevant.

Hall is never spoken of poorly. But he isn't heaped with praise like Plante and particularly Sawchuk are.

VanIslander · Oct 13, 2024

"Glenn was a breed apart. Not only for what he did on the ice, but for how he was in the locker room and with fans. In a class by himself." - SCOTTY BOWMAN, after Hall won a record 7th 1st team all star, at least one from each of three different franchises.

ContrarianGoaltender · Oct 13, 2024

There's been a lot of talk about Patrick Roy's elite save percentage results, his number of times leading the league and so on.

I wanted to see how they look after adjusting for coaching, so for all of Roy's seasons from 1986-87 to 2002-03 I used my coaching ratings (and nothing else, these are all the raw ratings with no adjustments) on every goalie season with at least 30 GP, and then ranked them by save percentage.

1986-87 (edited - first table posted had an error):

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Ron Hextall	66	0.902	41.8	Keenan	0.97	0.899	36.5
2	Daniel Berthiaume	31	0.885	4.2	Maloney D	1.07	0.893	10.4
3	Glen Hanlon	36	0.893	13.1	Demers	0.99	0.892	11.7
4	Allan Bester	36	0.889	8.7	Brophy	1.02	0.891	11.3
5	Mark LaForest	5	0.892	1.3	Demers	0.99	0.891	1.2
6	Mario Gosselin	30	0.886	4.7	Bergeron	1.03	0.889	7.0
7	Pokey Reddick	48	0.881	1.7	Maloney D	1.07	0.889	11.6
8	Bob Froese	31	0.885	4.8	Esposito	1.03	0.889	7.9
9	Brian Hayward	37	0.893	13.0	Perron	0.95	0.888	7.7
10	Mike Liut	59	0.885	7.9	Evans	1.03	0.888	12.9
14	Patrick Roy	46	0.891	13.9	Perron	0.95	0.886	7.1

1987-88:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Kelly Hrudey	54	0.896	23.3	Simpson T	1.01	0.896	24.2
2	Greg Stefan	33	0.896	14.9	Demers	0.99	0.895	13.7
3	Patrick Roy	45	0.900	25.0	Perron	0.95	0.895	18.5
4	Tom Barrasso	54	0.896	26.2	Sator	0.99	0.894	24.2
5	Billy Smith	38	0.894	14.6	Simpson T	1.01	0.894	15.3
6	Pete Peeters	35	0.898	16.1	Murray Bry	0.96	0.894	12.3
7	John Vanbiesbrouck	56	0.890	17.3	Bergeron	1.03	0.893	22.2
8	Brian Hayward	39	0.896	17.0	Perron	0.95	0.891	11.5
9	Daniel Berthiaume	56	0.882	2.9	Maloney D	1.07	0.890	14.6
10	Glen Hanlon	47	0.891	14.3	Demers	0.99	0.889	12.5

1988-89:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Jon Casey	55	0.900	31.1	Page	1.01	0.901	32.8
2	Mike Vernon	52	0.897	22.7	Crisp	1.04	0.901	27.2
3	Kari Takko	32	0.899	17.9	Page	1.01	0.900	19.0
4	Patrick Roy	48	0.908	35.2	Burns P	0.90	0.897	22.4
5	Peter Sidorkiewicz	44	0.890	12.8	Pleau	1.02	0.892	15.5
6	Steve Weeks	35	0.892	12.4	McCammon	1.00	0.892	11.9
7	Kirk McLean	42	0.891	14.0	McCammon	1.00	0.891	13.4
8	Ron Hextall	64	0.891	22.3	Holmgren	0.99	0.890	20.8
9	Alan Bester	43	0.890	15.1	Armstrong	1.00	0.890	15.1
10	Daren Puppa	37	0.889	9.1	Sator	0.99	0.887	7.8

1989-90:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Mike Liut	37	0.905	23.0	Ley	1.06	0.910	28.2
2	Patrick Roy	54	0.912	47.4	Burns P	0.90	0.902	32.2
3	Jon Casey	61	0.896	25.9	Page	1.01	0.897	28.0
4	Andy Moog	46	0.893	14.5	Milbury	1.03	0.896	17.9
5	Rejean Lemelin	43	0.892	11.2	Milbury	1.03	0.895	14.2
6	Daren Puppa	56	0.903	35.7	Dudley	0.90	0.893	19.1
7	Chris Terreri	35	0.89	9.3	Cunniff	1.01	0.891	10.4
8	Ken Wregget	51	0.891	16.6	Holmgren	0.99	0.891	15.4
9	Bob Essensa	36	0.891	10.3	Murdoch	0.97	0.888	7.0
10	Vincent Riendeau	43	0.883	2.3	Sutter Bri	1.03	0.886	6.3

1990-91:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Ed Belfour	74	0.910	44.6	Keenan	0.97	0.907	39.9
2	Curtis Joseph	30	0.898	10.6	Sutter Bri	1.03	0.901	13.0
3	Kelly Hrudey	47	0.900	18.6	Webster	1.00	0.900	18.3
4	Andy Moog	51	0.896	13.0	Milbury	1.03	0.899	16.8
5	Don Beaupre	45	0.897	11.8	Murray T	1.00	0.897	12.2
6	Patrick Roy	48	0.906	27.2	Burns P	0.90	0.895	12.7
7	Vincent Riendeau	44	0.892	7.5	Sutter Bri	1.03	0.895	11.1
8	Bob Essensa	55	0.898	17.5	Murdoch	0.97	0.895	12.7
9	Mike Richter	45	0.903	23.7	Neilson	0.92	0.894	11.8
10	Chris Terreri	53	0.893	9.6	Cunniff	1.01	0.894	11.1

1991-92:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Curtis Joseph	60	0.910	43.4	Sutter Bri	1.03	0.913	48.2
2	Bob Essensa	47	0.910	31.4	Paddock	1.02	0.913	34.4
3	Patrick Roy	67	0.914	47.0	Burns P	0.90	0.904	29.4
4	Kirk McLean	65	0.901	23.1	Quinn P	1.02	0.903	26.3
5	Jeff Hackett	42	0.892	4.8	Kingston	1.12	0.903	20.5
6	John Vanbiesbrouck	45	0.910	28.9	Neilson	0.92	0.902	18.3
7	Kelly Hrudey	60	0.897	17.3	Webster	1.00	0.897	16.9
8	Chris Terreri	54	0.888	0.0	McVie	1.08	0.897	12.7
9	Andy Moog	62	0.887	-2.9	Bowness	1.05	0.892	6.1
10	Mike Richter	41	0.901	15.8	Neilson	0.92	0.893	5.3

1992-93:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Curtis Joseph	68	0.911	57.4	Berry	0.96	0.907	49.2
2	Ed Belfour	71	0.906	39.4	Sutter Da	0.95	0.901	29.9
3	John Vanbiesbrouck	48	0.900	23.5	Smith R	1.00	0.900	23.5
4	Felix Potvin	48	0.910	32.0	Burns P	0.90	0.900	18.8
5	Arturs Irbe	36	0.886	1.9	Kingston	1.12	0.898	17.0
6	Bob Essensa	67	0.893	16.9	Paddock	1.02	0.895	22.3
7	Tommy Soderstrom	44	0.892	9.7	Dineen B	1.03	0.895	13.6
8	Daren Puppa	32	0.898	12.0	Muckler	0.96	0.893	7.9
9	Patrick Roy	62	0.894	16.8	Demers	0.99	0.893	14.3
10	Kay Whitmore	31	0.890	4.7	Quinn P	1.02	0.892	6.5

1993-94:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Dominik Hasek	58	0.930	53.9	Muckler	0.960	0.927	49.3
2	John Vanbiesbrouck	57	0.924	55.6	Neilson	0.919	0.917	42.8
3	Patrick Roy	68	0.918	44.2	Demers	0.987	0.917	42.2
4	Darcy Wakaluk	36	0.910	14.6	Gainey	0.998	0.910	14.4
5	Mike Richter	68	0.910	25.5	Keenan	0.973	0.907	21.0
6	Curtis Joseph	71	0.911	36.9	Berry	0.960	0.907	28.0
7	Guy Hebert	52	0.907	17.8	Wilson Ron	0.999	0.907	17.7
8	Martin Brodeur	47	0.915	24.9	Lemaire	0.909	0.907	14.4
9	Sean Burke	47	0.906	16.0	McGuire	1.000	0.906	16.0
10	Daren Puppa	63	0.899	6.8	Crisp	1.036	0.903	12.5

1994-95:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Dominik Hasek	41	0.930	36.4	Muckler	0.960	0.927	32.8
2	Jocelyn Thibault	18	0.917	7.1	Crawford	1.016	0.919	7.6
3	Jim Carey	28	0.913	8.0	Schoenfeld	1.026	0.915	9.5
4	Andy Moog	31	0.915	12.1	Gainey	0.998	0.915	11.9
5	Dominic Roussel	19	0.914	6.3	Murray T	1.004	0.914	6.5
6	Sean Burke	42	0.912	14.6	Holmgren	0.993	0.912	13.8
7	Stephane Fiset	32	0.910	9.2	Crawford	1.016	0.912	10.6
8	Kirk McLean	40	0.904	4.3	Ley	1.061	0.910	10.6
9	Kelly Hrudey	35	0.910	10.3	Melrose	0.996	0.910	9.9
10	Chris Osgood	19	0.917	8.3	Bowman	0.912	0.909	4.3
14	Patrick Roy	43	0.906	7.9	Demers	0.987	0.905	6.3

1995-96:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Daren Puppa	57	0.918	32.0	Crisp	1.04	0.921	36.6
2	Guy Hebert	59	0.914	27.9	Wilson Ron	1.00	0.914	27.8
3	Ron Hextall	53	0.913	19.2	Murray T	1.00	0.914	19.7
4	Dominik Hasek	59	0.92	43.3	Nolan	0.92	0.913	29.7
5	Patrick Roy	61	0.908	17.5	Crawford	1.02	0.910	20.1
6	Jeff Hackett	35	0.916	16.3	Hartsburg	0.93	0.909	10.4
7	Nikolai Khabibulin	53	0.908	16.2	Simpson T	1.01	0.909	17.1
8	Jim Carey	71	0.906	12.7	Schoenfeld	1.03	0.909	16.6
9	Mike Richter	41	0.912	17.0	Campbell	0.96	0.908	12.2
10	Corey Hirsch	41	0.903	5.2	Ley	1.06	0.908	11.7

1996-97:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Patrick Roy	62	0.923	34.3	Crawford	1.02	0.924	36.5
2	Dominik Hasek	67	0.930	54.4	Nolan	0.92	0.924	41.5
3	Jeff Hackett	41	0.927	26.5	Hartsburg	0.93	0.921	19.9
4	Guy Hebert	67	0.919	31.2	Wilson Ron	1.00	0.919	31.1
5	Martin Brodeur	67	0.927	35.6	Lemaire	0.91	0.919	23.5
6	John Vanbiesbrouck	57	0.919	22.7	MacLean D	0.97	0.917	19.3
7	Patrick Lalime	39	0.913	10.1	Johnston E	1.01	0.915	11.6
8	Sean Burke	51	0.914	14.6	Maurice	1.00	0.914	14.3
9	Mike Richter	61	0.917	24.3	Campbell	0.96	0.914	17.1
10	Curtis Joseph	72	0.907	4.3	Low	1.08	0.913	18.6

1997-98:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Dominik Hasek	72	0.932	54.5	Ruff	0.99	0.931	53.0
2	Tom Barrasso	63	0.922	23.9	Constantine	1.03	0.924	27.4
3	Trevor Kidd	47	0.922	19.0	Maurice	1.00	0.921	18.8
4	Olaf Kolzig	64	0.920	23.1	Wilson Ron	1.00	0.920	23.0
5	Patrick Roy	65	0.916	18.1	Crawford	1.02	0.917	20.5
6	Ed Belfour	61	0.916	13.2	Hitchcock	0.98	0.914	11.0
7	Curtis Joseph	71	0.905	-2.8	Low	1.08	0.912	10.2
8	Jeff Hackett	58	0.917	16.5	Hartsburg	0.93	0.911	7.2
9	Ron Hextall	46	0.911	5.1	Cashman	1.00	0.911	5.1
10	Felix Potvin	67	0.906	0.5	Murphy	1.05	0.911	8.6

1998-99:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Dominik Hasek	64	0.937	54.1	Ruff	0.99	0.936	52.9
2	Nikolai Khabibulin	63	0.923	25.0	Schoenfeld	1.03	0.925	28.4
3	Ron Tugnutt	43	0.925	17.7	Martin	0.99	0.925	16.8
4	Arturs Irbe	62	0.923	26.6	Maurice	1.00	0.923	26.3
5	Patrick Roy	61	0.917	15.3	Hartley	1.02	0.918	17.6
6	Byron Dafoe	68	0.926	33.0	Burns P	0.90	0.918	17.9
7	Steve Shields	37	0.921	13.2	Sutter Da	0.95	0.917	9.0
8	Guy Hebert	69	0.922	29.9	Hartsburg	0.93	0.916	17.7
9	Ed Belfour	61	0.915	9.6	Hitchcock	0.98	0.913	7.3
10	Stephane Fiset	42	0.915	8.2	Robinson	0.98	0.913	5.8

1999-00:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Dominik Hasek	35	0.919	13.6	Ruff	0.99	0.918	12.8
2	Jean-Sebastien Aubin	51	0.914	13.1	Brooks	1.05	0.918	18.8
3	Ed Belfour	62	0.919	23.2	Hitchcock	0.98	0.918	20.7
4	Mike Vernon	49	0.917	16.9	Murray T	1.00	0.917	17.4
5	Olaf Kolzig	73	0.917	24.1	Wilson Ron	1.00	0.917	24.0
6	Curtis Joseph	63	0.915	19.3	Quinn P	1.02	0.916	22.2
7	Patrick Roy	63	0.914	15.8	Hartley	1.02	0.915	18.2
8	Martin Brodeur	72	0.91	10.8	Ftorek	1.06	0.915	19.4
9	Jose Theodore	30	0.919	10.6	Vigneault	0.95	0.915	7.5
10	Roman Turek	67	0.912	11.5	Quenneville	1.02	0.914	14.0

2000-01:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Dominik Hasek	67	0.921	30.0	Ruff	0.99	0.920	28.6
2	Sean Burke	62	0.922	32.9	Francis B	0.97	0.919	28.2
3	Mike Dunham	48	0.923	26.6	Trotz	0.94	0.918	19.7
4	Roman Cechmanek	59	0.921	26.6	Barber	0.95	0.917	20.4
5	Roberto Luongo	47	0.920	22.0	Sutter Du	0.97	0.917	18.5
6	Ron Tugnutt	53	0.917	20.8	King Dave	1.00	0.917	20.8
7	Curtis Joseph	68	0.915	21.5	Quinn P	1.02	0.916	24.5
8	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	34	0.911	7.4	Charron	1.04	0.914	10.9
9	Patrick Roy	62	0.913	14.4	Hartley	1.02	0.914	16.6
10	Patrick Lalime	60	0.914	17.7	Martin	0.99	0.913	16.0

2001-02:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Jose Theodore	67	0.931	45.9	Therrien	0.96	0.928	39.8
2	Patrick Roy	63	0.925	28.3	Hartley	1.02	0.926	30.4
3	Nikolai Khabibulin	70	0.920	23.6	Tortorella	1.01	0.921	24.6
4	Marty Turco	31	0.921	8.8	Hitchcock	0.98	0.919	7.8
5	Milan Hnilicka	60	0.908	1.4	Fraser	1.12	0.919	21.2
6	Sean Burke	60	0.920	20.8	Francis B	0.97	0.917	16.2
7	Roman Cechmanek	46	0.921	15.3	Barber	0.95	0.917	10.5
8	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	53	0.920	16.7	Murray Bry	0.96	0.916	11.9
9	Tommy Salo	69	0.913	9.0	MacTavish	1.03	0.915	13.1
10	Martin Biron	72	0.915	13.3	Ruff	0.99	0.914	11.8

2002-03:

Rank	Goalie	GP	SV%	GSAA	Coach	Coach Rating	Adj SV%	Adj GSAA
1	Marty Turco	55	0.932	31.9	Tippett	0.98	0.931	30.2
2	Roman Cechmanek	58	0.925	22.7	Hitchcock	0.98	0.924	20.7
3	Ed Belfour	62	0.922	24.6	Quinn P	1.02	0.924	27.1
4	Patrick Roy	63	0.92	20.1	Granato T	0.99	0.920	19.1
5	Dwayne Roloson	50	0.927	23.6	Lemaire	0.91	0.919	13.8
6	Jean-Sebastien Giguere	65	0.92	20.9	Babcock	0.99	0.919	18.7
7	Garth Snow	43	0.918	10.1	Laviolette	1.01	0.918	10.8
8	Jocelyn Thibault	62	0.915	10.1	Sutter Bri	1.03	0.917	14.0
9	Manny Fernandez	35	0.924	14.6	Lemaire	0.91	0.916	7.2
10	Roberto Luongo	65	0.918	19.3	Keenan	0.97	0.916	14.8

And of course we can quibble with some of the different coaching ratings or individuals that are ranked here or there. But I'm not sure Roy's results are that far out of place, in aggregate. That's still obviously a very consistently elite goalie (1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4-5-5-5-6-7-9-9 in save percentage finishes in a 21-30 team league is absolutely an elite inner-tier performance), but the dominant finishes relative to the rest of the league mostly go away (you can maybe still give him credit for 1989-90, since Liut didn't have a lot of GP and may be getting an overly favourable adjustment there).

Elite consistency but not necessarily peaking way ahead of everyone else? To me, that looks a lot like Jacques Plante, to be honest.

On the other hand, Dominik Hasek still has six save percentage titles in this adjusted scenario (as many as Roy has top-3 finishes), and a couple of his peak seasons do look much closer to the pack based on these adjustments, but he still has four years where he obliterates the competition in a way that probably no other goalie ever has (and he did it against a global talent pool that included elite Americans and Europeans). That's why he's my #1, then Plante, then Roy.

Michael Farkas · Oct 13, 2024

VanIslander said:
Plante was the Hart trophy winner in their record 5th consecutive year. Boom Boom won it the year before. Beliveau was a candidate to win it again. Harvey, Richard...

Plante was dead in Hart voting every other year of his career except a late one in Toronto. Plante was not a regular candidate for MVP, but got it suddenly out of the blue, at the tail end of the Habs 5-year dynasty (coincidentally a famous Canadian children's book was popular).

He did not get it "out of the blue", it was the first year without the best d-man of all time in front of him...and Plante had one of the best years of his career.

Plante received scant consideration in 1959 (2nd among goalies). Also received some weak consideration in '63 as well.

MXD · Oct 13, 2024

ContrarianGoaltender said:
There's been a lot of talk about Patrick Roy's elite save percentage results, his number of times leading the league and so on.

I wanted to see how they look after adjusting for coaching, so for all of Roy's seasons from 1986-87 to 2002-03 I used my coaching ratings (and nothing else, these are all the raw ratings with no adjustments) on every goalie season with at least 30 GP, and then ranked them by save percentage.

1986-87 (edited - first table posted had an error):

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Ron Hextall
66
0.902
41.8
Keenan
0.97
0.899
36.5
2
Daniel Berthiaume
31
0.885
4.2
Maloney D
1.07
0.893
10.4
3
Glen Hanlon
36
0.893
13.1
Demers
0.99
0.892
11.7
4
Allan Bester
36
0.889
8.7
Brophy
1.02
0.891
11.3
5
Mark LaForest
5
0.892
1.3
Demers
0.99
0.891
1.2
6
Mario Gosselin
30
0.886
4.7
Bergeron
1.03
0.889
7.0
7
Pokey Reddick
48
0.881
1.7
Maloney D
1.07
0.889
11.6
8
Bob Froese
31
0.885
4.8
Esposito
1.03
0.889
7.9
9
Brian Hayward
37
0.893
13.0
Perron
0.95
0.888
7.7
10
Mike Liut
59
0.885
7.9
Evans
1.03
0.888
12.9
14
Patrick Roy
46
0.891
13.9
Perron
0.95
0.886
7.1

1987-88:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Kelly Hrudey
54
0.896
23.3
Simpson T
1.01
0.896
24.2
2
Greg Stefan
33
0.896
14.9
Demers
0.99
0.895
13.7
3
Patrick Roy
45
0.900
25.0
Perron
0.95
0.895
18.5
4
Tom Barrasso
54
0.896
26.2
Sator
0.99
0.894
24.2
5
Billy Smith
38
0.894
14.6
Simpson T
1.01
0.894
15.3
6
Pete Peeters
35
0.898
16.1
Murray Bry
0.96
0.894
12.3
7
John Vanbiesbrouck
56
0.890
17.3
Bergeron
1.03
0.893
22.2
8
Brian Hayward
39
0.896
17.0
Perron
0.95
0.891
11.5
9
Daniel Berthiaume
56
0.882
2.9
Maloney D
1.07
0.890
14.6
10
Glen Hanlon
47
0.891
14.3
Demers
0.99
0.889
12.5

1988-89:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Jon Casey
55
0.900
31.1
Page
1.01
0.901
32.8
2
Mike Vernon
52
0.897
22.7
Crisp
1.04
0.901
27.2
3
Kari Takko
32
0.899
17.9
Page
1.01
0.900
19.0
4
Patrick Roy
48
0.908
35.2
Burns P
0.90
0.897
22.4
5
Peter Sidorkiewicz
44
0.890
12.8
Pleau
1.02
0.892
15.5
6
Steve Weeks
35
0.892
12.4
McCammon
1.00
0.892
11.9
7
Kirk McLean
42
0.891
14.0
McCammon
1.00
0.891
13.4
8
Ron Hextall
64
0.891
22.3
Holmgren
0.99
0.890
20.8
9
Alan Bester
43
0.890
15.1
Armstrong
1.00
0.890
15.1
10
Daren Puppa
37
0.889
9.1
Sator
0.99
0.887
7.8

1989-90:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Mike Liut
37
0.905
23.0
Ley
1.06
0.910
28.2
2
Patrick Roy
54
0.912
47.4
Burns P
0.90
0.902
32.2
3
Jon Casey
61
0.896
25.9
Page
1.01
0.897
28.0
4
Andy Moog
46
0.893
14.5
Milbury
1.03
0.896
17.9
5
Rejean Lemelin
43
0.892
11.2
Milbury
1.03
0.895
14.2
6
Daren Puppa
56
0.903
35.7
Dudley
0.90
0.893
19.1
7
Chris Terreri
35
0.89
9.3
Cunniff
1.01
0.891
10.4
8
Ken Wregget
51
0.891
16.6
Holmgren
0.99
0.891
15.4
9
Bob Essensa
36
0.891
10.3
Murdoch
0.97
0.888
7.0
10
Vincent Riendeau
43
0.883
2.3
Sutter Bri
1.03
0.886
6.3

1990-91:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Ed Belfour
74
0.910
44.6
Keenan
0.97
0.907
39.9
2
Curtis Joseph
30
0.898
10.6
Sutter Bri
1.03
0.901
13.0
3
Kelly Hrudey
47
0.900
18.6
Webster
1.00
0.900
18.3
4
Andy Moog
51
0.896
13.0
Milbury
1.03
0.899
16.8
5
Don Beaupre
45
0.897
11.8
Murray T
1.00
0.897
12.2
6
Patrick Roy
48
0.906
27.2
Burns P
0.90
0.895
12.7
7
Vincent Riendeau
44
0.892
7.5
Sutter Bri
1.03
0.895
11.1
8
Bob Essensa
55
0.898
17.5
Murdoch
0.97
0.895
12.7
9
Mike Richter
45
0.903
23.7
Neilson
0.92
0.894
11.8
10
Chris Terreri
53
0.893
9.6
Cunniff
1.01
0.894
11.1

1991-92:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Curtis Joseph
60
0.910
43.4
Sutter Bri
1.03
0.913
48.2
2
Bob Essensa
47
0.910
31.4
Paddock
1.02
0.913
34.4
3
Patrick Roy
67
0.914
47.0
Burns P
0.90
0.904
29.4
4
Kirk McLean
65
0.901
23.1
Quinn P
1.02
0.903
26.3
5
Jeff Hackett
42
0.892
4.8
Kingston
1.12
0.903
20.5
6
John Vanbiesbrouck
45
0.910
28.9
Neilson
0.92
0.902
18.3
7
Kelly Hrudey
60
0.897
17.3
Webster
1.00
0.897
16.9
8
Chris Terreri
54
0.888
0.0
McVie
1.08
0.897
12.7
9
Andy Moog
62
0.887
-2.9
Bowness
1.05
0.892
6.1
10
Mike Richter
41
0.901
15.8
Neilson
0.92
0.893
5.3

1992-93:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Curtis Joseph
68
0.911
57.4
Berry
0.96
0.907
49.2
2
Ed Belfour
71
0.906
39.4
Sutter Da
0.95
0.901
29.9
3
John Vanbiesbrouck
48
0.900
23.5
Smith R
1.00
0.900
23.5
4
Felix Potvin
48
0.910
32.0
Burns P
0.90
0.900
18.8
5
Arturs Irbe
36
0.886
1.9
Kingston
1.12
0.898
17.0
6
Bob Essensa
67
0.893
16.9
Paddock
1.02
0.895
22.3
7
Tommy Soderstrom
44
0.892
9.7
Dineen B
1.03
0.895
13.6
8
Daren Puppa
32
0.898
12.0
Muckler
0.96
0.893
7.9
9
Patrick Roy
62
0.894
16.8
Demers
0.99
0.893
14.3
10
Kay Whitmore
31
0.890
4.7
Quinn P
1.02
0.892
6.5

1993-94:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Dominik Hasek
58
0.930
53.9
Muckler
0.960
0.927
49.3
2
John Vanbiesbrouck
57
0.924
55.6
Neilson
0.919
0.917
42.8
3
Patrick Roy
68
0.918
44.2
Demers
0.987
0.917
42.2
4
Darcy Wakaluk
36
0.910
14.6
Gainey
0.998
0.910
14.4
5
Mike Richter
68
0.910
25.5
Keenan
0.973
0.907
21.0
6
Curtis Joseph
71
0.911
36.9
Berry
0.960
0.907
28.0
7
Guy Hebert
52
0.907
17.8
Wilson Ron
0.999
0.907
17.7
8
Martin Brodeur
47
0.915
24.9
Lemaire
0.909
0.907
14.4
9
Sean Burke
47
0.906
16.0
McGuire
1.000
0.906
16.0
10
Daren Puppa
63
0.899
6.8
Crisp
1.036
0.903
12.5

1994-95:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Dominik Hasek
41
0.930
36.4
Muckler
0.960
0.927
32.8
2
Jocelyn Thibault
18
0.917
7.1
Crawford
1.016
0.919
7.6
3
Jim Carey
28
0.913
8.0
Schoenfeld
1.026
0.915
9.5
4
Andy Moog
31
0.915
12.1
Gainey
0.998
0.915
11.9
5
Dominic Roussel
19
0.914
6.3
Murray T
1.004
0.914
6.5
6
Sean Burke
42
0.912
14.6
Holmgren
0.993
0.912
13.8
7
Stephane Fiset
32
0.910
9.2
Crawford
1.016
0.912
10.6
8
Kirk McLean
40
0.904
4.3
Ley
1.061
0.910
10.6
9
Kelly Hrudey
35
0.910
10.3
Melrose
0.996
0.910
9.9
10
Chris Osgood
19
0.917
8.3
Bowman
0.912
0.909
4.3
14
Patrick Roy
43
0.906
7.9
Demers
0.987
0.905
6.3

1995-96:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Daren Puppa
57
0.918
32.0
Crisp
1.04
0.921
36.6
2
Guy Hebert
59
0.914
27.9
Wilson Ron
1.00
0.914
27.8
3
Ron Hextall
53
0.913
19.2
Murray T
1.00
0.914
19.7
4
Dominik Hasek
59
0.92
43.3
Nolan
0.92
0.913
29.7
5
Patrick Roy
61
0.908
17.5
Crawford
1.02
0.910
20.1
6
Jeff Hackett
35
0.916
16.3
Hartsburg
0.93
0.909
10.4
7
Nikolai Khabibulin
53
0.908
16.2
Simpson T
1.01
0.909
17.1
8
Jim Carey
71
0.906
12.7
Schoenfeld
1.03
0.909
16.6
9
Mike Richter
41
0.912
17.0
Campbell
0.96
0.908
12.2
10
Corey Hirsch
41
0.903
5.2
Ley
1.06
0.908
11.7

1996-97:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Patrick Roy
62
0.923
34.3
Crawford
1.02
0.924
36.5
2
Dominik Hasek
67
0.930
54.4
Nolan
0.92
0.924
41.5
3
Jeff Hackett
41
0.927
26.5
Hartsburg
0.93
0.921
19.9
4
Guy Hebert
67
0.919
31.2
Wilson Ron
1.00
0.919
31.1
5
Martin Brodeur
67
0.927
35.6
Lemaire
0.91
0.919
23.5
6
John Vanbiesbrouck
57
0.919
22.7
MacLean D
0.97
0.917
19.3
7
Patrick Lalime
39
0.913
10.1
Johnston E
1.01
0.915
11.6
8
Sean Burke
51
0.914
14.6
Maurice
1.00
0.914
14.3
9
Mike Richter
61
0.917
24.3
Campbell
0.96
0.914
17.1
10
Curtis Joseph
72
0.907
4.3
Low
1.08
0.913
18.6

1997-98:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Dominik Hasek
72
0.932
54.5
Ruff
0.99
0.931
53.0
2
Tom Barrasso
63
0.922
23.9
Constantine
1.03
0.924
27.4
3
Trevor Kidd
47
0.922
19.0
Maurice
1.00
0.921
18.8
4
Olaf Kolzig
64
0.920
23.1
Wilson Ron
1.00
0.920
23.0
5
Patrick Roy
65
0.916
18.1
Crawford
1.02
0.917
20.5
6
Ed Belfour
61
0.916
13.2
Hitchcock
0.98
0.914
11.0
7
Curtis Joseph
71
0.905
-2.8
Low
1.08
0.912
10.2
8
Jeff Hackett
58
0.917
16.5
Hartsburg
0.93
0.911
7.2
9
Ron Hextall
46
0.911
5.1
Cashman
1.00
0.911
5.1
10
Felix Potvin
67
0.906
0.5
Murphy
1.05
0.911
8.6

1998-99:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Dominik Hasek
64
0.937
54.1
Ruff
0.99
0.936
52.9
2
Nikolai Khabibulin
63
0.923
25.0
Schoenfeld
1.03
0.925
28.4
3
Ron Tugnutt
43
0.925
17.7
Martin
0.99
0.925
16.8
4
Arturs Irbe
62
0.923
26.6
Maurice
1.00
0.923
26.3
5
Patrick Roy
61
0.917
15.3
Hartley
1.02
0.918
17.6
6
Byron Dafoe
68
0.926
33.0
Burns P
0.90
0.918
17.9
7
Steve Shields
37
0.921
13.2
Sutter Da
0.95
0.917
9.0
8
Guy Hebert
69
0.922
29.9
Hartsburg
0.93
0.916
17.7
9
Ed Belfour
61
0.915
9.6
Hitchcock
0.98
0.913
7.3
10
Stephane Fiset
42
0.915
8.2
Robinson
0.98
0.913
5.8

1999-00:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Dominik Hasek
35
0.919
13.6
Ruff
0.99
0.918
12.8
2
Jean-Sebastien Aubin
51
0.914
13.1
Brooks
1.05
0.918
18.8
3
Ed Belfour
62
0.919
23.2
Hitchcock
0.98
0.918
20.7
4
Mike Vernon
49
0.917
16.9
Murray T
1.00
0.917
17.4
5
Olaf Kolzig
73
0.917
24.1
Wilson Ron
1.00
0.917
24.0
6
Curtis Joseph
63
0.915
19.3
Quinn P
1.02
0.916
22.2
7
Patrick Roy
63
0.914
15.8
Hartley
1.02
0.915
18.2
8
Martin Brodeur
72
0.91
10.8
Ftorek
1.06
0.915
19.4
9
Jose Theodore
30
0.919
10.6
Vigneault
0.95
0.915
7.5
10
Roman Turek
67
0.912
11.5
Quenneville
1.02
0.914
14.0

2000-01:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Dominik Hasek
67
0.921
30.0
Ruff
0.99
0.920
28.6
2
Sean Burke
62
0.922
32.9
Francis B
0.97
0.919
28.2
3
Mike Dunham
48
0.923
26.6
Trotz
0.94
0.918
19.7
4
Roman Cechmanek
59
0.921
26.6
Barber
0.95
0.917
20.4
5
Roberto Luongo
47
0.920
22.0
Sutter Du
0.97
0.917
18.5
6
Ron Tugnutt
53
0.917
20.8
King Dave
1.00
0.917
20.8
7
Curtis Joseph
68
0.915
21.5
Quinn P
1.02
0.916
24.5
8
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
34
0.911
7.4
Charron
1.04
0.914
10.9
9
Patrick Roy
62
0.913
14.4
Hartley
1.02
0.914
16.6
10
Patrick Lalime
60
0.914
17.7
Martin
0.99
0.913
16.0

2001-02:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Jose Theodore
67
0.931
45.9
Therrien
0.96
0.928
39.8
2
Patrick Roy
63
0.925
28.3
Hartley
1.02
0.926
30.4
3
Nikolai Khabibulin
70
0.920
23.6
Tortorella
1.01
0.921
24.6
4
Marty Turco
31
0.921
8.8
Hitchcock
0.98
0.919
7.8
5
Milan Hnilicka
60
0.908
1.4
Fraser
1.12
0.919
21.2
6
Sean Burke
60
0.920
20.8
Francis B
0.97
0.917
16.2
7
Roman Cechmanek
46
0.921
15.3
Barber
0.95
0.917
10.5
8
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
53
0.920
16.7
Murray Bry
0.96
0.916
11.9
9
Tommy Salo
69
0.913
9.0
MacTavish
1.03
0.915
13.1
10
Martin Biron
72
0.915
13.3
Ruff
0.99
0.914
11.8

2002-03:

Rank Goalie GP SV% GSAA Coach Coach Rating Adj SV% Adj GSAA
1
Marty Turco
55
0.932
31.9
Tippett
0.98
0.931
30.2
2
Roman Cechmanek
58
0.925
22.7
Hitchcock
0.98
0.924
20.7
3
Ed Belfour
62
0.922
24.6
Quinn P
1.02
0.924
27.1
4
Patrick Roy
63
0.92
20.1
Granato T
0.99
0.920
19.1
5
Dwayne Roloson
50
0.927
23.6
Lemaire
0.91
0.919
13.8
6
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
65
0.92
20.9
Babcock
0.99
0.919
18.7
7
Garth Snow
43
0.918
10.1
Laviolette
1.01
0.918
10.8
8
Jocelyn Thibault
62
0.915
10.1
Sutter Bri
1.03
0.917
14.0
9
Manny Fernandez
35
0.924
14.6
Lemaire
0.91
0.916
7.2
10
Roberto Luongo
65
0.918
19.3
Keenan
0.97
0.916
14.8

And of course we can quibble with some of the different coaching ratings or individuals that are ranked here or there. But I'm not sure Roy's results are that far out of place, in aggregate. That's still obviously a very consistently elite goalie (1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4-5-5-5-6-7-9-9 in save percentage finishes in a 21-30 team league is absolutely an elite inner-tier performance), but the dominant finishes relative to the rest of the league mostly go away (you can maybe still give him credit for 1989-90, since Liut didn't have a lot of GP and may be getting an overly favourable adjustment there).

Elite consistency but not necessarily peaking way ahead of everyone else? To me, that looks a lot like Jacques Plante, to be honest.

On the other hand, Dominik Hasek still has six save percentage titles in this adjusted scenario (as many as Roy has top-3 finishes), and a couple of his peak seasons do look much closer to the pack based on these adjustments, but he still has four years where he obliterates the competition in a way that probably no other goalie ever has (and he did it against a global talent pool that included elite Americans and Europeans). That's why he's my #1, then Plante, then Roy.

... I'll be very blunt.

If Jean Perron has a downward effect on your model-adjusted GSAA percentage, take your model, and throw it in the trash.

... Wait, Jean Perron has a BIGGER downward effect on netminder's GSAA than Ken Hitchcock?... ... Then take the trash, on throw it on the model.

VanIslander · Oct 13, 2024

Hasek was drafted in 1983 by Chicago but it wasn't until the fall of the Soviet Union that he could take his wares west. Tretiak, the Chicago goalie coach, was asked why he was spending so much time with Belfour but not with Hasek, and he aptly replied: He doesn't do anything that i teach.

He throws away his stick, he goes to one side and dares shooters to go for the gap, he turns his back to the play, he surges to the blueline... his reflexes, anticipation, strategic thinking and hand-eye coordination were elite, unconventional and repeatedly effective. The fool could stop pucks.

Weztex · Oct 13, 2024

I really struggle juggling with Sawchuk. I still have so many questions but mostly, are we romanticizing him and if yes, to what extent?

75-80% of his legacy/appreciation seems to come from his dominant 5 years with the Wings. Yet, we also have Bowman saying how Detroit boasted the best defensive squad in the league during that time. How impactful was it on the perception people had?

We have Beliveau giving him praise but it's worth noting that Sawchuk was the best goalie in the league when Beliveau came along. Does that result in him making a bigger impression?

We've also shown that passed age 25, his body of work is significantly outclassed by Plante and Hall. Hall having almost double the elite seasons Sawchuk had, are his playoff resume and peak that worse than he definitely ranks him behind?

And the one I hate to bring up (but have to), how does his tragic death weights in on the abundance of quotes we can found about him? Don't get me wrong, Sawchuk was at one point the best goalie ever. But does him passing while still being active gave us a lot more tributes and positive comments from players/staff reminiscing about him that we would have otherwise? In other words, was he called the greatest ever as often in 1969 as he was in 1971? I know the question is blunt, but since we're working with a lot of quotes from that era, I think it's a legitimate one.

Hockey Outsider · Oct 13, 2024

I've caught up on reading this thread after being away last week. A very high quality discussion - it sets the bar high for future rounds (which I'll try to participate in, even if it's less than usual).

Michael Farkas · Oct 13, 2024

Didn't want to lose sight of this...

The Ottawa Journal - Oct 9 1952 said:
"Don't even mention sale when it comes to Bower. We just don't talk about sales where he is concerned. I've said it before, and I say it again, that there are only two goalies in all hockey who might be better than Bower."

"Well, go ahead and name them," countered T.P.

"Terry Sawchuk", answered Lex Cook.

Then Lex paused and said,: "I'll do better. Just Sawchuk. After that it's Bower and he'll run Terry a real close second. He's not for sale and neither is anybody else on the Cleveland club. We're through raising hockey players for the National League. We're a big league city and we're keeping it that way."

MXD · Oct 13, 2024

Michael Farkas said:
Didn't want to lose sight of this...

At that point, Frank Brimsek was retired, Jacques Plante had never set foot out of Québec, Glenn Hall was all of 20 years old spending his first season in the AHL (where he appeared to not have done THAT great, but that was a team icing a very positively ancient Ott Heller as a regular on D). Meaning, they aren't in the comparison here, or at least not-meaningfully.

So... Basically, for our purposes, that means Terry Sawchuk was superior to a very old Turk Broda, Gerry McNeil, Al Rollins and the likes, and if that was in question, we probably shouldn't have been discussing Sawchuk this round.

As for Bower, well, it could mean something... It could also mean he was, at his peak, better than all those guys. Which is probably not super controversial. But it's a reminder that his career doesn't start in 1958.

Weztex · Oct 13, 2024

Michael Farkas said:
Didn't want to lose sight of this...

I don't think anyone here is doubting Sawchuk as the best goalie on earth in 1952, if that's what you're implying. As MXD said, the first half of the 50's weren't the heydays of goaltending.

Vilica · Oct 14, 2024

I have a bit of a random question regarding the 1st half/2nd half voting - do we know when the cutoffs were/when the votes were done? Was it the same time each year, or did it move? I'm guessing that it was around the new year, splitting the season in half.

The problem I have with counting votes (though I give them credibility) is that there's no depth of competition. Ignore the names and just look at the stats, and there's a whole lot of ordinary 35 game samples that received the most votes in a half (though they were the best of the 6 goalie-seasons).

bobholly39 · Oct 14, 2024

Coming into this first vote, here's what I felt very strongly about:

- Roy/Hasek definitely top 2 in some order
- Plante the only other goalie with a case for #1 - but, less strong, and so likely #3
- Tretiak/Dryden as bottom 2 in some order

None of the above changed for me 2 weeks later, and it's how I ended up voting. I think for me, it's Hall/Sawchuk/Brodeur who had the most room for movement in this round, and I did consider a lot of different rankings before voting yesterday. I'm very eager to see how their final rankings end up.

I kind of expect 6 goalies to be voted in round 1 - I suspect Dryden/Tretiak are far behind the other 6, and are the only 2 to make it to round 2.

Hoping we got a good turnout of voters for the first one.

Michael Farkas · Oct 14, 2024

Weztex said:
I don't think anyone here is doubting Sawchuk as the best goalie on earth in 1952, if that's what you're implying. As MXD said, the first half of the 50's weren't the heydays of goaltending.

Certainly not. And like MXD said, it's sort of lower point of goaltending. But it also takes some steam out of "well, Bower was still probably the 6th or 7th best goalie in the world" - it was probably much better than that the whole time and he was restrained. He's the best non-NHL goalie ever through expansion, right? In case, his extended AHL time gives folks any pause when the time comes...

HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 1

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