HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Michael Farkas]

If peers are the best judge of performance, there can be only two candidates for the mantle of top goalie in 2003-04. -

In a poll of 52 NHL netminders asked to name the best goalie in the league, New Jersey’s Martin Brodeur narrowly edged Florida’s Roberto Luongo by a count of 23 to 18. Goalies were not allowedto vote for themselves or any other masked man on their own team.

Ten goalies received votes in all. Toronto’s Ed Belfour, with three votes, and Dallas’s Marty Turco, with two, were the only others who had support from more than one source.

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...
Brad Park: “I played with three goaltenders who could really handle the puck: Ed Giacomin, Gilles Villemure and Gerry Cheevers. Ed Giacomin had the best shot. Cheesy was the best stickhandler, Villemure was a combination of both.

“Peter Peeters can shoot it out with the best of them. And he’s learning to stickhandle. He’s really moving the puck well when the guys are coming at him. I don’t think they let him handle the puck that much in Philadelphia.”

Peeters, who came to Boston last summer from the Philadelphia Flyers in exchange for defenseman Brad McCrimmon, agrees that he was bound by too many restrictions during his five years in the Flyers’ organization.

“I think basically I’m getting back to my own style,” he said. “When I was in Philadelphia, they really had me programmed. Do this. Do that. They wouldn’t let me come out of the net. They wouldn’t let me wander and here Gerry’s letting me go.

“I think I’m a lot more aggressive. I’m attacking the puck when they fire it into the comer. I want to get on top of it. I want to handle it. Sometimes I make a few mistakes. I’m gonna get burned sometimes but you expect that.”

Differences in goalie coaches Bernie Parent (Philadelphia) and Gerry Cheevers (Boston), though Cheevers was the head coach (also?) at the time of this.

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...
Goaltender equipment manufacturers and equipment managers, however, offer yet another factor. They claim some goalies were cheating, using pads and other equipment with blocking areas that are larger than printed NHL maximums.

They also claim not enough was done to check or ban the illegal gear.

First, the NHL equipment standards can be subject to broad interpretation. Second, the use of fatter pads and other items was so widespread that coaches didn’t complain. The bench bosses didn’t ask officials to check if opposing netminders had the oversized gear because, in many cases, their own goalies also were using it.

“Personally, I suspect that the lower GAA were a direct result of the leniency that the NHL had on enforcing size rules on goalie equipment, particularly the 12-inch wide pad,” said Brian Heaton, who oversees the Heaton and Koho goalie lines for Karhu.

“I’ve certainly heard of requests from some goalkeepers who, on a custom basic wanted wider equipment,” said Ned Goldsmith, a Vaughn Custom Sports’ design engineer. “If that’s want they want, manufacturers will build it for them. But we wouldn’t put anything like that on the shelf at a dealer that could get a goalie booted out of a game.”

Various goal equipment makers have different opinions about oversized gear. Some like, Goldsmith, say its use is still relatively infrequent. Others say it us becoming more commonplace and quietly accepted.

“A lot of the coaches know that the pads are illegal, but they don’t say anything to they officials,” said one equipment maker. They’re all 13-inches wide, so they’re all on equal playing ground.”

Regardless if pads are intentionally made wider, they can fatten somewhat through routine use. “Pads will widen on their own and change shape,” Heaton said.

...

If on-ice officials suspect a goalie is using illegal equipment once a game starts, they won’t stop the contest to measure. However, the referee is empowered to check the equipment between periods. If the gear is not within standards, the goaltender must change to regulation-sized gear before he can continue playing.

If it’s determined that a goaltender used illegal equipment in a game, a report is filed by a supervisor with the NHL’s officiating office in Toronto. In turn, the issue is referred to the commissioner’s office for review and possible discipline, such as a fine.

“Actually, catch gloves might be more of a problem,” said Harris, noting that trappers must not exceed eight inches at the cuff and 15 inches at their widest point. “A couple of years ago, one company I think it was Cooper, added some webbing on the outside. It was a monstrosity. We told them there was no use manufacturing that stuff because we wouldn’t allow it.”

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I did not write this article, I promise.

There are lies, damn lies and goalie statistics.

...

“It’s always hard to analyze goaltender stats,” said Rand Simon, who specializes in research for the Newport Sports Management agency “Look at the Canadian Olympic team. The goalies are Curtis Joseph, Martin Brodeur and Ed Belfour. None of them are in the league leaders in goalie stats. There must be something else.”

Phoenix goalie Sean Burke seconded that.

“I always thought there was a better way,” Burke said. “When I did my own contract in Hartford, I came up with some categories of my own.”

The Hockey News surveyed nearly a dozen goalies and goalie watchers and found a consensus that NHL goalie stats do not tell the whole story.

...

“They already have the only stat they need - wins,” said Grant Fuhr

..

“Wins and losses are the most overrated stat there is for a goalie,” [Sean Burke] snapped. “Obviously, wins are the only stat that matters from a team standpoint. But it’s not an individual stat in hockey, like it is in golf or tennis. Everybody plays on a different team. Guys on good teams have good stats. Guys on bad teams have bad stats.”

Philadelphia’s Brian Boucher countered: “If you’re on a bad team you get more shots. You’ll have more chances to make saves and your save percentage will better…But it’s tough for a goalie when you face fewer shots. You give up a couple that you had no chance on and your save percentage stinks.”

...

So what do goalies see quantified in their statistical dreams?

“First and foremost, saves at big times of the hockey game,” Fuhr said.

“Quality shots,” said Burke, with St. Louis’s Fred Brathwaite and Boucher in agreement.

“Scoring chances,” said Calgary’s Roman Turek.

Yet scoring chances, which are followed closely by coaching staffs, are not on official goalie records because there’s no clearcut definition. If Detroit’s Brett Hull and Tomas Holmstrom take a slapshot from the same spot, is it the same scoring chance?

...

Edmonton goalie Tommy Salo says stats aren’t needed at all. “You know when a goalie’s good. You don’t have to see the stats.”

Boucher agreed: “People should just watch the game a little more closely.

“Judge a goaltender by that, and not by picking up the paper and reading the box score.”

 

[EddieTheEagle]

Allow me to submit my unbiased opinion...

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Agreed with the thesis, but also want to get agreement that "the eye test" has weaknesses of its own. Professional scouts do have both skill and exposure advantages to the general hockey public, but cognitive biases impact every single one of us.

Statistics do have benefits.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Agreed with the thesis, but also want to get agreement that "the eye test" has weaknesses of its own. Professional scouts do have both skill and exposure advantages to the general hockey public, but cognitive biases impact every single one of us.

Statistics do have benefits.

Goalie stats would probably benefit from a combination of both, progressively. You could likely (possibly? maybe? I wouldn't downgrade it below "maybe") be fine with just evaluating goals against based on quality and timing...while ignoring saves...and be better off than pure GAA or save pct.

I did this for a time in the Fleury/Murray split time situation.

 

[Michael Farkas]

@Doctor No you have a VAR stat on your site. Have you found yourself able to derive (or theorize) any conclusions with that? Whether solo or in conjunction with another stat(s) that points towards positive performance?

(He notes on his site that you can be "consistent" (that is, not varying much) good and consistent bad).

I ask because I'm watching Tony Esposito a good bit this morning...and it seems like his good is very good and is bad is quite bad. It almost feels like goals just pile on him once he gives one up.

I'd still take old Esposito over young Liut, I'll say that much. Liut has been a disappointment in my viewings thus far, I had a thought that he might be a sleeper candidate.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Goalie stats would probably benefit from a combination of both, progressively. You could likely (possibly? maybe? I wouldn't downgrade it below "maybe") be fine with just evaluating goals against based on quality and timing...while ignoring saves...and be better off than pure GAA or save pct.

I did this for a time in the Fleury/Murray split time situation.

Agreed completely - when I worked with my goalies, it was a fair mix of qualitative and quantitative. Heck, the most consistently valuable thing that we did began with the question "how did goal X go into the net?" And we'd explore that with both goalies - the one on the bench and the one in the net. Sometimes we'd spend ten minutes on a goal (sometimes we'd say "ah heck" and move on immediately).

I still have my logbooks, and I actually still do this exercise when I play my own games in net. (Current focus items - I guess too much late in games when I'm tired, sometimes I cheat a bit when there's a defensemen screening me where I assume they'll block the shot and then they don't because it's beer league, and when someone's at the top of my crease I have a tendency to sit deeper in the net than I should instead of being a bit of a dick).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

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Differences in goalie coaches Bernie Parent (Philadelphia) and Gerry Cheevers (Boston), though Cheevers was the head coach (also?) at the time of this.

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I did not write this article, I promise.

Sounds like even goalies themselves don't know how to evaluate goalies.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sometimes we'd spend ten minutes on a goal (sometimes we'd say "ah heck" and move on immediately)

You're in good company. I was talking to a prominent NHL goalie consultant years ago at a coaching clinic...and we were looking at a goal that his client gave up, and I asked, "What do you even tell the goalie after this one?"

- Turnaround and get a drink.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sounds like even goalies themselves don't know how to evaluate goalies.

It's very tricky, indeed. And you can even see them staking a claim for their own piece of the pie in that article...

Grant Fuhr - who gave up 20,000 goals a season, says "wins matter"
Sean Burke - who played on teams that didn't win games, says "I made up my own stat categories"
Brian Boucher - who played for a team that gave up the third fewest shots per game in that 3-year window, says, "save pct. isn't good unless you face shots because everyone gives up the same amount of goals."
Tommy Salo - who...had nothin' going on and whose most famous moment is being a bad goalie...says, "stats don't matter at all...just watch the games" (which also doesn't benefit Salo, in my opinion).

So, it's everyone just trying to carve out their little niche for themselves in terms of what matters. Ultimately, it's got to start with fundamentals, scalability, and consistency. Then we can branch out from there...

 

[Michael Farkas]

How badly would this have hurt Tretiak's legacy...?

Soviet goaltending legend Vladislav Tretiak has apparently changed his mind about playing in the NHL. At age 36, he was considering a comeback with the Detroit Red Wings.

Tretiak, inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame last October, approached the Red Wings in January about the possibility of making his NHL debut—five years after he last played competitive hockey—but the NHL nixed the plan.

...

And the Wings, desperate for goal-tending help until the recall of rookie Tim Cheveldae, took him seriously enough to investigate the possibility of signing him to a contract through next season.

“We’ve had some serious questions about our goaltending and it’s something we looked at very seriously,” coach Jacques Demers said. “At least the organization is not sitting pat. We were trying.”

They may continue trying. Until the league notified the Wings they could not sign Tretiak, they had planned a scouting trip to see him tend goal for a Soviet oldtimers’ team against a group of former Canadian NHL players in a re-enactment of the 1972 series between the two nations.

Demers said on Feb. 16 that using a late-round pick to select Tretiak in the June entry draft is not improbable.

...

The Montreal Canadiens hoped to make it possible when they drafted him in the seventh round in 1983. But, it never happened, and the Canadiens released his rights in July, 1986.

In order for an NHL team to sign a European player like Tretiak, he must have been drafted and released twice, a league spokesman said. Tretiak was drafted only once.
...

Also, the article suggests that Tretiak is 36. But at the time of print, he was on the verge of his 38th birthday. Maybe just a typo?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

You're in good company. I was talking to a prominent NHL goalie consultant years ago at a coaching clinic...and we were looking at a goal that his client gave up, and I asked, "What do you even tell the goalie after this one?"

- Turnaround and get a drink.

I had one like that on Sunday - shot from the right defenseman on their point, which I identified as not a shot but a pass to the forward camping unguarded to my right at the top of the crease. I butterflied over to the right spot just in time to see my own defenseman knock the puck out of the air and deflect it just expertly under the crossbar.

But we had donuts after the game so it's all good.

 

[Professor What]

Fifteen days until lists are due. How are you guys coming along?

I've got a list, but I'm not satisfied. Probably never will be though. Lol

 

[jigglysquishy]

Fifteen days until lists are due. How are you guys coming along?

I've got a list, but I'm not satisfied. Probably never will be though. Lol

I got my list done. I'm fairly satisfied with my top 25, a little satisfied with 26-50, and not at all 51-80.

Lots of weak goalies in the end spots.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I just keep adding to my tiers as I walk backwards through time basically. It's getting a little harder as I work back into the 70s to be honest. I find myself second guessing it a bit because one game a guy will look really good and at other times...yuck. I also didn't start at the canonized "top" either which may be a factor.

Haven't added any "A" guys since Patrick Roy...yet.

Once I get through and I have my tiers, I just hope I have 80 names...it's not tracking very well right now, as the league is about to get a lot smaller in a decade or so. I guess, less than 80 is fine...because I'll have a few guys in the low-film/no-film era and hope not to regret it...

 

[jigglysquishy]

I just keep adding to my tiers as I walk backwards through time basically. It's getting a little harder as I work back into the 70s to be honest. I find myself second guessing it a bit because one game a guy will look really good and at other times...yuck. I also didn't start at the canonized "top" either which may be a factor.

Haven't added any "A" guys since Patrick Roy...yet.

Once I get through and I have my tiers, I just hope I have 80 names...it's not tracking very well right now, as the league is about to get a lot smaller in a decade or so. I guess, less than 80 is fine...because I'll have a few guys in the low-film/no-film era and hope not to regret it...

Are you still going to make goalie videos?

I think it would be a huge asset before we submit lists.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Are you still going to make goalie videos?

I think it would be a huge asset before we submit lists.

I am chipping away at a couple, yes.

 

[MXD]

The last name I've put down is Tiny Thompson.

Who...
- Looked great on a team for which his successor looked even better
- Looked average at best on a team for which his less heralded predecessor looked a tad better as a whole, AND his even less heralded successor looked better. However, Thompson wasn't getting any younger and had quite a bit of mileage,

In other words, I'm probably a bit further than you think I am.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Further to some of the talk about goalie coaching, I found this article about Frank Brimsek a few weeks ago but forgot to post it. I noticed it at first because it explicitly states that Brimsek had never received any tips or training on how to play the position. I guess it's not that much but I found it interesting, so you may too.

One thing you'll often see during this era is good goalies being referred to as 'cool' in net. I'd never really understood what that meant, but from everything I've been able to gather, if a goalie is called 'cool', then it means they display strong economy of movement, and don't need to go down to the ice often to make stops. In other words, the opposite of a battler. I didn't track this or anything, but it seemed like of the great 40s goalers, Brimsek and Bill Durnan were commonly considered 'cool' goalies, more so than Turk Broda.

Brimsek was one of the coolest customers between the pipes, it would seem, and drew comparisons to Georges Vezina, both in talent and style:

Doug Vaughan, of the Windsor Star, suggests Brimsek is accumulating enough votes with each appearance to be rated with the greatest goalies of them all. He figures that before the Boston custodian calls it quits he will have achieved a niche alongside the generally acknowledged peer of goalies, the late Georges Vezina.

...

Yet most who have watched the stylish Brimsek don't underrate this custodian, who plays shots in the same cool fashion and, like Vezina, disdains the sprawling style first used by Percy LeSueur and developed to a high degree of effectiveness by [Clint] Benedict.

Curiously enough, Brimsek at the time he was making a name for himself as an amateur goalie, had never heard of Vezina. He confessed that to this corner one time in the course of a fanning bee when someone hinted he had patterned himself after 'Vezy,' who at all times was a frigid figure under the heaviest pressure.

Vaughan marvels at Brimsek's coolness under fire, the style that keeps him on his feet more than any other goalie in hockey today. The Windsor writer claims he has yet to see the Boston goalie out-feinted, make the first move when a puck carrier moves in on the Boston citadel.

Young athletes as a rule pattern themselves after stars of the game whom they have watched as youngsters. Brimsek never did that and can't recall anyone giving him pointers. If they did, he never paid much attention to them, because all the time he was developing a style that seemed at once most natural and effective.

'Lots of people say I take after Vezina,' he once told this reporter, 'but I never heard of Vezina until after I was in the big time. It just seemed the natural thing for me to stay up as a young goalie, and as I went along nothing in my experience proved I was wrong.'

Unlike some established stars of the game, Brimsek never advises a young goalie to adopt his style. 'I suppose if I had discovered it easier to stop pucks by going down on the ice, I would have done that and fallen more. I stay up because that's the way I can handle them best. Plenty of goalies go down for them and do just as well. I never forced myself to stay up. I just found it easier that way. I figure I'm beaten once I'm down on the ice.'

Most sharp-shooters will tell you Brimsek is the most 'stubborn' goalie in the world when it comes to trying to make him move first. Long ago he discovered that the successful hockey sniper was taught and developed the art of feinting. Make the goalie move first, as a rule, and you have him at your mercy.

Consequently potential scorers have that in mind from the time they hit the blueline and have avoided a defence. They'll try to make the goalie move, which is a procedure that entails moving very close sometimes. Brimsek finds that 'right own my alley'.

'The closer a player comes in on me, the better I like it,' he tells you. 'Some of them think they improve their chances when they get on a goalie's doorstep. As long as they do that it's fine with me. They haven't so much room when they are in close. The hardest shot in the game to handle is one from about 15 feet out, say about the red line, and not off the ice.'

 

[Michael Farkas]

Brimsek had never received any tips or training on how to play the position

Tony Esposito said the same thing after the age of 17 or something...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Woah...Sweden's backup (who starts against Canada) in Canada Cup '84 is horrendous...some name I can't make heads or tails of...it almost sounds someone trying to pronounce something Italian in a restaurant...starts with a "W"...brutal 'tender.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Woah...Sweden's backup (who starts against Canada) in Canada Cup '84 is horrendous...some name I can't make heads or tails of...it almost sounds someone trying to pronounce something Italian in a restaurant...starts with a "W"...brutal 'tender.

If Gote Walitalo is on your watch list, you watch too many goalies.

I'd put him third among those Swedish goalies, behind Ridderwall and Lindmark.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If Gote Walitalo is on your watch list, you watch too many goalies.

I'd put him third among those Swedish goalies, behind Ridderwall and Lindmark.

Heh, that's it. I wasn't intending to watch him. I was assuming it was Peeters vs. Lindmark trying to officially cross them off. Instead, I got that absolute mess...

Looks like he mopped up (relatively speaking) in the Elitserien in the 80's too...not a great sign for that league at that time...

 

[overpass]

Further to some of the talk about goalie coaching, I found this article about Frank Brimsek a few weeks ago but forgot to post it. I noticed it at first because it explicitly states that Brimsek had never received any tips or training on how to play the position. I guess it's not that much but I found it interesting, so you may too.

Love the article!

Interesting that Brimsek of all goalies said he didn't receive any coaching. He was from the town of Eveleth, Minnesota, as were Mike Karakas and Sam LoPresti. One third of the starting goalies in the NHL for a few years around 1940 were from Eveleth. I would have guessed they got some common coaching, but maybe not.

 

[tony d]

Working on mine and doing researach. Be interesting to see how many current guys make the final list.

 

[nabby12]

Further to some of the talk about goalie coaching, I found this article about Frank Brimsek a few weeks ago but forgot to post it. I noticed it at first because it explicitly states that Brimsek had never received any tips or training on how to play the position. I guess it's not that much but I found it interesting, so you may too.

One thing you'll often see during this era is good goalies being referred to as 'cool' in net. I'd never really understood what that meant, but from everything I've been able to gather, if a goalie is called 'cool', then it means they display strong economy of movement, and don't need to go down to the ice often to make stops. In other words, the opposite of a battler. I didn't track this or anything, but it seemed like of the great 40s goalers, Brimsek and Bill Durnan were commonly considered 'cool' goalies, more so than Turk Broda.

Brimsek was one of the coolest customers between the pipes, it would seem, and drew comparisons to Georges Vezina, both in talent and style:

Love the article!

Interesting that Brimsek of all goalies said he didn't receive any coaching. He was from the town of Eveleth, Minnesota, as were Mike Karakas and Sam LoPresti. One third of the starting goalies in the NHL for a few years around 1940 were from Eveleth. I would have guessed they got some common coaching, but maybe not.

I actually wrote the book on Brimsek a few years back. If anyone wants a PDF of the book, feel free to reach out and I'm sure we can make something work. It was a very fascinating tale on an underrated goaltender still today for being top 15 of all time.

Brimsek, Karakas, and LoPresti were actually all coached by Cliff Thompson at Eveleth High School. Thompson was later inducted into the US Hockey Hall of Fame. Brimsek himself cited that Thompson was instrumental in his development, and had a knack of working with goalies.

CLIFF THOMPSON

US Hockey Hall of Fame Museum

www.ushockeyhall.com